The MC5 and Sly And The Family Stone...

Julio to thread!

you know...obviously don't agree w/this--way too reductive--but in some senses it's not a bad thought, seeing how influential both were on so many people. but I'd pick the Stooges over the 5. Sly, there's no question.

2 most essential bands for me thiz week = Van Der Graaf Generator & Funkadelic. Sly & family stone i like, but I will have to say that I think MC5 were utter utter garbage, so fukc them, right?

Sly and the Family Stone is one of my favorites. I don't like them quite as much as James Brown and the JB's but that's like comparing blood oranges with tangerines for me. Larry Graham is one badass mofo. There's A Riot Goin' On is as angry & essential as it could be, and it really is probably the best single funk album from the 70's. There's just something about James Brown's sum of 1969-1975 super heavy funk though. Without either, so much breakbeat style music wouldn't be the same. I think that Stand!,TARGO, and Fresh might be the strongest three-in-a-row in pop history. Only competition I could think of is the other Stones with Let It Bleed, Sticky Fingers, & Exile on Main Street. But those 3 aren't as listenable day in and day out for me as Sly's Big 3.

As for MC5, I noticed some hostility here in ILM. I don't find them essential either, no doubt influential. If I were alive then, I would have more than likely dug the MC5. Easier to not like due to the rock revisionists and Rhino people, but they thrashed when not too many others did.

How comes everybody mentions the MC5 round here?

'cause they rock.

i saw a clip of them on some tv special the other night and thought it was at the drive in.

''Julio to thread!''

Damn fucking right!

Down with the fucking garbage that is MC5 and their brand of 'rock'.

There's enough for me to quibble with but I got some work to do.

''How comes everybody mentions the MC5 round here?''

Yeah, I know, they need their heads examined.

Norman, good article in the new Mojo re Van Der Graaf Generator. Never heard their stuff, what's worth seeking out?

I like "Pawn Hearts" and "H to He Who am the Only One" best. CD reissues shd be really cheap, so little money wastage if the suck for you.

Comment suspended until somebody does a salvage job on the mix of 'Back in the USA'. (BTW I thought the 'new' 'Raw Power' sounded terrible)

Dave, what's wrong w/ the Rhino CD version of 'Back In The USA' - sounded ok to me, a little 'dry'/trebly maybe, but nothing too horrible (but then I think the 'Raw Power' remix is sooo much better than the orig - now when are they going to wipe the sludge off 'Kill City?)

MC5::worst band ever.

Van Der Graaf Generator::for that bit on Pawn Hearts (third track, err, 7th movement), where the voice speeds up into a cascade of big motorbiking madness, and the drums whore on past. Amazink! And fer Refugees which is also immense and there only good 'song'.

Julio::right on!

i like the MC5 and VDGG. any "two most essential and brilliant bands ever" that doesnt include Johnny & the Hurricanes is some sad shit tho.

High Time is one of the best rock albums ever recorded. Long, sludgy songs with great soulful vocals. I really can't understand how any could be turned off by songs like "Poison" and "Over and Over." I can understand how someone could be turned off by Kick Out the Jams -- that record is not very good. But High Times is sheer brilliance.

And of course the Family Stone are incredible.

Not having heard it Yancey I'm turned off by "sludgey" and "soulful" in your description. I'm assuming "soulful" means what it usually does in rock i.e. "bullying".

Oh I like the fam.stone though, lots.

I mean soulful as in soul. As in maybe Otis Redding with the flu. I'm not sure what you mean by bullying. What do you mean?

And sludgy means dirty, muddy power chords with lots of guitar solos.

Norman:
I will have to say that I think MC5 were utter utter garbage

Norman, go listen to "High School" & (especially) "Shakin' Street"!

while you're at it, if you like Peter Hammill & Co check out Eyeless In Gaza (the Van Der Graaf of postpunk in a weird sorta way)
just be prepared for shorter songs (mostly) and more stripped-down lineup

''High Time is one of the best rock albums ever recorded. Long, sludgy songs with great soulful vocals.''

For those of you who were 'on my case' in the last MC5 thread I tell you now this is exactly the kind of crap I rally against. I mean, why is this 'soulful' and something else isn't.

You want lots of guitar solos. You know, something that's gonna shake that ear drum. Well, I wouldn't go to the '5 for it.

I can't comment on Sly. haven't heard it.

I'm not sure what you mean by bullying. What do you mean?

Otis Redding. That kind of pulpit-rooted, aggressive emotionalising. Occasionally it's a good thing - almost never, for me, when 'rock singers' do it.

And yeah I know what "sludgey" means - I'd be lying if I said I can't imagine why anyone would like that kind of music but I do find it increasingly hard to get anything out of.

I don't think i've ever heard a note by the mc5

i'll tape one for you if you like.

oh yeah \& i like the fam. stone too of course, who doesnt.

"Otis Redding. That kind of pulpit-rooted, aggressive emotionalising. Occasionally it's a good thing - almost never, for me, when 'rock singers' do it" - tom i dunno what you'd think but i don't find rob tyner to be 1 of those kind of singers anyway.

ok but just small one

i cant anyway @ the moment, my tape deck is rooted. but i will start listening thru all their stuff to find that 1 special note JUST 4-U.

Anyone who thinks that Otis Redding's vocal style is bullying... I can't understand that in the least. Otis Redding, James Brown and Arthur Alexander are three of my favorite singers of all time, no question. What would you prefer -- the nasally whine of Lou Barlow?!?

"For those of you who were 'on my case' in the last MC5 thread I tell you now this is exactly the kind of crap I rally against. I mean, why is this 'soulful' and something else isn't.

You want lots of guitar solos. You know, something that's gonna shake that ear drum. Well, I wouldn't go to the '5 for it."

Why is their style "soulful?" Well, even though they were from Detroit, I think the MC5's style takes a lot from the Stax/Volt sound, only instead of horn flourishes, there are guitar riffs. The music is, at least on High Times, slowed down, kind of oozing through the melodies. Back in the USA, on the other hand, is essentially the template for the first Ramones album.

I don't want lots of guitar solos. I generally don't like guitar soloing, I find it pretty dull. But the way the MC5 do it, I enjoy. It's not wankery -- Wayne certainly isn't showing off many chops -- it fits the mood of whatever they are playing. Normally I find guitar solos superfluous, but not with this band or with the Stooges. I can't explain why in objective terms, but it just seems like these bands give their solos an emotional tone that a lot of other groups seem to lack.

Like I said, it can sometimes be a good thing. I like Otis but find him a bit exhausting - James Brown bullies superbly, so do a lot of hip-hoppers. Lou Barlow? Christ no - bullying is better than passive- aggression in this context!

''I don't want lots of guitar solos. I generally don't like guitar soloing, I find it pretty dull. But the way the MC5 do it, I enjoy. It's not wankery -- Wayne certainly isn't showing off many chops -- it fits the mood of whatever they are playing. Normally I find guitar solos superfluous, but not with this band or with the Stooges. I can't explain why in objective terms, but it just seems like these bands give their solos an emotional tone that a lot of other groups seem to lack.''

Having heard 'Kick out the jams' i must say the guitars don't really do it for me. The problem is that its tied down to the rock beat far too musch for my liking. Mostly, i don't like soloing for its own sake (but i don't dismiss all of it as you do).

I think people overrate the '5 and i think the goodwill towards them has come now because they were not that popular when they were doing their stuff.

''Why is their style "soulful?" Well, even though they were from Detroit, I think the MC5's style takes a lot from the Stax/Volt sound, only instead of horn flourishes, there are guitar riffs.''

So the horn flourishes on those records are 'soulful'. Haven't heard those records but I really have a problem with this definition of 'soul'.

''I can't explain why in objective terms, but it just seems like these bands give their solos an emotional tone that a lot of other groups seem to lack.''

I don't agree that because a solo has an emotional tone then that will be a better solo.

"Having heard 'Kick out the jams' i must say the guitars don't really do it for me. The problem is that its tied down to the rock beat far too musch for my liking."

What else have you heard other than Kick Out the Jams? Because I'm not talking about that song or record. I'm talking about High Time, which is a much different album.

"I think people overrate the '5 and i think the goodwill towards them has come now because they were not that popular when they were doing their stuff."

Sure, there's revisionism as to their importance. But why let this affect how you listen to a group? Why does this matter at all? So since they were once underappreciated, but now they are overappreciated (two things I certainly agree with), they suck?

"So the horn flourishes on those records are 'soulful'. Haven't heard those records but I really have a problem with this definition of 'soul'."

Why don't you tell me what soul music is then. If Stax/Volt isn't soul music, tell me what is.

Well this is the problem with the word 'soulful'. It has two meanings: 'like soul music' or 'having soul' (i.e. expressing some inner essence of man, I guess) - if you think soul (the music) has soul (the mysterious attribute) that's not a problem of course. Maybe Julio doesn't.

"Well this is the problem with the word 'soulful'. It has two meanings: 'like soul music' or 'having soul' (i.e. expressing some inner essence of man, I guess) - if you think soul (the music) has soul (the mysterious attribute) that's not a problem of course. Maybe Julio doesn't."

Well when I say soul, I'm not talking about hymns or mysticism, I'm talking about soul music -- R&B, Motown, Stax/Volt, black music. I assumed that was understood.

I like The MC5 because they make me twitch and sweat and jerk around the room.

Jams over High Time, USA somewhere else entirely.

KOtJ sucks. HT is incredible. Who knew?

''Well when I say soul, I'm not talking about hymns or mysticism, I'm talking about soul music -- R&B, Motown, Stax/Volt, black music. I assumed that was understood.''

Why does R&B and motown have 'soul' and other types of music don't.

Of course, I know you're talking abt genres and classifying music. I tend to hate these things.

''Well this is the problem with the word 'soulful'. It has two meanings: 'like soul music' or 'having soul' (i.e. expressing some inner essence of man, I guess) - if you think soul (the music) has soul (the mysterious attribute) that's not a problem of course. Maybe Julio doesn't.''

Music (at its best) is used as a means of self-expression so if we take your attempt at a rationalisation of this concept then any music can potentially have soul.

Yancey- only heard Kick out the jams. I was very disappointed so I didn't try anything else.

Revionism has not clouded my judgement here because it was only upon listening to KOTJ that I realised that they have been overrated. But older stuff like, say, the 2nd velvets album is excellent so revionism has worked for the good in this case.

"Music (at its best) is used as a means of self-expression so if we take your attempt at a rationalisation of this concept then any music can potentially have soul.

Yancey- only heard Kick out the jams. I was very disappointed so I didn't try anything else.

Revionism has not clouded my judgement here because it was only upon listening to KOTJ that I realised that they have been overrated. But older stuff like, say, the 2nd velvets album is excellent so revionism has worked for the good in this case."

I would say that of course any type of music can have soul. And I'm not arguing that the MC5 are bursting with soul (although I think they do), I'm talking about the genre.

All I can say about your dislike of them is that I too was disappointed when I heard Kick Out the Jams. I thought the song was a good straight-ahead rock number, but I thought the rest of the disc was indulgent and dull. But they are my girlfriend's favorite band and she convinced me to spend some time with High Time. That record instantly struck me and it's still the only one that I heavily listen to (although "Let Me Try" from the second disc is an amazing cut). So I would just say that if you ever feeling charitable and wanted to give them one more chance, try High Time rather than KoTJ.

Julio: your opinion on the MC5 will be disregarded by me until you have listened to "Babes in Arms." That is all.

stick with my opinion: i am the only unbiased person on this thread

You're sitting on the fence mark s.