Best King Crimson Studio Track from 1981-1984

Hmm...interesting. I wasn't expecting that at all as the #1.

Thela Hun Ginjeet

GTFOOH!

Wait, I voted for "The Sheltering Sky" too. Rock Hardy, did you not vote?

Uh, I thought I did!

Maybe I just messed up my vote. It could have been some log-in weirdness.

frame by frame was robbed

"I can feel your heartbeat, heartbeat.."

:(

Thela Hun Ginjeet is great, why all the complaints?

I like it, but the best one they did from 1981-84? The novelty of Belew's narrative eventually wears off, and the chorus is a bit on the grating side after a while.

I was listening to Three of a Perfect Pair the other day, some of that material seems sadly under-appraised, especially the instrumentals. The whole apocalyptic-industrial vibe to Side Two ("Industry", "Dig Me", and "No Warning") is pretty fierce.

All of a sudden today I decided I was obsessed with "Frame By Frame". I've not yet been able to get into any of their albums as a whole, but I'd like to think I'm closer than ever with this early 80's stuff of theirs. Sure, I love Matte Kudasai & Sleepless, but I didn't know I liked Frame By Frame, too until I saw their performance on the Old Grey Whistle Test of that song about a month ago. Still it was only today that I decided I was obsessed with it. I really would like to get into at least one of their albums from this period. I tried once before and got nowhere. We shall see.

In the last week have undergone an unexpected life transformation

from finding 80s crimson cringe/yuk/affront to core values

to being totally obsessed with Discipline in particular

have even got to the point where I don’t really hear Belew’s vocals - although it is interesting on the Absent Lovers live set that some of those awkward lines seem to get a cheer, like “i repeat myself” etc - i think the 80s might have been more forgiving of that kind of (v.basic!) would-be clever clevef self-aware schtick

anyway i think Frame By Frame is their best actual song - helped by Belew’s good, straight up vocal performance - but i think it is actually Tony Levin’s backing vocals that elevate it, just wonderful and a bit strange, reminds me of some of those amazing Tony Visconti b.vox that really land Bowie songs

Ok yep but I think this line-up’s greatest achievement is probably The Sheltering Sky? one vote seems too few so i am posting on the internet about it

Found this live version absolutely captivating, imagine seeing humans do this!! what a bunch of beautiful freaks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0XSOKQDHTU

The Belew/Levin harmonies on "Three of a Perfect Pair" are great, too. That song has always broken my brain, but watching Belew do it solo is up there with Lindsey Buckingham's solo "Big Love:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f30bFAaGcs

First comment: "Only at a King Crimson concert can you actually have a crowd accurate clap to an odd time signature, lol."

Would have voted Satori in Tangiers

have even got to the point where I don’t really hear Belew’s vocals - although it is interesting on the Absent Lovers live set that some of those awkward lines seem to get a cheer, like “i repeat myself” etc - i think the 80s might have been more forgiving of that kind of (v.basic!) would-be clever clevef self-aware schtick

the 80s were loaded with that kind of shit it was like the primary new form of humor back then

Belew's exaggerated "BROUHAHA" on the live versions of "Elephant Talk" is the worst point of that.

I like the increasing cheers "I DO think it's good!" get on Absent Lovers. Belew's always very smiley at that point on camera.

I agree with emsworth that "Frame by Frame" is probably the answer. maybe not the 80s KC song I enjoy the most - that could be "Matte Kudasai" or "Sheltering Sky", or maybe the Absent Lovers versions of "Waiting Man" or "Sleepless", the latter of which is one of the best live performances of a song I've ever heard. so good it kinda ruins the studio version. but "Frame by Frame" is the one that I think really demonstrates their true potential. none of the bands they sound like or were accused of imitating could pull that one off. it's one of those songs that made me wish I understood music theory better, because you just know there's some real cool mathematical shit going on there. but it doesn't sound like "math rock" or anything like that. if you weren't paying full attention you'd just think it was a cool pop song.

Something interesting I realized in regards to the three 80s KC albums is they don't really build upon one another, instead they're like three iterations of what their sound could be, if that makes sense. People complain that the leadoff tracks of Beat and ToaPP sound just like Discipline but to me that's kind of the point? Like yes, we could do an album with that sound, or maybe in a slightly different world that's just one element that they're building a song off of. Discipline is KC focusing on that knotty guitar sound, Beat is them doing an art-pop album, Three of a Perfect Pair is them doing an album in the spirit of King Crimson, where it mixes strange pop songs with jams and experimentation, some of which isn't really complete - it's a bit like Starless and Bible Black I suppose. And the songs are strange - that gnarly guitar bit on the chorus of "Model Man" is really something in that context.

really enjoyed that "Sheltering Sky" performance by the way, I kinda wondered if that was Bruford or a sample, guess I have my answer. again, people compared this iteration to Talking Heads a bunch, but there's no way they would've done something like this where they're all improvising and making strange noises for 10 minutes!

The early '80s stuff was before Fripp shifted to his new standard tuning, which means tuning in perfect fifths, which is what violins, cellos, etc. use. I barely know any music theory, but I've always felt the interlocking guitars on stuff like "Frame by Frame" were any early attempt at sort of recalling the harmonic interplay of strings.

The first album is the only one that strikes a balance between songs and improvisation/instrumentals. I never found this was an issue with any incarnation of the 69-74 band, maybe because Belew wasn't merely singer but also songwriter for the group...so he seemed to have an expectation that he was there to "express himself" that Lake, Burrell or Wetton didn't bring to the group.
It's funny that I think that I don't really like Belew as a vocalist, but the only songs I like from the last two records are a couple of the "pop" songs. I bought Three of a Perfect Pair on cassette for $0.99 and listened to it a lot, but stuff like "Industry" and "Nuages" never got beyond "interesting idea" for me. Even something like "Waiting Man" seems like there is something missing to make it satisfying.

The whole apocalyptic-industrial vibe to Side Two ("Industry", "Dig Me", and "No Warning") is pretty fierce.

Yeah, but also somehow fussy? And "plastic"-sounding? I'd rather listen to, say, Pere Ubu for this.

recalling the harmonic interplay of strings

Supposedly they were thinking of gamelan orchestras.

Anyway I'd have voted for "Frame by Frame".

the Belew/KC dynamic is weird for sure, because I think what the group is doing with that particular lineup in that particular era means that you need songs. and Belew can write 'em, but they're Belew songs through and through. the other three are great at coming up with certain bits and I'm sure Fripp has a lot of technical music writing skills but ultimately you need songs and idk how much Fripp can write those (even on Exposure you get the sense that the guest singers had to bring something to the table). prior eras of KC didn't really have that; Giles wrote most of In the Court, Lizard and Islands were kind of all over the place, and the Wetton band had tunes but the meat of the group lied in Fripp's doom riffing and progressive worldbuilding. 80s Crim feels more like an extension of Belew than it does King Crimson, which is still very good imo, but yeah...its a weird dynamic

Even something like "Waiting Man" seems like there is something missing to make it satisfying.

check out the Absent Lovers version then, whatever's missing is definitely there

saw Steve Hackett last night and a guy came out to make an announcement that Belew, Levin, Steve Vai, and someone else were getting together to play 80's Crimson tunes, and they're coming to your town, keep your eyes peeled yall

probably pat on drums, they've done that before (minus vai...weird fripp substitution, and not someone I generally like, but he does play one of my favorite guitar solos of all time on PIL's Album)

the drummer is apparently some guy named Vinnie Colaiuta? appears to be an ex-Zappa dude so he's gotta be good

oh shit

oh weird. well I'd probably go to this

Belew/Vai/Levin/Colaiuta is a O_O dream team, I can see myself hitting the road for one of these shows.

I think this line-up’s greatest achievement is probably The Sheltering Sky?

this is correct

is there any info on this belew tour somewhere online yet? haven't been able to dig it up

yes, sheltering sky is towering

I'm excited to see Carey in the line-up as well, I would say he's probably the best rock drummer in the world at this point. Tool are wrapping up their tour and don't have anything on the books after June so the timing is right.

Tony Levin was really the prototype for the late '00s mustachioed, suspendered Brooklyn hipster 2.0.

Also that Below noise solo in the Thela Hun Ginjeet clip >>>>>>>>

Also Belew throws up the Roc at the end, truly prescient.

worth mentioning that Belew's voice has really held up through the years. last I heard him was on the Gizmodrome live album - Copeland sounds older, Mark King sounds older, but Belew somehow sounds exactly like he did in the 80s, it's kind of surreal

Clean living?

i'm real excited to see this tour if it comes here. we got a little Belew era at the KC show I went to but it needed Adrian to make it really sizzle, Jakko was better at the 70s stuff.

would kill to hear "Matte Kudesai".

Fripp and Belew apparently had a lot of clashes at the time over the album mixes and other creative disagreements, I wonder if and how these performances will be de-Fripped to any noticeable degree.

It's certainly hard to imagine Vai playing with the discipline and restraint of Fripp, but it would be interesting to see him using those chops for good.

I knew a guy in high school who was super into Vai's weird guitar tricks (in addition to being a great drummer). It's funny to think that the version of Vai who used all those tricks in the context of pop and slightly less nerdy/more interesting music is...Belew.

I'm not finding the clip on YouTube at the moment, but k.d. lang covered Matte Kudasai on her "By Request" show and said it was a huge influence on the Ingenue album.

seen the video of her cover, it's really good!

I love Relâché, the Adrian Belew/Robin Scott/Ryuichi Sakamoto instrumental from Sakamoto's album Left Handed Dream. But I hate Robin Scott. Will I like Belew era Crimson?

Honestly this thread makes these '80s Crimson albums sound interesting enough that I've been planning to try them anyway, but just today I realized Relâché has a Belew credit.

Just stream one, no monetary investment

Ive got a good-sport friend going to see Belew et al with me in November. He'd never heard these '80s albums before, and it was a hoot to watch him listen to them for the first time. In fact, when we were listening another in-the-dark friend came over, and his reaction was more or less the same. I always forget that most people don't have the time to be music obsessives, lol. The first of these friends, last year I played him the 1977 Cheap Trick Live at the Whisky album and his jaw literally dropped. He'd never heard anything more than the live "I Want You to Want Me" from "Budokon."

BEAT lives

pretty good setlist - if this came to Australia I would be SO THERE*

*reserve the right to change this intention once video emerges

All over YT now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIgxRK914WI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GTRL-Sf1D4

curious if I wanna look at the setlist, I mean I doubt there will be any surprises, but who knows

Struggling a lot on this one though... I'd absoutely get tickets for this IF I hadn't seen 80s Crimson back then.

based on the video that is a pretty fkn strong first outing

Jesus christ, Tony Levin is 78 and somehow looks like the youngest guy on that stage.

Full show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEv47eU-YEY

I saw some videos of Levin in the 70s before he was fully bald, never would've guessed who it actually was lol. he was fuckin sick on the bass back then too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj31gjULiOs

(i wish tickets weren't $150+)

i found tickets for the napa show for $40, good ones too

(about to leave for it now)

Looks like I can make the Thousand Oaks show in November- good price too!

anyone dubious about Vai can relax, his shredding is minimal (it does happen a few times, but in the correct spirit). The show in Napa was loud AF for an outdoor show, but that sounds better than the first night in San Jose where apparently things were very muddy (that's a problem with the venue). A lot of these songs came off as more aggressive than on the album; having never seen the 80's line up in person, hard to compare; I did see every tour from Thrak on, and some of the wild aggressive playing comes from Belew and Levin so it's not just the new guys. In fact Carey is really restrained and plays an electronic kit a lot of the time. Sheltering Sky was the highlight for me.

I think it’s so cool that Vai is playing with these guys

I guess Mayer wasn’t available

I might as well use this revive to mention one of my favorite ideas I've ever had -- some band covering Discipline with Neil Young + Crazy Horse style/arrangements and then Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere with '81 KC style/arrangements.

vai was fripp's recommendation when, I believe, he declined to return. looks like we can consider Fripp fully retired at this point. But we're in a nice era with Beat, Stick Men, Tu-ner, and probably configurations yet to be conceived, all floating around

David Cross is doing a Larks Tongues show too

one thing that is funny about this is the stark difference in presence. the last KC tours were amazing, of course, but were recitals; all the players in suits, the arrangements rather formal; intense at times but not full of improvisation; you very much knew what you'd get from show to show. and no photos of course. Beat, on the other hand, feel kind of wild, rough, Belew's soloing unpredictable, and, notably, the drummer wears shorts on stage.

yeah i also feel Beat will be even better with a few shows under their belt

Belew has talked about wanting to tour it internationally- I would be so keen but also suffering from anticipatory regret that if it does happen I won’t get to see these perfect setlists

one of those situations where this is probably the sweet spot of them taking joy in rediscovering the material and finding new things to say within the music and arrangements

normally i don’t like 100% old stuff shows but new material from this outfit is high-risk proposition imo

if they added some double trio songs like walking on air I wouldn't necessarily cry; but all of that stuff has had a healthy live airing over years, as opposed to Model Man, which I don't think KC even ever played live in 84

conspicuous absences: discipline; requiem (this is basically a Fripp improv though); the howler (this would go over well); two hands (this wouldn't); nuages (also mostly fripp, I think? can't recall right now); no warning. They could pull off Larks 2, that lineup played it regularly.

throwing in solo belew tracks from the era would work but I don't think he will do that, he really seems to want to focus on KC of this era. thank god! i love these albums and have always felt alone in that regard.

Not alone. These albums were always my favorite KC era - still several years ahead of whatever year it is now

One of the dudes I’m going to the show with invited us over to listen to the 3 albums on his huge sound system…Bruford and Levin really doing some special stuff on those albums

hell yeah

well whatever, Fripp can say that Vai is the best guy to take his seat, and in terms of attracting squiddly-iddly shred dead enders who've never heard of No pussyfooting, Remain in light or Low, he probably is, since Satch is running around with Sammy. But somebody like David Torn or some other soundscaper would clearly be better than Vai: the clip of "Neal and Jack and Me" showed him standing stock still, focusing very very hard on the interlocking parts and not preening and prancing and sucking his cheeks in, and then as soon as "strained spaghetti!!!" is intoned, there he goes preening, prancing and sucking his cheeks in. Adrian himself seems to be somewhat tentative; this shit is REALLY REALLY tough to play. less than a month ago, he was still doing dates with Jerry Harrison and those youngsters doing RiL shit.

I'm going to see this show next month, and I'm sure i'll have a great time, but the amount of Tool/shred shitheads will be vexing.

yeah relistening to all this yesterday it really struck me how incredibly tricky all this is, I don't think there's anything quite like it

My one criticism is that Vai and Belew have not nailed the interlocked arpeggios in stuff like Frame by Frame. That’s an identifying sound of the band, and maybe impossible to replicate for Belew with anyone else, as I think part of the reason it worked so well was a spiritual thing beyond technical abilities.

attracting squiddly-iddly shred dead enders who've never heard of No pussyfooting, Remain in light or Low

I think Beat will probably attract more Fripp acolytes keeping an eagle-eye on Vai to police any excessive exuberance.

some band covering Discipline with Neil Young + Crazy Horse style/arrangements

OK, but you wouldn't have much more than the vocal melody, lyrics and maybe basic chord changes left?

Model Man, which I don't think KC even ever played live in 84

Right, they never played it, it's the only "new" live song.

two hands (this wouldn't go over well)

They never played this either, but I think this is just a notch below the apparently- beloved "Matte Kudesai".

Seein em now and I’m fuckin stoked

Are you watching the stream?

I’m there

Awesome so far

Oh wait the stream is next week thought it was today

just wait until sheltering sky

holy shit yes that was incredible ^^

and then Sleepless after

both sets were great but man the entire 2nd was insane