TS: Mark E Smith vs John Lydon

OK, let's do this:

* Attitude to band members.
Lydon always credited all current band members with song credits, Mark E was more random.

* North vs South
don'tcare.

* Best “pop” moment.
"Rise" vs "Hit the North"

* Behaviour in interviews.
Lydon much more willing on a good day, Smith more of a distance merchant.

* Willingness to voice reactionary views.
Mark E = totally reactionary. Lydon less so.

* Mouse on Mars vs Leftfield
Lydon wins

* Career nadirs.
Even the "Cabaret" pil was a good night out. The drunken bad Fall was no fun.

* Match of the Day vs I’m A Celebrity Get Me out Of Here
Oh, look! Lydon can actually talk to people! No matter, the press still had a field day regarding his "unremitting tide of filth" that lasted 0.4 seconds.

* Attractiveness.
In their day? Lydon had a childlike charm for a fair while. Mark E scrubbed up well under Brix's influence, but went rapidly down after.

* Weight.
Don't care.

* Extra curricular activity.
Mark E's solo album is unlistenable. Lydon's "Psycho's Path" is no way as bad as it's been made out to be.

* Consistency.
Lydon's worst was always interesting, still. "Happy?" sounds really bad, but that was more the production/mix, most likely. See above for MES.

* Initial Impact.
Lydon, obv.

* Good bands they’ve inspired.
You doo this.

* Shit bands they’ve inspired.
and this one. Only, the fall have not really inspired that many bad bands that have got anywhere.

* Hex Enduction Hour vs Metal Box
Metal Box please.

Thread inspired by watching that Seven Ages of Rock program and being very disappointed to see J Lydon wheeling out the sane hackneyed stories and opinions again. Smith is similar in many ways but when he was on, I think, The Culture Show a few weeks back he seemed a lot more... unexpected. Then Smith has never been popular or mythologized in the same way Lydon was so I guess that's the big difference there. I was thinking thou that Smith would totally take Lydon down if they had an argument of some sort. If it got physical Lydon would crush Smith though.

Same old hackneyed questions get the same old hackneyed answers.

Would Smith and Lydon face off? Smith has always held Lydon in high regard for being similalrly ornery.

ever read the interview with Mark E, Shane Mcgowan and Nick Cave? if that's anything to go by he'll trife with anyone if it amuses him. there egos's would surely clash.

was thinking thou that Smith would totally take Lydon down if they had an argument of some sort

I doubt that very much. I think Smith would have too much respect for Lydon. I don't know if Lydon would even know who Smith was. You should have added Working Class Hero Status, or else, Impeccably Working Class Credentials to the list.

* Good bands they’ve inspired.

The Fall for one!

i should have added

* History of Domestic Violence

But Lydon's totally loved up, he's virtually the ideal husband!

yeh so he wins that one. it's kind of a point against for smith innit.

What about the missing asterix point:

* Who's best?

But then again, who are we to judge? I mean, who are we?

J.Rotten for me - no contest.

I mean Mark E is fine, the Fall are a terrific band at their best, but c'mon.... the impact of THE SEX PISTOLS, who without Lydon woulda been nowt much, was tremendous. Sure, there's loads of myths and bullshit, but they truly did kick some doors down, and Lydon was the best frontman ever to set foot on a stage, bar none. Great attitude, great lyrics, great delivery - outrageously great!

Given that MES started out sounding exactly like Lydon (see Early Fall collection) it's kinda hard to give him the win on this one.

MES BY A MILE

oh soz is that 1.5 kilometres?

HECK-TARE!!!
HECK-TARE!!!
HECK-TARE!!!

MES wins due to being more hilariously destructive and pathetic. Not that Lydon hasn't done a good job of that but he's actually communicatable to people and might play "Anarchy in the UK" if nicely asked. In any case, Lydon hasn't really been relevant for at least two decades now so ner.

ever read the interview with Mark E, Shane Mcgowan and Nick Cave?

That interview changed my life. Its' the source of the single greatest thing MES ever said: "My attitude is if you can't deliver it like a garage band, fuck it. "

In context: "One thing that really annoys me is that stream of consciousness thing. I wouldn't let on to it normally, but it annoys the shit out of me. I put a lot of hard sweat into them, I think about them. They have an inner logic to me so I don't really care who understands them or not. I see writing and singing as two very different things. My attitude is if you can't deliver it like a garage band, fuck it. That's one thing that's never been explored, delivering complex things in a very straightforward rock'n'roll way. My old excuse is if I'd wanted to be a poet, I'd have been a poet."

Anyways, MES. I'd take Metal Box over any single Fall album, but the Fall have more great output overall, and that's all the counts at the end of the day.

lydon grbt for o, i dunno 6 yrs? quote use (for me) reggiedub krauts intell.rock. pop lftwng/fld rck. intense mythantropt. chosen collabs=move to cynic. then uh oh o nose.

MES grbt fr abt - um - 25 yrs. quote/use: rckabilly/krauts/ tchno/pop/sixties flwr/etc etc.etc etc etc. chsen collabs - bastard. then = STILL

MES still would've happened without the Pistols. There were other role models to be found vocally, and his lyrical process owes nothing at all to Lydon's.

MES is clearly a bigger asshole; I'd rather be pals with Lydon. Especially as I hear he's now into Marine Biology?

But the only PiL record I'd be deeply sad to lose is Metal Box, and I could make do without it. No Fall would be unthinkable. And MES is still batting about .500 for album quiality in the last decade.

MES for the win.

CM: So, do you think The Fall are the best band in the world?
MES: Yeah, I do.
CM: Do you think The Fall have had a very big influence on the music industry?
MES: Yeah.
CM: What's worse, a punk or a hippy?
MES: A punk or a hippy. What's a punk?
You know, I don't know why you're asking me these questions.
CM (voiceover to audience): Oh dear, it's not going too well. Let's try the confrontational route...
Mark, why are you so miserable?
MES: I'm not at all.
CM: Is it an act?
MES: No, I'm a big softy. I'm a very ultra-sensitive person.
CM: What makes you laugh?
MES: Bernard Manning makes me laugh.
CM: Are you being serious about Bernard Manning or are you being amazingly sarcastic?
MES: No, I think he's funny. He can tell jokes, y'know.
CM: Yeah, but I mean his views are absolutely appalling.
MES: Appalling?
CM: Yes, the stance that he takes on women... absolutely appalling.
MES: Well, I haven't noticed.
CM: He's an amazing misogynist.
MES: Is he?
[Clip of Bernard Manning in performance.]
MES: It's good to have a laugh at things like that.
CM: Yes, but don't you thnk there's something more dangerous and insidious than that?
MES: What he's say is laugh it off. If you live in that part of Manchester you never even see a woman. You know, why doesn't Ben Elton tell any racist or sexist jokes?
CM: Because he knows it's a dangerous thing.
MES: No, because he doesn't fucking know any!
CM: I'm sure if he wanted to he could buy a book.
MES: Yeah you tell me something funny Ben Elton said, I'll give you a thousand pounds.
CM (voiceover): Having decided against Big Ben and with ginormous Bernard, Mark E. Smith leaves a huge question mark hanging over his sexual scruples. Time for the big question...
What do you think of pornography then?
MES: I don't like looking, I don't look at women in magazines, it's never done anything for me you know. It's a waste of time, it's very bad for the spirit. It's where you get your serial kilers from, it's these fucking idiots who are pushed sex on the fucking TV all the fucking time, that's fucking pathetic, it's sad. They're all morons from the fucking midlands, like fucking lower middle class idiots. In this country, it's the middle class and the upper class, totally sexually fucked up.
CM: On the one hand you're saying...
MES: One thing to be said for the working class, they're not like, you know, they're not a load of randy bastards.
CM: Do you like sex?
MES: I've fucked more women than you've ever seen. But I don't look at women in magazines. It's a bit... [can't decipher next comment]
I'm sorry, hit me, hit me!
[She does, as Mark cackles away.] (more)

If you live in that part of Manchester you never even see a woman.

This is absolute 24K goldness.

Who's CM, Chris Moyles?

Caitlin Moran

(hee.)

ta.

I don't know if Lydon would even know who Smith was.

There's a quote from Lydon admitting that the Fall were one of the major things that shaped what he wanted to do with PiL. Can't remember where though.

hmmm by the time Metal Box was released The Fall had released Live at the Witch Trials and Dragnet about a month earlier, so it's possible.

I am really surprised that John Lydon has been receiving the favor on this thread. I mean, musically P.I.L. had some alright albums, that I listen to every once in a while. I listen to dozens of Fall albums all of the time. The Sex Pistols are a write off because they're an awful mid tempo hard rock band with a single, overproduced album.

Fall by a landslide.

MES for me too, thanks.

Although the look in Lydon's eyes when he sings in R&R Swindle is pretty classic, the sheer weight of The Fall's many great moments win out.

I think alcohol consumption should be one of the criteria. I mean, there's a reason no one can understand many of the words that come out of MES's mouth, now.

Actually I had a dream about a week ago that I was listening to a solo John Lydon album I really liked a lot. I thought that was weird because I've never heard any of him solo.

I'd pick MES, though. For silly sentimental reasons, I guess. And because we share a zodiac sign. But aside from that I would have a real hard time choosing, to be honest.

I don't know if Lydon would even know who Smith was.

Yeah I agree with Michael Philips' reply to this one: even if such a quote didn't exist (and I have no idea if it does), I daresay Lydon is far more aware of things in the music world than this statement gives him credit for.

MES. Lydon is an actor.

Well! I guess that's one way of putting it. *ah hem*

Look this stuff is really getting inside my brain now. I'm afraid I'll have bad dreams where MES and John Lydon are dueling in my brain and I can't get out of the nightmare. Can't we just call a truce? *deep breath* Whew.

There's a quote from Lydon admitting that the Fall were one of the major things that shaped what he wanted to do with PiL

Eh? Please find that quote! That strikes me as EXTREMELY unlikely! When were Pil formed? 1978? So "Bingo Master's Breakout" shaped PiL? Hmmmmmmmm.

... also, what are the chances of Lydon admitting another (contemporary) band influenced him?

Lydon always credited all current band members with song credits, Mark E was more random.

Was he? I thought MES always credited band members?

xpost -

It is possible to change what you want to do with a band after it formed.

You dare to question who is greatest? What kind of blasphemy is this? MES wins every time :)

xpost to Tom D.

Mark E did often credit co-writers, in a way that made it look like fair reward for additional contributions.

However, many (I think it was Lard/Mark Reilly, at least) claimed he'd add their names to tracksthey had little to do with, and miss them off tracks they had lots to do with. Obviously, this could be parsimony against too many co-credits for a-side tracks, or it may have more to do with giving a band member 10% on any given album for 10% extra contribution overall.

Lydon, however, would credit all full band members each time (not including hired hands, G.Baker for example).

Both methods are within the 'fair' category. Both being much better than Captain Beefheart, obviously.

i did mean more in the sense that smith is rather uh brutal in his treatment of band mates.

mully does the best mark s impression up there. unless it is mark s.

ever read the interview with Mark E, Shane Mcgowan and Nick Cave?

Haha god yes.

Shane: (opinion)
Mark: Har you have no clue mate, you just say what they all say, you should read some books you know, think a bit, read some Nietzsche!

(Total paraphrase from 15 year old memory btw)

linkage to said article! http://www.shanemacgowan.com/articles/nme89.shtml

Grr way to expose my shaky memory acrobat!

Srsly, thanks for link! :)

Haha that whole thing is gold! After arguing that Late Elvis > Early Elvis, Mark immediately throws in "I'm into Merseybeat at the minute - The Searchers. I respect Dylan. The only good thing I've heard of his is that LP he did with George Harrison and Roy Orbison."

I agree with him on the Late Elvis > Early Elvis thing. And most of what he said, actually.

MES in shoulderpads

Fucking hell! Shoulderpads! I'm going to have to pull out my autographed vinyl of that album because of you!

Mark E(lvis) Smith

Best bit of interview:

MES "I can write, boy, I can write. That's what I do. People like you sit around moaning about the state of pop music...The trouble is it's too bloody easy for people, that's why music is in the sorry state it is. Any idiot, actors mainly, can go in there, sing a chord, bang on a machine...I'm not objecting to that but when people get at me for trying to say something in a rock'n'roll mode it's as if I'm a freak."
SM "All this talk about the state of music, rock'n'roll, Irish music, soul, funk."
MES "Salsa."
SM "Its been proved by Acid House that anyone can make a record."
MES "We're not thick, we all know that."
SM "Look, I'm talking about the implications of Acid House"
MES "There's nothing new in Acid House for me, pal. I've been using that process for years. Bloody years. It might be new for you but don't assume it's new for anyone else, because you're fucking wrong, pal.
SM "What the fuck are you talking about ? Have you made an Acid House record ?
MES "It's the same process, right. Have you had some sort of bloody revelation about Acid House ?"
SM "Hah ! It's obvious if you listen they put Eastern melodies over it, bits of this nad that..."
MES "That's what music should always have been like."
SM "It always was."
MES "Why haven't you been doing it for years then pal ?"
NC "I think they have been doing it. I've heard zithers and so on. Eastern stuff and Turkish stuff."
MES "We had jazz arrangements in '82 when the rest of those tossers were playing cocktail lounge music and fucking pseudo new wave, so don't talk to me about it because I know what I'm talking about pal."
SM "Fucking hell, what's he on about ?"

see also Ornette Coleman vs. John Lydon for old skool ilx madness

They should do one of those kinds of 'interview' again.

Get Ricky Wilson, Johnny Borrell, Donny Tourette in a room, and discuss Turkish variations added to Acid house, and see what happens!

worst slash premise ever

There's a quote from Lydon admitting that the Fall were one of the major things that shaped what he wanted to do with PiL

Eh? Please find that quote! That strikes me as EXTREMELY unlikely! When were Pil formed? 1978? So "Bingo Master's Breakout" shaped PiL? Hmmmmmmmm.

-- Tom D., Saturday, June 9, 2007 10:20 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark Link

Not Lydon himself, but...

Live at the Witch Trials [I.R.S., 1979]
After dismissing this as just too tuneless and crude--wasn't even fast--I played it in tandem with Public Image Ltd. one night and for a few bars could hardly tell the difference. Of course, in this case the heavy bass and distant guitars could simply mean a bad mix, but what the hell--when they praise spastics and "the r&r dream" they're not being sarcastic (I don't think), and in this icky pop moment we could use some ugly rebellion. How about calling it punk? B+

Christgau, not lydon.

Definitely Lydon! Mark E Smith is just a pathetic, shy alcoholic who acts weird to get the attention! He never faced razors from NF losers in the street for debunking the monarchy, Smith just goes "Eh oop, ah thought George Formby were avant garde, he were a proper drinker, not like these Channel 4 pseuds with their prawn vodka, all me pals are out of prison" and hundreds of writers pee themselves with delight.

Sex Pistols =-real. Fall = for people too scared of the real, but wanted a cosey imitation with zero commitment.

Were you going for a world record for highest number of ludicrous assertions in one paragraph there?

Ha ha, Fall fans get very angry if their fuhrer is scrutinized!

You were more insulting to the Pistols.

Sex Pistols were also sexy music, the Fall rubbish to make love to

"* Mouse on Mars vs Leftfield
Lydon wins"

?!?!?!?!

Yes, "Open Up" was super, a very class track that is still loved and gets dancefloors moving today. Mouse on Mars and Mark E - who really listens to it, apart from some Observer Music Monthly writer who wants to be James Murphy?

"Yes, "Open Up" was super, a very class track that is still loved and gets dancefloors moving today."

On Fantasy Island maybe.

Anyway I thought the issue was Leftfield > Mouse On Mars, which is pure nonsense. I'll take virtually anything Mouse On Mars has done over Leftfield.

What - even the brilliant "Afro Left"?

EVEN!

That's one of the things that bugs me about shy people, the way they're always trying to get attention

Because if he didn't act weird nobody would have noticed his band!

Haha unlike the Sex Pistols.

But the Sex Pistols did not act weird, they were against the system and the boring old farts of prog rock, the church, England etc - very sensible in fact

Yeah John Lydon was really against the boring old farts of prog rock what with Van Der Graaf Generator and Can worship.

NC "The last tour, going on stage was a release."
MES "Sexually ?"
NC "As my life gets more constipated and cramped going on stage I'm able to purge myself in some way."
MES "A bowel release."
NC "I feel more relaxed."
MES "With Mick Harvey behnd you with the vaseline."

you never listen to what I say / you only saw me for the clothes I wear
vs.
you are a walking tower of Adidas crap