White artists criticized for trying to be black, and vice versa

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Obviously you can say that many forms of music are built on a certain sociocultural background, and if you don't share that background, trying to give the impression that you do can sound phoney. Still, more often than not these arguments just sound like lazy criticism based on essentialist racial stereotypes about black people having rhythm in their blood or whatever. Do you think this can be a valid form of criticism?

― Tuomas, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:05 (eighteen years ago)

How about the ""stereotype"" of white people consistently appropriating & repurposing black music? Anyway here's wishing you good luck in getting an opinion from black people on ilm.

― blunt, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:15 (eighteen years ago)

HOW ABOUT WE FORGET COLOUR AND SOCIAL BACKGROUND AND CLASS AND GENRE AND JUST TALK ABOUT COOL DUDES HEARING COOL SOUNDS AND MIXING UP LOTS OF THEM TOGETHER TO MAKE THEIR OWN COOL MUSIC THAT IS A UNIQUE BOUILLABAISSE, HUH? WHY CAN'T WE ALL LISTEN TO CORNELIUS?

― Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:21 (eighteen years ago)

Best thread ever

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:21 (eighteen years ago)

BooYaBass

― blunt, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:23 (eighteen years ago)

"when i say i'm in love you best believe i'm in love, L-U-V!"

http://www.barzelay.net/files/images/other/anthony_kiedis.jpg

― scott seward, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:23 (eighteen years ago)

Of course it's a valid criticism.

― Jordan, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:24 (eighteen years ago)

I LIKE CORNELIUS, BUT IS HE A RETARD? CAN ONLY RETARDS MAKE MUSIC WITHOUT BEING RACISTS?

― Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:24 (eighteen years ago)

http://photos-394.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v71/207/48/528700442/n528700442_55394_2420.jpg

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:25 (eighteen years ago)

would Cornelius or anyone else be half as interesting if you knew nothing of their background or the genres they were mixing? Unless we reduce everything to St3v3 Go1ldb3rg -style musicology and forget the context then these things are important.

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:25 (eighteen years ago)

ain't no love like g love

http://www.athcast.com/media/artists/24_505.jpg

― scott seward, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:30 (eighteen years ago)

― The Reverend, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:58 (eighteen years ago)

Oh I know I put it in ironic-ILX-yoof-mafia=capslock-shouting but I actually mean it. The retard bit was a joke, though.

― Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

Don Cornelius OTM

― Dimension 5ive, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:07 (eighteen years ago)

bitch, y'all don't know me

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:09 (eighteen years ago)

― pretzel walrus, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

tuomaspaws etc, too early in the morning for this thread.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:13 (eighteen years ago)

How about the ""stereotype"" of white people consistently appropriating & repurposing black music?

Yeah, this is a totally valid criticism, especially considering the history of popular music. But it's a bit different from the arguments I was talking about, which suppose that people of different ethnic backgrounds simply have a essentially different sensibility to music. Which of course is true to certain extent, but I still think such arguments are often based on unnecessary racial stereotyping.

When is it okay for white people to appropriate black styles? When, like Emimem, they blend it with their own experience as white people and don't try to act as if they come from exactly the same place?

― Tuomas, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:16 (eighteen years ago)

TS: Bouillabaisse vs Smorgasboard

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:20 (eighteen years ago)

Also Cornelius is rub.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:21 (eighteen years ago)

There's nothing "natural" about it, but if you don't grow up hearing/playing a style, you have to work that much harder to make it sound right.

― Jordan, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:26 (eighteen years ago)

The notion of people "appropriating" one another's music is actually pretty iffy, in that it's dependent on two things. First is the fairly recent development of pop culture as a major commodity, such that someone can profit or find fame from "someone else's" music -- in a folk-music model, there's no "appropriation," only the spread and transmission of culture. Second is that standard habit of viewing minority cultures as being a concrete thing, and dominant/European culture as not: we're all comfortable talking about white appropriation of black music, but of course not a soul in here would criticize a classically trained African cellist of "appropriating" European culture. And with good reason -- the dynamics of force and assimilation are completely different. But the "appropriation" line doesn't necessarily work, on a culture level, as cleanly as we always go around assuming it does.

I think there's actually a very simple, straightforward way of answering this question: I'd say the only time I'd criticize artists for "trying to sound like X race" is when THE ARTIST seems to be trying to do this via essentialist racial stereotypes, something that'll have very little to do with musical styles. But this is pretty uncommon: it really is the rare white person who feels the need to put on metaphorical blackface to rap.

― nabisco, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

I should really add a third thing to the dynamic of "appropriation" -- obviously the main reason it bothers many is that the so-called appropriators actually do bring their own cultural into the mix. In the US, though, this usually means mixing the dominant/white culture with black music, which -- since we think of dominant culture as not culture at all -- reads not as the mingling of two cultures, but as "watering down." And it's often more economically successful based on this. But if you stepped out to a perspective where you could somehow not view the dominant culture as invisible and blank, this would just be the kind of cross-cultural pollination we tend to be interested in when it comes from other places. Jordan's right that not having exposure to a culture makes it harder to do it "right," and in part that's just technically true (you don't have the deep knowledge of the thing to be really flexible or sophisticated with it) -- but there's also a level where the "right" he's talking about there is partly referring to faithfulness to the original, and what's being labelled "wrong" about it is actually the addition of your own roots.

― nabisco, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)

I remember Christgau suggesting that Eminem rapped in a deeper voice when he shared a track with black dudes.

xpost

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 3 May 2007 15:57 (eighteen years ago)

Hahaha this is not picking on you, Hoos, you just reminded me: have you ever noticed how people always say "black DUDES?" I noticed it in Stephen King books when I was ten and now I see it everywhere. It's like they don't want to put anything priggy or unnatural in that second space, so they over-correct with this really casual "dude." "You know Malcolm? You know, the guy who works on the third floor? Black dude?"

― nabisco, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:02 (eighteen years ago)

t/s : 'dude' vs. 'fella'

― will, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:07 (eighteen years ago)

What are you on about there are white dudes, black dudes, asian dudes....dude is just guy but a little different.

― call all destroyer, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:07 (eighteen years ago)

im seeing dude as like guy here too. on this board anyhow dude is appended pretty much everywhere

― 600, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:10 (eighteen years ago)

this may be geeta fault

― 600, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:10 (eighteen years ago)

GIS for "black dude" is fairly amazing.

― The Reverend, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

Haha I know what "dude" means, fellas: seriously, I've been keeping mental statistical tabs on this since like age 10, and people are just way likelier to use a casual "dude" in that spot. The half-dozen people I've mentioned it to have all come back a month later and been like "OMG now I notice it all the time."

It's mostly funny -- I'm not saying it signifies anything other than white people getting the faintest twinge of awkwardness when identifying/describing someone as black!

― nabisco, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

Surely "dude" is better than "bro" in that context?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

i dunno i pretty much only ever hear people described as dude or guy these days, i almost never heard man in this way

this is a bit of a tangent isnt it?

― 600, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

Or well most of the time I see it, it's faux-casual, though of course there's also "black dude" used as archetypal DUDE, like in "mean dude" or "big dude" or whatever -- hahaha first page google results include "Black Dude Flattens White Guy Video," dude vs. guy!

Yeah, this is a tangent, and was just meant as a funny observation on my part -- no need to spend time on it. (Also definitely better than bro, though "better" isn't even the issue, I'm not saying it's some awful thing to do, just funny!)

― nabisco, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

dude is total faux-casual (esp from english perspective - interesting how its entered speech here), both guy and dude are absolutely faux-casual, subconscious americanisms.

i dont think ive ever heard anyone say bro here yet

― 600, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:27 (eighteen years ago)

bro=intra-ethnic use, cuz=inter-ethnic use, around these Euro parts anyway.

― blunt, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

Most awkward non-epithet thing I've been called by a white dude: "Afro brother" : D

― The Reverend, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

i hate when people call me dude. black guys in philly always called me dude. or "big guy". i was at the rekkerd store one day years ago and i get to the counter and guru is there cuz gang starr was doing an in-store or something, and he sez: "how's it going dooooooooood?" much to the delight of everyone there to see him. i said fine and promptly paid for my mixmaster mike, eminem, and company flow albums.

― scott seward, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

funniest thing I've been called by a black dude: "Steve Nash"

― bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

[Removed Illegal Link]

"sup chocolate bears?!"

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:50 (eighteen years ago)

that was johndorian.jpg

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 16:50 (eighteen years ago)

I think white people are afraid of sounding/getting called nerdy if they say "black people," and "blacks" sounds like something a racist would say, and "black guys" also has a sort of is-this-the-long-way-around-saying-"THEM," maybe - whereas "black dudes" sort of implies goodwill to some extent, y'know, it's easygoing and informal in a way that reassures the listener of the speaker's not-unfriendly intent

I grew up in California and prefer to be called dude, and to call everyone, be they men or women or any race, "dude"

― J0hn D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:01 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, i mean, to me, a black dude calling a white dude white dude is more common than a white dude calling a black dude black dude. but i've only been back in white people land for four years. and i'm already sick of being called dude here. but i'm not from california. i mean, i get it, i'm a big white dude. but inside i'm an old british woman living on a pension.

― scott seward, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:04 (eighteen years ago)

nothing will ever beat my one shining moment of glory though. when a homeless dude yelled at me: "Yo, Bachman Turner Overdrive!" Not even the time a homeless dude yelled "Yo, Led Zeppelin!" at me.

― scott seward, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

inside i'm an old british woman living on a pension.[/i]

thats rough[/i]

― 600, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:08 (eighteen years ago)

bah

― 600, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:08 (eighteen years ago)

What the fuck ever Scott, you are a dude if I ever met one.

― The Reverend, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:08 (eighteen years ago)

When I get called "big guy," it's usually because someone wants money from me.

― Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

Haha, Scott does seem like the quintessential dude, though I have not met him in person.

― Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:12 (eighteen years ago)

EXACTLY, okay, John D gets the kind of thing I'm saying. There is nothing horrible or weird about it, but if you go forth from this thread with it in your head, I promise you there will come a moment where you're like "hahaha it IS always 'dude!'"

― nabisco, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:12 (eighteen years ago)

Skipping 9 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

hahaha true story

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:23 (eighteen years ago)

Actually calling someone "dude" directly doesn't count. I call half of everyone "dude," in addition to using "dude" as an all-purpose interjection. It has to be a casual description of a third party. "Ask him, over there -- the black dude."

― nabisco, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:24 (eighteen years ago)

(scott, I actually hate being called dude, most of the time.)

― Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:25 (eighteen years ago)

i say 'blacks' sometimes

― and what, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:41 (eighteen years ago)

this is kinda like jew vs 'jewish person' right?? christ, king of the jewish people

― and what, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:42 (eighteen years ago)

yeah same impulse I think - antisemites use "jew" as an insult & are content to just preface it with "dirty" etc., so people who don't wanna sound antisemitic hear the sound of the word and think "no, I don't want to sound like that, let me find another way" but I think there are some interesting linguistic effects in the choice of "dude" that are absent from "jewish person"

I think in the late fifties/early sixties the way around the same issue was to use the word "cat" instead of "dude," at least in my father's jazzbo circles

― J0hn D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:45 (eighteen years ago)

In truth we are all just city slickers trying to play cowboy.

― The Reverend, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:47 (eighteen years ago)

i just call them "jewde"

― Alex in Baltimore, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:48 (eighteen years ago)

except for me Rev, I am actually a cowboy & on a steel horse I ride

― J0hn D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:49 (eighteen years ago)

^^^
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9193/20061005az2.gif

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:51 (eighteen years ago)

BLACK DUDES aka the jewdriver

― and what, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:54 (eighteen years ago)

John otm re: jewish (i.e. "a Jew" = okay, "Jewish holiday" = okay, "Jew holiday" = v. bad)

― Jordan, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:55 (eighteen years ago)

but we digress

― Jordan, Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:57 (eighteen years ago)

I prefer being called man. as in: hey, man! all i was trying to say was, black "folks" (there's another one), both men and women, that i have known, call white guys "dude" A LOT. as in: "do you know so and so?" "you mean so and so?" "nah, skinny little white dude, lives around..." See, that's why it's funny. cuz i'm more used to "dude" being black slang!

― scott seward, Thursday, 3 May 2007 18:10 (eighteen years ago)

Dude, yeah, black people saying "dude" is the whole source of white people feeling like "dude" is a good casual choice! Except for women, in which any mention of race/religion/ethnicity calls for "lady" afterward. "Ask her, the Asian lady over there."

Which -- oops -- we forgot "gentleman" here, in that pinched but dutifully open-minded way.

― nabisco, Thursday, 3 May 2007 18:22 (eighteen years ago)

gentleman! wheres my car

― 600, Thursday, 3 May 2007 18:58 (eighteen years ago)

Dude, yeah, black people saying "dude" is the whole source of white people feeling like "dude" is a good casual choice!

Interesting, I didn't know Jeff Spicoli was a black dude ;)

― QuantumNoise, Thursday, 3 May 2007 19:01 (eighteen years ago)

Except for women, in which any mention of race/religion/ethnicity calls for "lady" afterward. "Ask her, the Asian lady over there."

hm, maybe if they're older. the 'dude' equivalent for girls, if it's not 'girl,' is probably 'chick.'

"Did you hear what that black chick said to the MTA worker?"
"Yea, it was pretty fun, LOTS of hot israeli chicks."

― poortheatre, Thursday, 3 May 2007 19:12 (eighteen years ago)

If we even tried to separate what "white" and "black" music was exactly, we'd be here forever.

― filthy dylan, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:04 (eighteen years ago)

John otm re: jewish (i.e. "a Jew" = okay, "Jewish holiday" = okay, "Jew holiday" = v. bad)

This is actually in most dictionary definitions. Dictionary.com says:

Usage Note: It is widely recognized that the attributive use of the noun Jew, in phrases such as Jew lawyer or Jew ethics, is both vulgar and highly offensive. In such contexts Jewish is the only acceptable possibility. Some people, however, have become so wary of this construction that they have extended the stigma to any use of Jew as a noun, a practice that carries risks of its own. In a sentence such as There are now several Jews on the council, which is unobjectionable, the substitution of a circumlocution like Jewish people or persons of Jewish background may in itself cause offense for seeming to imply that Jew has a negative connotation when used as a noun.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:37 (eighteen years ago)

I think I should start a new TV series called JEW'D where I try to haggle people down on prices or something and then at the end I'll be all "you've just been JEW'D!" and point at the camera and we'd all laugh.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:39 (eighteen years ago)

Anyone OK with Jackie Wilson is OK with me.

http://www.thesecretcinema.com/jolson.jpg

― mark 0, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:41 (eighteen years ago)

A non-American saying "dude" or "chick" is probably even more unlikely than an African American saying it.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 4 May 2007 08:30 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, like that "chick" spouting AneriKKKan Keif Richard.

― JN$OT, Friday, 4 May 2007 08:33 (eighteen years ago)

I am a british. I say "black chap".

― The Wayward Johnny B, Friday, 4 May 2007 09:03 (eighteen years ago)

White folks like, white folks like...
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1313/5062_0062.jpg
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1150/5718_0013.jpg http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1307/4812_0002.jpg

Images pilferred from imdb.com

― christoff, Friday, 4 May 2007 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

being from California i honestly haven't noticed that much of a divide of black vs. white being called dude, but my 'mental statistical tab' is well attuned to the black 'youth' vs. white 'teen' or 'kid' distinction, which definitely strikes me as insidious.

also xxxxpost never noticed how the sly way Republicans have started to use 'Democrat' instead of 'Democratic' as an adjective when describing Democratic policies echoes the 'jew' vs. jewish construction.

― tremendoid, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:16 (eighteen years ago)

Best thread ever

-- Dom Passantino, Thursday, May 3, 2007 5:21 PM (Yesterday)

8080

― That one guy that quit, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)

black 'youth' smacks of police jargon

― and what, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:19 (eighteen years ago)

wait this suddenly reminds me of a really depressing thread where someone was talking about black communities assimilating police jargon ("vehicle" rather than "car" and so forth)

― bernard snowy, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:28 (eighteen years ago)

Not to detract from the "dude" debate, but I do think the original question is an interesting one, and one I gave a fair amount of thought to studying jazz in a mostly black arts high school and then at a mostly white conservatory.

I think as long as there's been recorded music there's been tension around this issue, and the two sides are not the same. White culture as it's used in this debate really represents mainstream American mass culture, a kind of vaguely universalist culture that sees fit to appropriate anything because nothing is really tied down to place or ethnicity so much that it can't be universalized.

Those black artists and writers that have come down on the other side of this debate have tended to do so out of a need that mainstream culture doesn't have - the need to have something of one's own because one is in the minority and one's position is constantly threatened.

What I'm trying to say is that when whites "appropriate" black music, it's not really as much about one culture stealing from another as it is about a general belief that all culture and art belongs to everyone, and it's easier to have this belief when one is not part of a politicized and threatened minority. And obviously I tend toward the first view even though I'm sympathetic with the second one, and probably so do most ILM posters of whatever background.

The second view also requires some difficult mental contortions in a society where mass culture rules - I remember reading a book that made a tortured argument about how white jazz musicians had never actually "innovated" anything except when they brought European classical influences - an absurd argument to anyone who knows anything about the complex history of jazz. Another book I remember stated as its thesis that bands like Led Zeppelin were "misinterpreting" the blues, which is itself based on a gross misinterpretation of Led Zeppelin.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:38 (eighteen years ago)

And jazz was (and maybe still is) a great battleground for those clashing ideas, with a certain camp of liberal critics and musicians (white and non) claiming jazz as being about democracy, freedom, America as a melting pot, etc., and others claiming it as being about uniquely black struggles, black expression, etc. And it's hard to completely refute either.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:40 (eighteen years ago)

What I'm trying to say is that when whites "appropriate" black music, it's not really as much about one culture stealing from another as it is about a general belief that all culture and art belongs to everyone

Let me revise that a little - I don't mean that every time white people try to do a traditionally "black" style of music they do so with nothing but good, liberal, universal intentions - that's obviously not the case.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

isn't theft or appropriation or whatever just standard operating procedure in ANY country/culture with lots of different ethnic/religious/etc groups intermingling? and even though usa is/was mostly white/xian, the areas where different new styles fermented tended to be fairly mixed and there has always been a pretty diverse musical representation in the usa anyway. um, you know, in cities and ports and logging camps.

― scott seward, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:25 (eighteen years ago)

isn't theft or appropriation or whatever just standard operating procedure in ANY country/culture with lots of different ethnic/religious/etc groups intermingling?

Eric Lott's Love & Theft is a really good read in this regard

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:29 (eighteen years ago)

for such a young country, the roots are mighty tangled. ever try and trace the development/use of the accordion in music? good luck! the mexicans apparently got it from the germans. but don't quote me on that.

― scott seward, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:33 (eighteen years ago)

don't forget one of the HUGE influences on early jazz: John Philip Sousa! The son of Portugese immigrants who stole all his ideas from the British! oh the web is tangled indeed...

― scott seward, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:38 (eighteen years ago)

Debussy + Lester Young = Charlie Parker, etc

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:41 (eighteen years ago)

debussy ripped sousa off too.

― scott seward, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:43 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=50041

― o. nate, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:55 (eighteen years ago)

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:59 (eighteen years ago)

"trying to be black" is a red herring to begin with, in a country where many people get their "black culture" from Hollywood or from Jordan Carlos, and can quote Huggy Bear more readily than they can quote Ishmael Reed or W.E.B. DuBois. I think what we've been talking about (as some of you have pointed out upthread, I think, but nabisco put into words) is cross-pollination. (Hence the Jolson image.) Perfectly legit.

Debussy + Lester Young = Charlie Parker, etc

There were black swing-era bands that had arrangements of "classical" pieces by European composers in their repertoires, but were never allowed to record them and were discouraged from playing them during live radio remotes. There's some theft going on there, but that's the theft of one's ability to define one's self to the public -- they weren't trying to "be white", they were trying to make good music, just like Enimem used to.

It's really only about how well you incorporate or extend your influences, not where those influences come from.

Theft is those quickie Pat Boone or Georgia Gibbs recordings of R&B hits, in an attempt to prevent the original artists and labels from cashing in -- that kind of theft is rare, and they certainly weren't trying to "be black".

― mark 0, Friday, 4 May 2007 19:10 (eighteen years ago)

Already rofling at the unintentional "Enimem". My apologies.

― mark 0, Friday, 4 May 2007 19:11 (eighteen years ago)

Hey, big man. What's going on.

I don't remember the last time anyone in music, or anywhere else in public life, was "criticized for trying to be" one race or another, except on Nazi message boards or whatever. Maybe I have my head in the sand on this.

When is it okay for white people to appropriate black styles?

When the music is good, when the music is something new, and when the musician repays a proportionate amount of the "debt" he's incurred, however you calculate these things.

For some people, I'm sure, Elvis, the Stones, and Eminem, and to a lesser extent Talking Heads and the Clash, are too successful to ever make up in any meaningful way what they owe (and they do owe) to gifted blacks that haven't been as successful doing similar music because they're black (or African, or poor). I think at least Elvis, Talking Heads, and the Clash have repaid their debts. Eminem and the Stones are still working on it. These are issues that white rappers all struggle with, or at least they should.

And in fact, anyone playing modern popular music in any form, regardless of race, owes a debt to black music as a whole, a debt to previous generations as a whole, and plenty of other invidual debts that the public probably can't fathom, all of which deepen with privelege and success. All of these tiny imagined ethical interactions overlap and clash and speak to each other. Which is why I guess there's always a moral dimension in creating something good and new, and knowing the history of the music you're playing and listening to, and talking about it with other people, and sharing whatever advantages you might have as best you can.

These things are all their own rewards, which is why there's not much point getting moralistic about it.

― Pete Scholtes, Saturday, 5 May 2007 00:51 (eighteen years ago)

And as this thread shows, at least partly, the same applies to all art and speech, all creativity as a whole. Non-black Americans around the world wouldn't think or talk or walk the way they do if Africans hadn't been brought to North America as slaves. It's not strictly a matter of direct influence--I imagine people knowing a good thing when they see it, or hear it, has something to do with the fact that we really are all one tribe going back to Africa, complete with grammar, thumbs, humor, and music, all part of the same package with endless variations on a formula around the world, so that now real recognizes real recognizes Miles Davis recognizes Picasso recognizes Bruce Lee, etc. But African slaves and their descendents are such a huge and specific influence that it takes real mental work on the part of white supremacy to discount it.

― Pete Scholtes, Saturday, 5 May 2007 01:10 (eighteen years ago)

ever try and trace the development/use of the accordion in music? good luck! the mexicans apparently got it from the germans. but don't quote me on that.

Or the Slovenians, according to my aunt.

― Pete Scholtes, Saturday, 5 May 2007 01:23 (eighteen years ago)

And in fact, anyone playing modern popular music in any form, regardless of race, owes a debt to black music as a whole

Surely. It's all either crossover or purity. I always prefer crossover.

― Geir Hongro, Saturday, 5 May 2007 09:34 (eighteen years ago)

And it's interesting that the ones mentioned are acts such as Talking Heads, Stones, Eminem etc. Acts whose music is almost entirely black. Even Genesis and Yes were influenced by African American music or there would have been no need for Phil Collins or Bill Bruford other than to create effects once in a while. All "white" popular music builds on elements from African American music to some extent, the question being should be entirely "black" or be based on a mixture of "black" and "white" music that builds on both traditions. I tend to prefer the latter, as showcased in an excellent way by English 60s bands, 70s symphonic rockers, 80s New Romatnics/Synthpop and 90s Britpop.

― Geir Hongro, Saturday, 5 May 2007 09:37 (eighteen years ago)

No.

― Dom Passantino, Saturday, 5 May 2007 11:33 (eighteen years ago)

oh man, i kept thinking of this thread when i was watching that ahmet ertegun documentary on pbs last nite! "black music and white imitation", ahmet kept saying that. ahmet talking about jerry wexler yelling at crosby, stills, & nash to get out of his office was hilarious. "jerry, stop, i just SIGNED them." jerry hated the rock.

― scott seward, Saturday, 5 May 2007 13:11 (eighteen years ago)

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White artists criticized for trying to be black, and vice versa - is this a good argument?