Taking sides: Experimental acts going pop vs. Pop acts going experimental

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You have a prejudice against one or the other? Does it say anything about you?

― Alba, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 22:49 (eighteen years ago)

how can it be that you havent asked this question before alba? its almost the perfect alba question

im not really a fan of the former, though there are probably many examples of where its worked (and disliking that brings you close to being one of those i prefer the early stuff people)

actually, i dont think i like the latter that much either. i really do like artists that stay in one place and basically make the same record again and again i think

― 696, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 22:58 (eighteen years ago)

The latter is usually more interesting (Talk Talk, Scott Walker immediately jump to mind)...

― Joe, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 23:00 (eighteen years ago)

I'm pretty sure that my ideas about music say nothing about me.

― admrl, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 23:26 (eighteen years ago)

"ideas about music"

― admrl, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 23:28 (eighteen years ago)

how can it be that you havent asked this question before alba? its almost the perfect alba question

Ha ha. I have been meaning to ask it for ages but was putting if off until I'd thought of a good follow-up paragragh, which I never did.

By the way, by "going pop/experimental" I don't mean gradually ending up that way with their career arc, I mean either bold shifts or one-off dabblings in that direction.

― Alba, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 23:33 (eighteen years ago)

both are better than people saying "omg experimental act has gone pop!" when they finally deign to write a tune or "omg pop act has gone experimental!" when they get a funny-sounding loop in, which is all it really is 90% of the time

― lex pretend, Thursday, 10 May 2007 06:35 (eighteen years ago)

I hope this becomes a long thread, with lots of examples for me to check out.

― nicky lo-fi, Thursday, 10 May 2007 06:55 (eighteen years ago)

expect much quibbling over defns of "experimental" and "pop"

― lex pretend, Thursday, 10 May 2007 07:01 (eighteen years ago)

I can't think of many examples of the former anyway. Mouse on Mars and Einstürzende Neubauten are the only ones I can come up with, and I guess Radical Connector is really awesome (though I have the feeling that I'm in the minority thinking this), but Neubauten's latest albums haven't been very interesting.

― dryga, Thursday, 10 May 2007 07:08 (eighteen years ago)

The majority of great pop is experimental, son.

― King Boy Pato, Thursday, 10 May 2007 07:18 (eighteen years ago)

That's funny dryga, I was thinking it was harder to come up with examples of the latter. As lex implies, things like I'm A Slave 4 You. Enough for people to say "Gosh, in another context that beat would be seen as pretty on the edge".

As for the latter. Surely there are a lots of examples of uncommercial indie bands consciously "going pop" for the odd track. The Wake Up Boo! syndrome.

Anyway, my feeling is that the latter gets flak from both rockists (for selling out) and anti-rockists (for being crap at pop), whereas the former gets an easier ride.

― Alba, Thursday, 10 May 2007 07:24 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not sure there is much of this going on any more - maybe I'm just out of the loop.

The difficulty with experimental acts going pop is that they tend to to try one thing, either repeat it too closely or don't try to develop it, even though the 'one thing' itself is great.

examples: Scritti Politi's 'Sweetest Girl' (sudden lurch to pop and then not enough further movement, got stuck in a samey groove)
Wire's 'Outdoor Miner' lovely genre busting, wasn't a hit, Wire scampered back to the Art house.

Pop acts nicking a bit of something much more left field is often much better, it makes for great pop music.

― Sandy Blair, Thursday, 10 May 2007 07:41 (eighteen years ago)

i think pop acts trying something experimental do get an easier ride, and it reminds of that cliché about the newspapers - that the staff of The Sun could easily run The Guardian for the day, but the Guardian writers wouldn't have a clue how to produce The Sun. ie there's this idea that it's harder to fake form than content. i think i probably believe that.

x-post Sandy OTM i reckon

― jabba hands, Thursday, 10 May 2007 07:52 (eighteen years ago)

Going pop is always better than going experimental. At least if going experimental implies abandoning traditional sense of melody and/or harmony in any possible way.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 10 May 2007 08:23 (eighteen years ago)

As for the latter. Surely there are a lots of examples of uncommercial indie bands consciously "going pop" for the odd track. The Wake Up Boo! syndrome.

uncommercial indie going pop is an entirely different beast though, i mean the boo radleys are surely the least experimental band ever!

― lex pretend, Thursday, 10 May 2007 08:41 (eighteen years ago)

i mean the boo radleys are surely the least experimental band ever!

Pish and tosh. I don't particularly like the Boo Radleys but they were all over the shop trying different styles, ideas and methods.

― Billy Dods, Thursday, 10 May 2007 08:46 (eighteen years ago)

Yes.

― Mark G, Thursday, 10 May 2007 08:50 (eighteen years ago)

lex should be tied up and forced to listen to 'c'mon kids' from start to finish

― Just got offed, Thursday, 10 May 2007 08:50 (eighteen years ago)

Pop act that went experimental: The Radiohead Syndrome
Experimental act that went pop: James, Del Amitri (apparently)

― Mark G, Thursday, 10 May 2007 08:51 (eighteen years ago)

Boo Radleys went pop for one album. Plus part of "King Size" is kind of pop too. But they would also experiment a lot.

They were at their best when they experimented only slightly, like they also did in the "Wake Up" album.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, 10 May 2007 09:16 (eighteen years ago)

Kingsize is all pop (except for the intro on track "one")

― Mark G, Thursday, 10 May 2007 09:21 (eighteen years ago)

have fun! Lose all your fans! Hurrah! I highly reccomend.

― Masonic Boom, Thursday, 10 May 2007 09:24 (eighteen years ago)

Cornelius Cardew may be the classic example of experimental into pop that really didn't work, with the godawful People's Band. Funnily enough, Cornelius worked quite well going in the other direction. Not that his albums are wildly experimental but they are compared to Flipper's Guitar.

― Matt #2, Thursday, 10 May 2007 09:56 (eighteen years ago)

experimental into 'traditional', or vice versa, might give some different answers

― 696, Thursday, 10 May 2007 10:04 (eighteen years ago)

or as lex says, uncommercial into pop, or vice versa

― 696, Thursday, 10 May 2007 10:05 (eighteen years ago)

Stravinsky

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 10:06 (eighteen years ago)

[obGrimlyWanksOnAboutOMDpost]

actually, OMD managed to do both. sort-of. in that they began by fannying about with radios and tapes in 1977/78; wrote a pop song by accident ("electricity"); got signed to a major label and did three albums of occasionally left-field pop; then made "dazzle ships", the single most experimental album by a pop band evah ... and lost half their fans. so experimental to pop and back to experimental again. yay.

then they went to montserrat. and america. and things were never the same again.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 10 May 2007 10:23 (eighteen years ago)

cf also the human league.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 10 May 2007 10:24 (eighteen years ago)

kraftwerk and frank zappa both have to fit in here somewhere.

― Eisbaer, Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:04 (eighteen years ago)

Kraftwerk definitely

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:05 (eighteen years ago)

Cabaret Voltaire?

― Mark G, Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:07 (eighteen years ago)

Even Genesis P-Orridge did it! Not exactly uncommon is it?

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:08 (eighteen years ago)

the former is the best thing ever
the latter is the second best thing ever

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:26 (eighteen years ago)

Goldfrapp I guess went from the if not that experimental, then atleast very conceptual "Felt Mountain" (recorded in a bungalow in some remote forest) to the super-poppy "Black Cherry" and "Supernature".

Jazzkammer went crazy experimental in 2006 with "Metal Music Machine" (yes, referring to Lou Reed, and under the alias Jazkamer).

― the Dirt, Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:28 (eighteen years ago)

More people should say what they prefer.

― Alba, Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:49 (eighteen years ago)

Experimental acts going pop.

But I would say that because I've always tried to be the latter and miserably failed. :-(

― Masonic Boom, Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:51 (eighteen years ago)

experimental acts going pop, too. but i've no idea why.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:53 (eighteen years ago)

There's not as many of the latter than the former, so I tend to find the former more interesting

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:53 (eighteen years ago)

i don't know if i believe what i said tho. my heart likes pop to be 'experimental' in some way but still successful and popular. i don't have enough of a history with 'O Superman' to love it as much as others do but i love the idea of it and that it was successful more than i could ever love the track itself probably.

'october love song' was, as i see it, by an experimental act doing pop and it wasn't successful (commercially).

but it's interesting when the experimental act going pop is more successful commercially than the pop act going experimental (commercially unsuccessful examples of this? um...the Rebel MC making jungle tracks? there will be countless more/better ones i'm sure!).

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:54 (eighteen years ago)

perhaps the best thing is when it's never clear from the start whether the artist is more one thing than the other (Kraftwerk? The Associates? The Knife?)

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:57 (eighteen years ago)

Kraftwerk were very definitely experimental at the start

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:58 (eighteen years ago)

i'm not denying that

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 11:59 (eighteen years ago)

In fact, in terms of German music, Kraftwerk went all the way from being one of the most experimental of bands to being the poppiest

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 12:02 (eighteen years ago)

Experimental acts going pop, as in This Heat "The Rough With the Smooth".

― sonderangerbot, Thursday, 10 May 2007 12:03 (eighteen years ago)

Can's 'I Want More' is great pop

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 12:05 (eighteen years ago)

I love hearing both but I rarely end up loving either. If I had to choose I'd take the latter, especially if it's a pop act I like: it's interesting to hear people I appreciate stretching and challenging themselves.

The motives behind each move are very different I suspect.

― Groke, Thursday, 10 May 2007 12:10 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think you can decide as a generalisation. At the risk of stating the obvious it depends on the act. Scritti Pollitti's move from the fringes to the mainstream was more or less contemporary with the Thompson Twins but the results were notably different.

Sad that the move from leftfield to pop doesn't happen now in the same way that it did in 81-83.

― Billy Dods, Thursday, 10 May 2007 13:17 (eighteen years ago)

there are so many lazy assumptions as to what "experimental" means going on here!

fwiw mid-period destiny's child were more experimental than anyone mentioned in this thread yet, and they have always been pop.

― lex pretend, Thursday, 10 May 2007 13:35 (eighteen years ago)

you're being just as lazy

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 13:42 (eighteen years ago)

i think too much is made of Jerkins/Timbland etc. being 'experimental'. bringing in a Persian flute or an acid squelch...great but so what when the songs essentiall remain the same. as you say these artists were already pop so they don't really warrant much mention on this thread?

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 13:44 (eighteen years ago)

i'm just automatically talking about production there but if you want to argue DC as experimental vocally or lyrically then please do.

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 13:48 (eighteen years ago)

more experimental to bring weird elements into a fixed pop song format than to abandon it entirely?

― lex pretend, Thursday, 10 May 2007 13:51 (eighteen years ago)

Experimental = music that man on Clapham omnibus would say sounds "a bit weird".

― Alba, Thursday, 10 May 2007 13:55 (eighteen years ago)

(after removal of vocals, anyway)

― Alba, Thursday, 10 May 2007 13:55 (eighteen years ago)

i don't think this works as a more/less argument. a lot of the time whatever seems experimental for a pop song is distracting the listener from what's compromised or cliched about it at the same time. this is a good thing generally because we believe in pop and the art of illusion. but it's surely wrong to think of pop and experimentation as opponents in this way and i don't mean to do that. good pop doesn't have to be particularly experimental (this just means trying to do something beyond the established criteria of 'a song') but for me it does seem to be a big bonus.

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 14:00 (eighteen years ago)

Sonic Youth didn't exactly go pop, but they went from non-songs to songs.

― Rock Hardy, Thursday, 10 May 2007 14:15 (eighteen years ago)

Um no, they always had songs. Their first EP is the poppiest thing they released!

― Alex in SF, Thursday, 10 May 2007 14:49 (eighteen years ago)

BTW while both can be interesting, I think I'm more inclined to like experimental acts going pop more (Yoko Ono, Arthur Russell, Throbbing Gristle, This Heat, Kraftwerk, Velvets, etc.)

― Alex in SF, Thursday, 10 May 2007 14:53 (eighteen years ago)

Japan (the band, not the country) makes a pretty good pop-goes-experimental argument...(even though I prefer their earlier, glammy stuff)...

― henry s, Thursday, 10 May 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

i prefer experimental goes pop. i tend to always prefer things that end up pop.

simple minds is an exception.

what about across multiple bands? perhaps john lydon pistols --> PiL. I prefer PiL.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:13 (eighteen years ago)

Simple Minds made some great pop, then some terrible pop after that and sadly that stuck.

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:14 (eighteen years ago)

same goes for PiL. man 'Warrior' is just ridiculous.

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:15 (eighteen years ago)

this read is difficult! it assumes a constant into one direction. grimly OTM with OMD upthread. it was the first thing that came to mind.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:16 (eighteen years ago)

xpost. Also Devo.

― everything, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:36 (eighteen years ago)

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