Anyone here ever ran a dance music label?

How much can you expect to pay a remixer?

bet you Ronan, with your experience/knowledge, could get most folks for free (so long as you aint after the Big Names of course) .. several recent times examples that i have details on, seem to be a case of : "you do one for me and i'll do one for you"

hmm...possible except I don't produce (yet, am working on this as part of same)

surely these guys still take a lump sum, even the small ones?

i know of 3 recent remixes .. and each was favour based.
a small insight admittedly, but i suspect that this is something that a lot of small upstart labels try and do.
but hey if you're willing to pay .. then i got a list of people lined up to remix stuff for you ..

stirmonster, right?

I guess I'm trying to find out the lie of the land...obviously I want to risk as little cash as possible (it doesn't seem expensive really) but I do want quality too, above all else I want quality.

My obstacles at the moment are

1. Lack of inhouse producers or Irish producers whom I trust or whose work I want to release means hard to establish a good sound for a label without going international and having to become one of those A and R style labels like Crosstown Rebels (but maybe this is ok) Only beginning my own productions...long way to go yet.

2. Location means I'm a little isolated from the scene of the music I want to release, plus not as easily able to network. Also not as easy to spot up and coming people or cherrypick certain producers and stuff...

3. No knowledge whatsoever of the financial/legal side of the music business.

4. Don't personally know a huge amount of people in the scene, tho I guess it's easy to get to know people via the net...

Any tips or ideas? I know I have some strengths too for this but these are the main weaknesses...

good questions, ronan. i've been wondering similar things and have had similar ideas for a while now. but i'm unfortunately even further outside the scene than you. have to make my own i guess.

i've been thinking that a nice way to start would be to find someone with whom i'm at least vaguely acquainted—i.e. they kinda remember me and kinda like me—who's a fringe name to split a 12" with me (as aspiring producer). then run a small pressing, give most away and call it a loss but hope for some notice positive feedback and whatnot and hopefully fund a second release a bit later. dunno who that would be yet or how to fund it initially. still waiting for the day i walk down the street, minding my own business, and find a bag of cash behind a bush. the kind with a "$" printed comically on the sack.

i asked a question a few weeks back about 60 Secs., which released the pretty awesome Agnes 12" "Girls on Drums" last year. they only had two releases under their belt at that time-- kind of hard to search for, but someone here knows the guys who do it-- check minimal bobbins or the sandbox?

Agnès & Lee van Dowski are running that label, check 60sec.ch

And the next is by Dachshund (myspace.com/dachshund1) who's also from Geneva and a former drum & bass producer.

Like: margins, what do you charge per 12, how much does vinyl cost?

You charge what the distributor will pay. You are not in a position to negotiate with them yet. The standard used to be 2.85usd a record in the late 90's. I don't know what they pay now, but it has risen due to the increased cost of pressing vinyl.

The cost of vinyl depends on how many you make, who masters it, who cuts it, what weight of vinyl you choose, the color of you labels, the color of your jackets, additional set up fees at the plant, shipping to you/your distributor, and taxes. When I looked into it in the US a month ago, I was looking at round 1500-2000 for 500 record depending on where I had the work done.

If you want process details, hit me up offlist and I will break it down for you.

How much do you pay an artist per sale of 12s or mp3s?

You don't pay per 12" in dance. You usually pay a set fee or more likely, you send a chunk of the pressing to the atist and they sell it themselves locally. People don't make big money in the underground 12" scene unless they are selling more than a couple thousand(economy of scale). I don't know about the digital end. I guess you would split the profit. Underground dance is usually pretty handshake and low key. Nobody is getting rich off 500 12"s.

How much can you expect to pay a remixer?

Depends. If you want Dave Clarke or Rex The Dog it will probably cost you a few bucks. If you want a hungry underground guy he will probably do it for cheap/free to get his name out there. A lot of the time artists will remix each other on a handshake. I know this guy named Disco Nihilist who works real cheap... ;)

How likely are artists to want to record a 12 for you when you aren't their friends living next door in Berlin?

You would be suprised. You have to understand that there are a million mp3 guys out there looking to get their shit pressed. The hard part is hunting around and finding the good ones. My advice is to spend the next couple months digging around the producer sections of music boards you like. You will have to dig through a lot of garbage, but that is what A&R men do for a living.

Do you get crappy remixes if you're low down the priority list as a result of this?

again, you are looking at it incorrectly. You shouldn't be looking for established people right now, you should be looking for the next generation of hungry dope people who don't have a name yet. What you should be doing is looking for the big names of 2010. You will come up in the game because you will have them in your back catalog and you will be the guy who broke them. That is the whole point of underground dance labels. You are part of the training ground for the new stars.

How do you promote your label visually in a digital age?

It all depends on your concept for the label. What are you trying to communicate?

1. Lack of inhouse producers or Irish producers whom I trust or whose work I want to release means hard to establish a good sound for a label without going international and having to become one of those A and R style labels like Crosstown Rebels (but maybe this is ok) Only beginning my own productions...long way to go yet.

The thing to bare in mind is that the only people with perfect track records are the ones who have never done anything. You are going to have to do what you have to do to get material to release. You might have to start internation and just get the ball rolling. Once you have records in local shops and people start talking about your records(and people in provincal dance scenes talk about local releases A LOT) people will start introducing themselves to you. One thing I have learned recently is that there are a hell of a lot more people out there than you can imagine.

One local guy you should talk to is Eamon Doyle from D1 records. I don't know him personally, but he seems to get around. I am sure he could give you a lot of advice about running a dance label in Ireland.

2. Location means I'm a little isolated from the scene of the music I want to release, plus not as easily able to network. Also not as easy to spot up and coming people or cherrypick certain producers and stuff...

balogna. Again, you need to scour the net for a couple months. There is talent all over the place just waiting to be recognized. There are also a lot of bedroom guys that you don't even know about. Get chummy with local record store people and ask them about who they know locally.

3. No knowledge whatsoever of the financial/legal side of the music business.

You are very lucky, you can read and you are smart enough to understand what you read. Get some books, there are a ton out there.

4. Don't personally know a huge amount of people in the scene, tho I guess it's easy to get to know people via the net...

indeed. Also, you don't really need to know everybody in the scene. You need to be cool with your artists, and your distro. Every record you send out is a business card that reaches somebody. Just do your thing the way you want it done, and eventually a circle of people will form around you.

Any tips or ideas? I know I have some strengths too for this but these are the main weaknesses...

Get the money. Once you have money to spend the rest is easy. I have three words of advice: RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH. All the info you need is out there if you take the time to look.

again, if you need more info, hit me up offlist.

i'm probably repeating a lot of the good advice that isplay name posted above but here's my perspective.

Like: margins, what do you charge per 12, how much does vinyl cost?

if you shop around, you could probably manufacture for around 1 pound per copy. if you want a picture sleeve, add about 25 pence to this. if you use a generic bag that you can use for all your releases this will of course bring the cost down. this is all based on pressing 1000 which in this day and age is probably an optimistic sales figure. you will probably also want to get better mastering than most one stop pressing services offer which will add to your unit cost. the distributor will usually take 33% of the dealer price.

How much do you pay an artist per sale of 12s or mp3s?

most small labels operate on a 50/50 profit split. bear in mind that profits on 500 - 1000 sales are almost certain to be negligible and most artists on small dance labels are doing it for love or to get their name better known rather than for money.

How much can you expect to pay a remixer?

how long is a piece of string? remix fees vary considerably. if you want a 'name' remixer the chances are it is going to be out of your budget but at the end of the day, it is always worth asking as they may love the track and just simply want to do it. that sounds unlikely i know, but carl craig once did a remix for something i was putting out for free because he was a huge fan of the artist in question. realistically though, you are better approaching up and coming but still realatively unknown remixers who are keen to get their name out there and don't have an expectation of receiving a high fee.

How likely are artists to want to record a 12 for you when you aren't their friends living next door in Berlin?

there are a zillion producers out there looking for an outlet for their music. those zillion producers all have more tracks than will ever be released. ask them. if you don't ask......

starting off is the hardest as nobody knows your label or who you are and might be wary of going with you. but, if there are artsts you would love to have on your label, approach them. your passion, intelligence and charm might persuade them it is a risk worth taking. start communicating with artists you would like to release. get to know them. develop a relationship. i did this on a label i ran in the 90's (which incidentally lost a pile of money - anyone who goes into this expecting to make money is crazy. you might do but you might also lose a lot too. these days if i break even on the one or two records i release each year i'm delighted). anyway, i managed to get all sorts of people who i was told i was insane to even ask to give me tracks.

Do you get crappy remixes if you're low down the priority list as a result of this?

if you ask someone who is hungry to get their music and name known, chances are they will put all they can into doing the best they can. if someone does a remix for you and you think it sucks, you certainly aren't obliged to release it.

How do you promote your label visually in a digital age?

if you have a well defined idea of what you are trying to project and good design, the records will promote themselves. getting a bit of momentum going is key, particularly at the start. though getting the funds to do it might be tricky it is definitely a good idea to have an idea what your first three or four releases might be and getting them all out in relatively quick suceession. of course, this is all dependant on securing distribution which is a whole other ballgame. bad distribution is the downfall of countless small labels.

if you want to be like 90% of most successful dance labels press up as many copies as you like & tell the artist that you pressed 2000 or so. then you don't have to pay them!

Thanks Stir and Mike...

All good advice. I totally recognise the distribution thing, being on a crap distributor taints records, even in the stores you're less likely to really give an unheard of thing a chance if it's on a distributor that seldom has anything good (or is always late or out of stock

I'm thinking 500 copies of 12s is enough, when I look around at my friends, none of them are playing vinyl, so it would seem a bit ridiculous to expect to sell huge volumes of vinyl. Though perhaps in Germany and Europe things are different, is it worth risking the extra cost of 1000 copies? I suppose I wonder if 500 copies sold you could be thinking you lost an opportunity to get more exposure.

I don't think finance is a big risk as I'm looking to get a partner in this too, he produces though I'm not 100 percent sure on his production yet either. Also I want this to be my project as I have such a specific idea of what sort of sound I'm going for and what to avoid (and am sick of compromising this in clubs etc etc), but I guess I can inform him of this from the start and see how he feels about it, it was my idea and I asked him if he's interested in helping out.

I think my plan is as you say Stirmonster, to have the first 4 or so ready to go and release them all quickly after each other.

I don't really expect to make money, at all, but I would like to gain some profile and more opportunities to DJ internationally out of it, which I guess is possible.

Thanks again for the advice, it's just a fledgling idea but I really believe it's something I can do.

I wouldn't do 1000, maybe 300 unless you are planning to mail out a lot of promos, in which case 500, unless you have a really good distributor that loves the record. Why not do a bunch (like 12) white labels first and get them round for the distribs to hear and go from what they say. They might choose to start pre-selling it and can then give you some really solid numbers. At least once they've got it and heard it, which is half the battle anyway, you can at least ask them what they reckon.

Saxby, this might be a good place to mention atatutory mechanical royalties!

I would like to gain some profile and more opportunities to DJ internationally out of it, which I guess is how it all works, regrettably.

inverted my emphasis/citations here but you get the idea?

Access to v. good, unreleased music shouldn't be among your preoccupations. It should be the only reason to start a label...

Whereas I suppose you hope to end world hunger and feed the starving children of Africa by sitting on your ass typing dumb shit on my thread...

OK sorry to have disturbed you, and I won't be back.

Aye totally. How dare he try and release his own productions in a hope that other people will like them and it will help him be able to do fun stuff.

I think increasing my profile and allowing me to DJ internationally is not possible without releasing good music...so you know...I don't really feel bad about that being a motivation.

in certain circles, it's virtually impossible to get a good DJ profile without having producer/remixer "cred". I know I've thought about recording some shit electro-rock dance-punk crap that would be wildly popular, just so I can get paid what I deserve to DJ.

otm, despite the fact that the two skills are wildly different

Saxby, this might be a good place to mention statutory mechanical royalties!

Haha, yes, I think a stern lecture on this subject is in order here... Let me whip one up for him right quick.

A little update, I've pretty much decided I'm going to do this digitally. I just don't see that the costs and effort of vinyl are really worth it. I'd rather concentrate my spending on promotion and remixes, and my time on finding artists.

So far a few of the artists on my list have said they're interested, I've also got a few recommendations from them of friends who are unsigned, and that's worked well where the friends tracks are good, as they then have agreed to remix their friends track.

At this stage I probably have 3 releases worked out, I want to maybe get up to 4 or 5 before starting anything.

One thing worries me about being a digital label, this idea that all the Germans play vinyl only, is it true?

Would it be ludicrous to print up some vinyl just to use as promos? I just worry about sending out CDs that never get listened to.

very expensive to do that, and not worth it if yr going to do runs under 300 pcs, at least

promo item for digital songs = cheap USB keychains?

One thing worries me about being a digital label, this idea that all the Germans play vinyl only, is it true?

final scratch et al are pretty widespread by now. the real problem is that the three leading dance mags dont do mp3 reviews!

that is a problem. I guess internet is pretty good for promotion. Also thinking as well as putting stuff on Beatport etc, I should make a website and sell the tracks myself on it, no middle man etc. And easy to promote the website to people. Is this viable and ok? You don't have to sell exclusively to certain digital sites do you?

kitty yo has gone exclusively digital, hasn't it?

might be worth emailing them for advice?