When will music critics get over punk?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

My prediction: 2017.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:31 (eighteen years ago)

Dookie > the entire Clash discography, by the way. Strummer could never have written anything a tenth as good as "Welcome to Paradise".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:32 (eighteen years ago)

Dookie vs. The Clash = Forest Green Rovers vs. Northwich Victoria on a particularly muddy February pitch

― You've Got Scourage On Your Breath (Haberdager), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:35 (eighteen years ago)

I dunno, dude, I dig the grooves of later Clash stuff. The punk bollocks I can happily ignore 90% of though.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:36 (eighteen years ago)

But, hey kids, joking aside, when will punk stop being the great signifier of musical revolution in crit shorthand? I mean, yeah, 1977 changed everything, but so did 1979, 1968, 1954, 1983, 1995, 1991, 1999, 2003, etc.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:37 (eighteen years ago)

And 2006 as well, what with "I Write Sins, Not Tragedies".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:38 (eighteen years ago)

When you become NME editor, Dom! Ask a silly question...

― You've Got Scourage On Your Breath (Haberdager), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:41 (eighteen years ago)

OK, Dom, we get it.

― A Radio Picture (Rrrickey), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:43 (eighteen years ago)

um dom if yer going to big up green day shirley the question is: when will shitty-ass guitar-bands get over punk?

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:44 (eighteen years ago)

dookie is as crap as all punk ever. probably even worse.

there's that nationalism thing again though isn't there...punk seems a uniquely british thing, and framing everything around it seems part and parcel of this desperate rage-against-dying-of-light desire to remind everyone, over and over again, that despite all this foreign muck of the past decade or so, britain WAS relevant to pop music once, we invented the damn sport, ah back when half the map was pink &c &c.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:44 (eighteen years ago)

Are you saying "punk" is more " British" than, let's pick one out of the hat here, rave?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:45 (eighteen years ago)

what unites the uk rock press, pop press and indie press? residual suspicion of american music and default get-these-yanks-out-of-our-charts rhetoric.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

lex, here's where knowing about old things could come in handy.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

There are always plenty of genuinely exciting things going on in British music, and American music (but probably not Italian or Swiss), if people just look. That top 100 album sellers of 2006 list is full of dross, because they always are.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

punk seems a uniquely british thing

Lex this is going to be one of yr statements that gets 500 replies. Anyway - no, people all over the world are as precious about punk as the Brits are. I think you could make a case that in the UK it's a particular narrative of punk that's been mythologised, and in the US (and elsewhere) it's a sound, or set of ideals or principles.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:47 (eighteen years ago)

Sadly he will be the next Alexis Petridis.

― jimn (jimnaseum), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:47 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.talking-heads.net/graphics/th/posterpunkrock.jpg

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:47 (eighteen years ago)

xpost. That isn't the Lex.

― jimn (jimnaseum), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:48 (eighteen years ago)

UK punk was pretty dismal, with a couple of exceptions. the americans did it so much better.

dead kennedys + black flag + bad brains + minor threat = all the punk you'll ever need.

― mister the guanoman (mister the guanoman), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:50 (eighteen years ago)

avril lavigne = all the punk you'll ever need

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:51 (eighteen years ago)

4Skins and Skrewdriver = all the punk you'll ever need.

― Raw Patrick (Raw Patrick), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:52 (eighteen years ago)

Lex posts = http://www.miurano.com/enjoyimac/greeting/pao2002.gif

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:54 (eighteen years ago)

what unites the uk rock press, pop press and indie press? residual suspicion of american music and default get-these-yanks-out-of-our-charts rhetoric.

just. plain. bollocks.

a few recent cover stars from those publications I read...

plan b: the gossip, deerhoof, sunn o)))/boris
the wire: melvins, joanna newsom, smegma
rock-a-rolla: melvins, mike patton, sunn o)))/boris
terrorizer: rotting christ, mastodon, gojira
I don't buy it any more, but kerrang's cover stars are always, always americans. usually panic at the disco as far as I can tell.

not much UK love in there.

however, NME seems to have razorlight or the artic monkeys on the cover every week, so fair play.

― mister the guanoman (mister the guanoman), Monday, 8 January 2007 10:59 (eighteen years ago)

what unites the uk rock press, pop press and indie press? residual suspicion of american music and default get-these-yanks-out-of-our-charts rhetoric.

when oh when will uncut magazine get of the fence and start talking seriously about americana, the little-englander xenophobic BASTARDS.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:01 (eighteen years ago)

4Skins and Skrewdriver = all the punk you'll ever need.

mmm. casual nazism. well done.

did you hear about ian stewart? he went too far to the right.*

(*shit joke for those of you aware that the lead nazi twat of skrewdriver was killed when he drove his car into the central reservation. sheer poetry.)

― mister the guanoman (mister the guanoman), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:02 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.stylusmagazine.com/comments.html

wtf is this shite passantino

― South Adelaide Gangsta (patog27), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:02 (eighteen years ago)

i think what the lex describes there DOES exist but it's merely the opposite side of a constantly spinning coin in mainstream UK music press.

― reverto levidensis (blueski), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:02 (eighteen years ago)

It's a black guy thing, you wouldn't understand.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:03 (eighteen years ago)

i think it existed for a few months in 1995-96, but lex wasn't even born then.

xpost

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:04 (eighteen years ago)

ouch

― South Adelaide Gangsta (patog27), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:06 (eighteen years ago)

what unites the uk rock press, pop press and indie press? residual suspicion of american music and default get-these-yanks-out-of-our-charts rhetoric.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41040000/jpg/_41040452_touch_203.jpg

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:07 (eighteen years ago)

People have been suspicious about American culture encroaching upon whatever and wherever since the year dot. It's hardly unique to the music press or Britain or even music in general.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:08 (eighteen years ago)

King George III to thread.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:09 (eighteen years ago)

i think it existed for a few months in 1995-96, but lex wasn't even born then.

crap. why would it have existed for that time only?

― reverto levidensis (blueski), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:09 (eighteen years ago)

Norfolk born servicemen coming home in 1945 to discover they had one more child than they remember to thread.
xp

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:10 (eighteen years ago)

Has the boat sailed on that "NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST" meme yet?

― Feargal Hixxy (DJ Mencap), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:10 (eighteen years ago)

You'd think that after five years of the NME etc wanking on about The Strokes and the White Stripes that this is all PALPABLY NOT TRUE but whatever.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:12 (eighteen years ago)

This thread was asking for trouble, and it's gotten all it deserved...

― You've Got Scourage On Your Breath (Haberdager), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:13 (eighteen years ago)

Paging Jess Harvell.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:14 (eighteen years ago)

i was using hyperbole steve but the kind of yankophobia lex is talking about in our thing is basically a britpop thing, at least in living memory -- the libertines kept it up i guess but otherwise, what matt said.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:15 (eighteen years ago)

Norfolk born servicemen coming home in 1945 to discover they had one more child than they remember to thread.
xp
-- Dom Passantino (juror...), January 8th, 2007.

i'm sure you can work up a punchline to this.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:16 (eighteen years ago)

it's not basically a britpop thing, it's always been around

Has the boat sailed on that "NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST" meme yet?

sunk at launch

― reverto levidensis (blueski), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:16 (eighteen years ago)

PUT YOUR HANDS UP FOR THE NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST MEME, IT LOVES FADING OUT AFTER A FEW DAYS USE

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:19 (eighteen years ago)

It got bogged down in sandbox waters.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:19 (eighteen years ago)

METEOR STRIKE IN FIVE SECONDS

― You've Got Scourage On Your Breath (Haberdager), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:22 (eighteen years ago)

these threads are worth it just to read the bitching about them and the people on them elsewhere

― reverto levidensis (blueski), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:24 (eighteen years ago)

oooh where? where?

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:26 (eighteen years ago)

i'll tell you if you tell me what new albums you bought last year

― reverto levidensis (blueski), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:31 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.blackcollegewire.org/culture/041008_j-l-king/down-low.jpg

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:38 (eighteen years ago)

even though i can't imagine anyone else replying, i think my time is def spent more profitably talking to myself here than on any of the ones about the british music press (taking cue from jay-z, "a wise man told me don't argue with fools, cos people from a distance can't tell who is who").

-- lex pretend (lexusjee...), January 8th, 2007. (lex pretend) (later)

: (

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:40 (eighteen years ago)

Skipping 132 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

It influences bands, kids, advertising executives and television networks. Hell, it even influences kittens.

― Edward III (edward iii), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

http://shogun.shafted.com.au/temp/cat-detonator_punk.jpg

― VALLEY OF BLIZZARDZ (Mr.Que), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:16 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.rathergood.com/punk_kittens/

― Edward III (edward iii), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:19 (eighteen years ago)

Someone should put this entire thread in a cliche time capsule.

― Edward III (edward iii), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

ILX *is* a cliche time capsule! (Of the best/worst kind.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:27 (eighteen years ago)

http://192.107.108.56/portfolios/m/murray_k/final/img007.jpg

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 8 January 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

That's me in the lavender pants, I assume.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

But Ned, you know ILX is too big to fit in a time capsule proper.

― Edward III (edward iii), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

That's me in the lavender pants, I assume.

How did you and your friend coax that conjoined tapeworm to triangulate around those filing cabinets?

― Edward III (edward iii), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:31 (eighteen years ago)

omg, NOW LOCK IT

― You've Got Scourage On Your Breath (Haberdager), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:32 (eighteen years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/etienne_saint/attack.jpg?t=1168288429

― ‘•’u (gear), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:34 (eighteen years ago)

where is noise bored

― You've Got Scourage On Your Breath (Haberdager), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:37 (eighteen years ago)

webeonit

― how useful is latebloomer? really, really fucking useful! (latebloomer), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

In spades.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Monday, 8 January 2007 21:10 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not talking about what people are/were doing.

I'm not talking about punk as music, or even as a set of factors that influence musicians

OTM

what you ARE doing, Adam, it seems to me, is letting us all know how you have discovered that a word ("punk") has shifted what it signifies, like all words do; it no longer refers to only: 1) a stick which burns slowly and is useful for lighting fuses 2) a male hustler 3) a style of music popular in the late 1970s or 4) a person who likes that kind of music but - and this, i believe, is the sum total of your point - that is also now signifies a certain admirable attitude that a lot of people see in the latter two definitions. this happens with many, many words. sometimes the words are so valorized and glamorized - like "punk" - that they become what frank kogan calls SUPERWORDS. "cool" for instance. or "bad," for a little while. "rock" too. people argue over whether something they like is more [superword] than some other thing, or if something can TRULY be called [superword] or whether it's just pretending, etc.

the question isn't asking "when will people stop using 'punk' as a superword," though. it's asking "when will music critics stop slavering over the particular sound of particular bands that were popular in the late 1970s." note that critics have, outside of a few rarified circles, gotten over "hot jazz" but that people like paris hilton continue to use "hot" as a superword. trying to identify and describe some essence that links the way it's used now with the way it was used then obscures far more than it reveals about the things you care about, i.e. the "culture at large," how ideas change, etc.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Monday, 8 January 2007 22:10 (eighteen years ago)

I think yr. criticism of my point is a bit unfair, Euai. But I'm kinda caught up in "ILX = mean people" at the moment, so maybe I'm projecting. *sob*

Way back when, I said this: "...punk = authenticity of [white] adolescent oppositionalism, rejection. Therefore, 'punk' fulfills a need. Or, rather, once identified, it becomes conceptually indispensable."

This point didn't seem particularly controversial or even to me, but I went ahead and made it anyway. What the fuck, you know? Anyway, my words were criticized by various people for various reasons, and I happily (perhaps foolishly) attempted to defend them. Unfortunately, along the way, I got defensive, and in turn wrote about 10,000 more words than were strictly necessary. I understand that some of them may even have been flowery.

I've said several times that I'm not a punk and don't have any special fondness for punk music, ideals, fashion or politics. But I do think that "punk", as a cultural formulation, is useful and resonant in a way that is no longer true of "hot jazz".

That's all I'm gonna say. I'm not pretending to break new ground, and I suspect that the way I'm saying this is somehow more objectionable to folks than the point I'm trying to make.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Monday, 8 January 2007 22:25 (eighteen years ago)

when will people who don't take critical advice anyway get over music critics?

― friday on the porch (lfam), Monday, 8 January 2007 22:28 (eighteen years ago)

Ha, don't worry, Mr. Que, I have received the message loud and clear over the past week that you don't like it when I post!

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 8 January 2007 23:03 (eighteen years ago)

is Adam Beales Squirrel Police in disguise??

― mucho (mucho), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 01:07 (eighteen years ago)

hot jazz today:
http://www.mtv.com/shared/promoimages/bands/a/aguilera_christina/fashion_rocks/281x211.jpg

also, coincidentally, punk today.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 01:46 (eighteen years ago)

If you're into that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 01:59 (eighteen years ago)

It is important to note that Punk was a political movement as much as a musical movement. Back in the Carter/Reagan/Thatcher days people had a great deal to be angry about and Fleetwood Mac or Boz Skaggs was just the wrong soundtrack for that anger. After a while the anger died down, but Punk still had the feeling of a political movement back then (as did hip hop) so a crop of less angry post punk bands set out to change the world. At best, postpunk made it okay to be clever, or musically accomplished, or gay, but otherwise the world continued to get shittier. So by the next recession, hope and anger had become too tiresome, and we turned to music that expressed ennui - the second punk movement or Grunge. Nowadays the kids and their parents are thoroughly therapized and medicated, US schools no longer leave children behind, and while the world is even more screwed up, nobody has the slightest illusion that anything they can do can help make it better. In this context punk has become a solely musical form, completely free of political awareness; so you get empty bands, that sound like the Gang of Four, Joy Division or the Buzzcocks after brain surgery to remove their capacity for irony, a sort of castrated postpunk. In short, the planet is dying, pointless wars are being fought, thieves and liars run the world; but the kids of today have got their new x-box, a Misfits t-shirt from Hot Topic and no idea of anything better to do than rock out to Panic at the Disco on their $300 IPods.

So if anyone other than Peaches comes up with any actually revolutionary popular music in the next year, American or British, I would be genuinely surprised.

― JB Young (JB Young), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:32 (eighteen years ago)

So if anyone other than Peaches comes up with any actually revolutionary popular music in the next year, American or British, I would be genuinely surprised.

This thread is making me want to eat my own face.

― Disco Nihilist (mjt), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:35 (eighteen years ago)

x-post -- Zac?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:36 (eighteen years ago)

I mean, seriously, who the fuck are you, and what kind of alchemical wonderland of 'Captain Obvious fights the conspiracy' do you come from?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:43 (eighteen years ago)

(Besides Baltimore.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:43 (eighteen years ago)

lol 'alchemical wonderland'

― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:45 (eighteen years ago)

son of son of simon reynolds.

― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:50 (eighteen years ago)

ned gets pixxed read all about it

― friday on the porch (lfam), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 03:09 (eighteen years ago)

srsly though, peaches, a revolutionary? yeah, i had to overturn my underwear.

― friday on the porch (lfam), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 03:10 (eighteen years ago)

Did this article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguide/music/story/0,,1982677,00.html

(from the Guardian/James Brown thread) have anything to do with the impetus for this thread?

To me, his appeal lay largely in the fact that he lived more like an outlaw rock'n'roller, or a black punk rocker, rather than somebody you'd associate as being one of the Brand New Heavies' influences.

In the 1960s, it took balls of steel to stand up for civil rights as loudly as James did. There was his promotion of black capitalism and his refusal to temper his music in any way for whitey. There was also the funny stuff he did, like brandishing a shotgun at a meeting with an insurance company because he really wanted to know who had used his personal toilet. Because he'd taken so much PCP, the toilet enquiries ended up in a police chase with 23 shots fired at his Jeep.

b/c this is a genuinely reprehensible use of "punk" as a concept.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 03:10 (eighteen years ago)

I blame Greil Marcus for this this thread.

― Ice Cream Electric (Ice Cream Electric), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 03:37 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.northernshow.biz/images/fearga1.jpg
And I don't wanna get over you
It doesn't matter what you do

― The Redd And The Blecch (Ken L), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 05:10 (eighteen years ago)

see what happens when the Yanks find a perfectly respectable early-morning British mudslinging thread...

― You've Got Scourage On Your Breath (Haberdager), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 07:34 (eighteen years ago)

Hey I had to sit through this shit all night at work, Louis.

― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 07:35 (eighteen years ago)

i like punk and i like a lot of pop. i don't see why people are arguing.

― brandi (zirconium), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 07:40 (eighteen years ago)

Hoosteen, you do all-night shifts? :-(

You should join in the Dom-Lex dogfights! Might change their tune a little (or not...)

Oh, and brandi, that post alone could have entire books devoted to its solution. I'd just put it all down to unalloyed contrarianism... ;-)

― You've Got Scourage On Your Breath (Haberdager), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 07:45 (eighteen years ago)

Arf Arf what should I see in the Guardian this morning but "WAS PICASSO THE FIRST PUNK?" - overenthusiastic subbing of an earnest piece on Les Demoiselles D'Avignon which made the fatal error of mentioning punk once as an aside in the second-to-last para.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 10:11 (eighteen years ago)

We are now the same distance from punk as punk was from Glenn Miller. Let GO, people, let GO.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 10:15 (eighteen years ago)

oh my days.

but it isn't even that earnest! like most graun articles these days i physically couldn't read it because it was wrong in detail and in general. you may as well say picasso was the first punk if you're going to say cinema in 1907 was a flickering newsreel of the boer war. i'm not even sure why we're calling him the 'first' 'modernist'.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 10:16 (eighteen years ago)

Earnest in tone rather than in attention to detail, well by my frivolous standards anyway.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 10:17 (eighteen years ago)

In tomorrow's Grauniad:
the veteran comic made a scandalously dirty pun. Kenneth Horne reported him to the BBC immediately

"Was Arthur Askey the first PUNK?" Lucy Mangle is made to investigate.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 13:18 (eighteen years ago)

Non-ironic use of "superwords"... Picasso = punk... ILX is made of mean people...

ILM IS BACK BABY

― Edward III (edward iii), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:18 (eighteen years ago)

Night of the Living Derridas, all over again.

― SAVE IT FOR THE CAKE LIST YOU CRAZY BROAD (patog27), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:22 (eighteen years ago)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/edwardiii/nightofthelivingderrida.jpg

― Edward III (edward iii), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:34 (eighteen years ago)

(Ha, don't worry, Mr. Que, I have received the message loud and clear over the past week that you don't like it when I post!
-- nabisco (--...), January 8th, 2007.

Wrong dude, wrong. I (and I'm sure a lot of other people) just get a little fatigued by the long convulted posts. That's all. It just makes you an easy target sometimes. Just ignore my dumb shit. And besides, you are completely OTM on the Infinte Jest thread!

― VALLEY OF BLIZZARDZ (Mr.Que), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:44 (eighteen years ago)

"My prediction: 2017"

Not a chance. Charlie Harper will still only be 73.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 22:40 (eighteen years ago)

They did by the time of "OK Computer". A lot of prog influenced stuff is critically loved these days.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 23:46 (eighteen years ago)

Edward III has almost brought me to tears laughing on this thread.

― Jacob Sanders (LolVStein), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 06:50 (eighteen years ago)

I know that I'm late to the party, but this: "You keep vacillating between (a) admitting that punk is a fairly vague ethos we appeal to fairly casually, and (b) trying to claim punk is a specific thing" is so fucking Hegelian that it makes me cry.

― js (honestengine), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 06:51 (eighteen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.