Was Todd Rundgren the key to Skylarking's greatness?

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Those arrangements? The quote of the White Album in '1000 Umbrellas?'

― calstars, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 23:51 (eighteen years ago)

no?

― M@tt He1ges0n, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 23:53 (eighteen years ago)

Dave Gregory arranged the 1000 Umbrellas strings.

I do think Rundgren helped give XTC a record they could never have given themselves.

― Dominique, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 23:59 (eighteen years ago)

wait - White Album quote? how could I never have noticed this before...?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 8 March 2007 00:00 (eighteen years ago)

Partridge has been pretty up-front that Rundgren contributed hugely to the sequence and sound of the record.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 8 March 2007 00:01 (eighteen years ago)

Was Todd Rundgren the key to Skylarking's greatness?

Well, XTC also wrote good songs.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, 8 March 2007 00:03 (eighteen years ago)

if rundgren could make records as good as xtc, you'd think he would have released some of them over the years.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 8 March 2007 00:05 (eighteen years ago)

no, he wasn't, because without him they went and made an even better record called 'nonsuch' which everyone totally underrates.

― unfished business, Thursday, 8 March 2007 00:05 (eighteen years ago)

Nonsuch IS a great record whose greatness is dulled by the production. The demos that appear on the Fuzzy Warbles series are much better.

― Mr. Odd, Thursday, 8 March 2007 00:29 (eighteen years ago)

"Skylarking" would have been great anyway, but Rundgren improved it even more.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 8 March 2007 00:57 (eighteen years ago)

Btw. to me it seems the production from "Psonic Sunspot" onwards was heavily influenced by "Skylarking", so maybe Rundgren taught them something they would continue to do from then on.

However, I do hear signs of their later more classic pop and less new wave oriented style already on "Mummer"; so I guess not.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 8 March 2007 00:59 (eighteen years ago)

The string part is at the 2 minute mark in 'Glass Onion' and the beginning of '1000 Umbrellas.'

― calstars, Thursday, 8 March 2007 03:07 (eighteen years ago)

Well, XTC also wrote good songs.

They're so good, I have always argued that they are actually "too good", hence hard for many people to even follow. Songwriters' songwriters, maybe, sorta thing.

Todd makes everything in life better...

― Saxby D. Elder, Thursday, 8 March 2007 05:51 (eighteen years ago)

Was Todd Rundgren the key to The New Cars shiteness?

― gershy, Thursday, 8 March 2007 06:03 (eighteen years ago)

They're so good, I have always argued that they are actually "too good", hence hard for many people to even follow

And "so good" that sometimes they forget to record good albums.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, 8 March 2007 12:06 (eighteen years ago)

The last time they recorded an album that wasn't particularly good was in 1984.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 8 March 2007 12:09 (eighteen years ago)

geir nearly otm but he has forgotten oranges and lemons :-(

― unfished business, Thursday, 8 March 2007 23:57 (eighteen years ago)

Anyone heard Rundgren's production/input on the Hall & Oates lost classic "War babies"?
fREAKY DEAKY!

― Rikard Fortworth, Friday, 9 March 2007 00:03 (eighteen years ago)

"Oranges And Lemons" was great!

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 9 March 2007 10:33 (eighteen years ago)

However, I do hear signs of their later more classic pop and less new wave oriented style already on "Mummer"; so I guess not.

... "Towers of London", that was on "The Black Sea"

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 13:43 (eighteen years ago)

"Towers Of London" has a very new-wave-like production. Great song, sure, but the production is nowhere as great and detailed as what would come later.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:49 (eighteen years ago)

I don't know about the production, but the song's definitely more "Beatles" than "New Wave"

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 13:52 (eighteen years ago)

But wasn't early XTC in general about Beatles songs in new wave arrangements? While XTC from "Mummer" onwards have been Beatles songs in Beatles arrangements.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:53 (eighteen years ago)

no...because, imho, that record is not great at all. Actually, it is/was the beginning of the bands demise.
**runs for cover**

― kwhitehead, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:24 (eighteen years ago)

You mean _Big Express_? That's possibly my favorite XTC album. If it's the 80s production you have a problem with, ok, but the tunes are great. It's the 1983 album that I think is their weakest - until _Wasp Star_, that one never worked for me.

― Mr. Odd, Friday, 9 March 2007 21:16 (eighteen years ago)

every other song on Wasp Star is crap, sadly. it's like half a good album.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 9 March 2007 21:17 (eighteen years ago)

The thing that confuses me is the fact that Rundgren was somehow responsible for Skylarking's sequencing concept: the original order reads pretty plainly to me as a life cycle, and of course it doesn't seem likely that Patridge was like "here are a bunch of songs that just so happen to correlate to stages in a person's life" and then Rundgren said "OMG I have an idea, let's put them in order!" So it seems like some kind of cue that a lot of the writing (of lyrics, at least) was done in-studio, or during the process, which ... well, Partridge lyrics certainly aren't lazy, even when they don't entirely work, so that's fairly impressive to me.

― nabisco, Friday, 9 March 2007 21:22 (eighteen years ago)

Although actually comparing the first half to the second half, it seems entirely possible that they came in with the less life-specific songs toward the beginning, and Rundgren somehow drew the thread of a theme out of them -- now that I think about it, some of the songs that most fit the life-cycle idea are the ones that seem most likely to have been developed in the studio. "Another Satellite" and "Dying" especially: they're fairly minimal, and built from recording effects and textures more so than "here's a tune I wrote at home." Exactly the kind of thing you come up with entirely in the studio.

P.S. My greatest achievement of the year so far was learning to play "Mermaid Smiled" on guitar. I highly recommend it, I was thrilled with myself for weeks.

― nabisco, Friday, 9 March 2007 21:27 (eighteen years ago)

wtf the chords in that song are nuts!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 9 March 2007 21:28 (eighteen years ago)

I forget which Partridge interview, but I remember it being something like Andy & Dave handing over about 40-50 demos of songs to Rundgren, who came back a week later saying 'ok we will record _these_ songs in _this_ order -- thereby forming a concept album''. perhaps some lyric writing was adjusted after the fact once that concept was agreed upon, but either way that's a profoundly assertive thing for a producer to do and it's no wonder that some feathers were ruffled when starting the show like that

― Milton Parker, Friday, 9 March 2007 21:30 (eighteen years ago)

Andy & _Colin_, pardon

― Milton Parker, Friday, 9 March 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

yeh that's the story I've read as well - I remember it being discussed exhaustively in the Little Express or whatever that XTC zine was called...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 9 March 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

Shakey, the chords are way simpler than you'd think -- it just gets good mileage out of select adds and open strings. The only think you even have to "learn" to play is the main riff, which is obviously the mega-fun part and the whole reason you'd want to learn this song in the first place.

― nabisco, Friday, 9 March 2007 21:48 (eighteen years ago)

God, I created a thread more than two years ago expressign interest in The Big Express, and I've STILL not heard it.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Friday, 9 March 2007 22:37 (eighteen years ago)

At the time, I seem to remember Partridge stating he hated recording the record but he begrudgingly gave Rundgren some credit for the results, especially how some of the songs like Summer's Cauldron/Grass are put into a medley.

― earlnash, Saturday, 10 March 2007 00:17 (eighteen years ago)

This is the only XTC album (not counting Dukes of the Stratosphere) that I truly enjoy in its entirety. I have to assume that has something to do with Rundgren.

― Moodles, Saturday, 10 March 2007 00:21 (eighteen years ago)

well, it IS their best record. (Dukes a close second but that's youthful nostalgia on my part, probably)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Saturday, 10 March 2007 00:21 (eighteen years ago)

I finally bought this today.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 10 March 2007 00:24 (eighteen years ago)

I wouldn't say that Rundgren is the "key" to Skylarking's greatness, but I do think it's clear the album they released was better thanks to his input (vis the 40-50 demos story mentioned above).

Personally I've always been kind of "eh" on The Big Express until late last year, when I listened to it for the first time in many, many years. With distance, I have to say that I think it's just about as good as Skylarking -- it definitely has that same song cycle feel, and on a song for song basis, I think it's just as strong. It's just that Skylarking is spring/summer power pop, and Big Express is industrial and political, and therefore the ear candy's not as sweet. I will happily YSI you whole album Alf, if that's what it takes.

Unfortunately, everything fell apart around Oranges & Lemons. Still some good moments, but for the first time I found things sounding a bit facile. I managed to listen to Nonesuch twice, if I was lucky. And beyond that I only ever listened to a couple of tracks from Wasp Star (nothing from Apple Venus at all).

― mitya, Saturday, 10 March 2007 05:14 (eighteen years ago)

apple venus > nonesuch .> orangs & lemons > wasp star

― gershy, Saturday, 10 March 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

English Settlement > Black Sea > Drums and Wires > White Music > Apple Venus (- Colin's songs) > Skylarking > Oranges and Lemons > Nonesuch

I haven't heard Go 2, Big Express, Mummer, or Wasp Star enough/recently enough to place them.

― lindseykai, Saturday, 10 March 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)

I still find "Wasp Star" nice enough. Sure it may have been their weakest album since "Big Express" and the "rock" production was kind of ill-advised, but it still contains several great songs, and it sounds archetypically XTC enough for me to love it anyway.

― Geir Hongro, Saturday, 10 March 2007 18:36 (eighteen years ago)

I will happily YSI you whole album Alf, if that's what it takes

Wow! Thanks!

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Saturday, 10 March 2007 21:02 (eighteen years ago)

apple venus > nonesuch .> orangs & lemons > wasp star

Yep

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 12 March 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

if rundgren could make records as good as xtc, you'd think he would have released some of them over the years.

M@tt He1ges0n on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 8:35 PM (4 days ago)

A Wizard A True Star and Something/Anything are both great records.

― filthy dylan, Monday, 12 March 2007 17:55 (eighteen years ago)

i tried "something/anything" - bought it once....there's just something i find really disagreeable about him....same w/zappa.

i can't really put it in words.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 12 March 2007 21:40 (eighteen years ago)

I feel a need to stand up for Oranges and Lemons: it's kind of a bleary mess at times, but it has a pretty fascinating sound, a lot of very interesting ambitious, and a handful of tracks that really amaze me. Or rather ... possibly it just manages to make itself seem okay at the end with three really great tracks -- "Pink Thing," "Miniature Sun" (which is kind of musically astounding, from the lurchy time signatures to the way that strange discordance starts throwing everything off balance during the last version), and "Chalkhills and Children."

― nabisco, Monday, 12 March 2007 21:54 (eighteen years ago)

s/b "ambitions," obviously. Partly I just think back on this fondly lately because of the last Scritti Politti record, which shares a lot of sonic similarities. (Though with the biggest one, it's actually that "Petrococadollar" = "Another Satellite.")

― nabisco, Monday, 12 March 2007 21:55 (eighteen years ago)

"Here Comes President Kill Again" = Obviously very much a classic.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 12 March 2007 22:48 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.nonstick.com/wpics/pg_goph4.jpg

"oh yes, yes indeed, quite so"

― nabisco, Monday, 12 March 2007 23:02 (eighteen years ago)

I haven't laughed so loud in days, nabisco.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 12 March 2007 23:06 (eighteen years ago)

hey guys, I don't normally post here (occasionally lurk) but I wrote an essay about this album a few years ago that's pretty bad that if you guys want to read, you can. it's my favorite album ever, and I think somewhere in there I mention what I think about Rundgren's role.

http://deathbymedia.blogspot.com/2006/09/contemplating-skylarking.html

But I'll step out of the shadows for XTC talk. I think the onl ythread I ever made here was "Grass" by Animal Collective v. "Grass" by XTC. It seems to me everyone has their XTC disc they think is criminally underrated, and I'd have to say mine is Oranges & Lemons.

― zurich, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 03:43 (eighteen years ago)

"Pink Thing," "Miniature Sun" (which is kind of musically astounding, from the lurchy time signatures to the way that strange discordance starts throwing everything off balance during the last version), and "Chalkhills and Children."

I love all those, plus Garden of Earthly Delights, Scarecrow People. However, stuff like "The Loving", "Merely A Man", even "Mayor of Simpleton" is imo XTC at their slickest, most bland. (Admittedly, some of that might have been partly due to what Virgin asked for.) In some ways, O&L is related to Mummer and to a lesser extent Big Express (which is actually one of my faves now), perhaps with better strategies for realizing some of the denser arrangements, but counteracting that w/an effort make it all sound "palatable".

But then, I've always had a grudge against this record because the awesome psychedelic cover is totally misleading about how most of the music sounds, *especially* coming after Skylarking and the Dukes album!

― Dominique, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 04:13 (eighteen years ago)

I always thought "the Loving" was an XTC low point.

― zurich, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 04:36 (eighteen years ago)

I think the onl ythread I ever made here was "Grass" by Animal Collective v. "Grass" by XTC.

I remember that!

In answer to the thread question, I prefer the 1982-84 period, so no. XTC are great all by themselves.

― sleeve, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 06:04 (eighteen years ago)

I dunno, Todd's productions always struck me as cold, and overly trebly. Like that halfway cool Utopia record with "Princess of the Universe." I do like the XTC record in question. I think Partridge/Moulding are far greater talents than Todd, actually. I got these really obscure Tommy Hoehn/Van Duren Memphis powerpop CDs recently, and they sound just like XTC c. Wasp Star.

― whisperineddhurt, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 02:00 (eighteen years ago)

Dahlen to thread. Please.

Key? No. But Skylarking's rep doesn't exactly square with the content. For one, despite all of the "song cycle" aspects, it's more Sgt. Peppers than Tommy or even Village Green in terms of being a "proper" concept or narrative. Like, chronologically shouldn't the song about getting married ("Big Day") come before the song about breadwinning anxiety ("Earn Enough For Us")? And though I like it, I'm not really sure what "That's Really Super, Supergirl" has to do with anything. Same with "Another Satellite." It feels more thematic than it is, I think.

As for Oranges and Lemons, in addition to the songs mentioned upthread, I always had a soft spot for "Across This Antheap" -- which by no means worked, but failed kind of nobly.

― Naive Teen Idol, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 03:34 (eighteen years ago)

I'll also step out as the only one here who has liked a few XTC songs but could take or leave on the whole, and have enjoyed Rundgren much more. I liked Making Plans for Nigel and some early stuff, but the more arranged they got, the more I lost interest. I didn't even really like the Dukes of Stratosphere album.

― filthy dylan, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 03:41 (eighteen years ago)

I dunno, Todd's productions always struck me as cold, and overly trebly.

I love treble! :)

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 10:35 (eighteen years ago)

I got "Oranges and lemons" in it's 3CD version, all of an anticipation as it was sold as being "more Dukes than beforeish".

and went "oh".

― Mark G, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 11:25 (eighteen years ago)

Wait, what the hell is that?

― Naive Teen Idol, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 23:20 (eighteen years ago)

Like, chronologically shouldn't the song about getting married ("Big Day") come before the song about breadwinning anxiety ("Earn Enough For Us")?

Fine then, YOU go ring-shopping on credit and leap into marriage before giving any thought to whether you can support your new family, you IRRESPONSIBLE you.

― nabisco, Thursday, 15 March 2007 00:32 (eighteen years ago)

Actually if anything I'd switch around "The Man Who Sailed Around His Soul" and "Mermaid Smiled," so that the return to youth the mermaid offers (haha affair??) comes after the mid-life crisis. But when you stretch it out into a life cycle it actually seems that the entire stretch between mid-life and death is spent sailing around one's soul, so who knows. It's depressing.

Granted that the beginning's a little thematically vague, but it totally locks together on side two:

"Summer's Cauldron" = womb and birth
"Grass" = childhood idyll
"The Meeting Place" = childhood socialization
"That's Really Super, Supergirl" = GURLZ
"Ballet for a Rainy Day" = vaguer but fits emotionally
"10,000 Umbrellas" = first heartbreak
"Season Cycle" = time-passing montage

"Earn Enough for Us" = welcome to the working world
"Big Day" = welcome to marriage
"Another Satellite" = welcome to marital tension and anomie
"Mermaid Smiled" = youth-capturing affair
"The Man Who Sailed Around His Soul" = mid-life crisis
"Dying" = ~~indictment of UK National Health Service~~ dying
"Sacrificial Bonfire" = cyclic rebirth and shit

― nabisco, Thursday, 15 March 2007 00:39 (eighteen years ago)

Wait, pardon, "Another Satellite" reads more cleanly as rejection of a possible affair.

Haha we should do a whole XTC back-catalog life story so we can work in "Pink Thing" for child-having and such.

― nabisco, Thursday, 15 March 2007 00:43 (eighteen years ago)

And we should also figure out what this 3-CD Oranges and Lemons is.

I suppose you could also read "That's Really Super, Supergirl" as a kid discovering GURLZ through comic books...

Also, I love "Big Day"...

― Naive Teen Idol, Thursday, 15 March 2007 03:24 (eighteen years ago)

I believe that was a version released on 3 3inch CDs.

Virgin CDVT 2581

― Brakhage, Thursday, 15 March 2007 16:09 (eighteen years ago)

No additional material, I mean. It's the record, just spread over 3 3-inch CDs with a shuffled running order.

― Brakhage, Thursday, 15 March 2007 16:10 (eighteen years ago)

It is, indeed.

The "Another Sattelite" sleevenote on the Fuzzy Warbles CDbox tells an interesting tale.

(short: He went off with her, eventually)

― Mark G, Thursday, 15 March 2007 16:14 (eighteen years ago)

I believe "Seagulls Screaming, Kiss Her Kiss Her" is about same person...?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 15 March 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

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