The Twelfth P&J Albums (and EPs) Poll!

THE YEAR NEW POP BROKE (while indie rock slinked off into a corner)

one of the best years for singles in my lifetime alongside 66 & 72

lotsa albums here I loved & haven't heard for years -- gotta give it up for Love Wars and Love Tractor, Ruben Blades and LKJ.

But I just might vote for the Smiths.

Hüsker Dü easy.

What a great year for music. Went with "Let it Be," but there's LOTS more to love about 1984.

The Replacements: Let It Be (Twin/Tone)
Hüsker Dü: Zen Arcade (SST)
Minutemen: Double Nickels on the Dime (SST)
Meat Puppets: Meat Puppets II (SST)

4 of my fave albums ever right there. and a couple of decent 80s pfunk albums.

agreed ^^ the golden age of SST occurred alongside MTV's golden age

Oh and that's my favourite Smiths album too.

and my 2nd fave U2 album. 1984 was the year I started secondary school. If only I had been into music then, what a great year it would've been to get into music.

A tight one between Replacements, Cyndi, and Run-DMC. Hmmm... probably Cyndi (though mostly for side one).

Lotsa stuff towards the bottom I don't know the first thing about, but I assume those are the EPs. Here's the two albums I'm clueless about that kind of intrigue me:

The Gospel at Colonus
The Everly Brothers: EB 84

Was the Everlys album a big album? I don't remember anything at all about that.

Double Nickels. But there are at least five other records on that list that are better than anything that came out in 1983, and '85.

one of the best years for singles in my lifetime alongside 66 & 72

OTMFM, whatta year! (Well, '66 wasn't part of my personal lifetime, but the rest is right.) And a fine year for LPs too, even tho there's not a lot of overlap between my favourite singles and LPs. (Huge exceptions: Prince, Cyndi Lauper and Van Halen.) Ultimately, for lasting greatness (talking THOUSANDS of playings), nothing can touch that SST troika, from which I'll single out Zen Arcade. My own personal introduction to a whole new world, among other things.

meanwhile, prince is crying cuz nobody has mentioned him yet. what the hell?

prince mention x-post

i would go for either prince or husker du. they both rock really hard.

xpost - Scott, "On The Wings Of A Nightingale" (from EB'84) got a pretty fair amount of fledgling MuchMusic airplay during late '84/early '85. Dunno how much radio airplay it got, however. It's a nice midtempo acoustically strummed and harmonized number.

[30 seconds of research later:] Chrissakes, "Nightingale" is a McCartney song! If I ever knew that, I'd totally forgotten.

Run-D.M.C. said it best: "Our DJ's better than all these bands. HUH!"

Scott, Here's the description of GSC from the wiki site:

"The Gospel at Colonus" is a gospel version of Sophocles's tragedy, Oedipus at Colonus. The show was created in New York in 1985 by Lee Breuer, the experimental-theatre director, and composer Bob Telson. Breuer and Telson hand over the storytelling duties to a black Pentecostal preacher and the parishioners of his church, who in turn translate the story of Oedipus's torment and redemption into a Christian parable. A television version starred Morgan Freeman as the preacher.

1985? That can't be right.

eh. not much which stirs me here. purple rain, boringly.

What the hell, I'll go for Prince. Second place: probably Making History. (Would have probably picked Bruce or the Ramones back then, though.)

Don't you like Cyndie Lauper, lex?

not enough to own any album by her.

That's too bad.

Smiths over Prince and Minutemen by a smidge.

Oh, that Let's Active disc is great too.

Lex, I share your sentiments here overall, but you're missing out on that first Lauper LP.

Wow, that Gospel at Colonus album... which critics voted for that, I wonder? More of an "art" thing than a "gospel" thing, perhaps?

Crap year.

voted for U2 - The Unforgettable Fire cause it's a fantastic album (in my mind, their career best) and while there are better albums on this list, i felt it deserved a vote as it's not been mentioned, really, in comments yet :(

...my honest vote would be Huskers or Smiths, mind.

Very easy: Born in the U.S.A. (publics and critics in alignment non-shockah), followed by Let It Be. The Lou Reed is his second best solo album and would probably be in my top ten.

I definitely prefer the singles to the album list though.

As for She's So Unusuaul: I used to think it was a one-side marvel, but flip it over and you got "She Bop," "All Through The Night," and "I'll Kiss You," so I'd give it an A or A-.

Yeah, I agree, right after I posted that thing about side one, I realized I was just mouthing a cliché, and thinking about what is actually ON side two, I suddenly really want to hear it.

The Run-DMC album is probably the best one on the list, but I'm going to vote for Womack and Womack's all-time great marriage album, in part because I don't think anybody else will. I'd rate Van Halen third, and would possibly rate ZZ Top above Springteen, Lauper, Prince, Pretenders, Ramones, the three SST records, or the Replacements (all of which I like, but none of which I can honestly say I love anymore.) All in all, I'd say it's probably the least exciting Pazz & Jop list of the '80s so far (though yeah, the singles list will be great.)

The EP list looks surprisingly dull to me, though Jason and the Scorchers hold up, and the Judds and Art of Noise probably did anything better, and Charlie Pickett and the Leroix Bros might be fun if I ever heard them.

Funniest thing about the album list: Both Del Lords and Del Fuegos! (Were either of them any good? I honestly have no recollection of what either sounded like, though I think I prefered Del Lords at the time.)

Is "Baby I'm Scared of You" on that W&W album? God, that song is brilliant (and one more addition to my 120+ list of great songs from '84).

yep, that's on there. (Though their Radio M.U.S.C. Man album is also great, by the way.)

And I meant the Judds and Art of Noise probably NEVER did anything better (than those EPs).

What stands out for me is the massively high placing of the dB's album -- even at the time, a lot of people tried really hard to convince me that it was a really bad record compared to the first two. (To no avail.)

Everyone talking crap about this year, just wait till later in the decade. I'll probably vote for Run-D.M.C. but I'm having a ball figuring out if that's where I'm going. George Clinton killin' it again! Tom Verlaine showing he could have been a great solo artist! Prince as metal god!
Bangles just being themselves! And that Rickie Lee Jones album actually resonated pretty highly with me when I rediscovered it two years later.

I'd like to hear the Verlaine album ("O Foolish Heart" is lovely) but it's out of print. The Bangles album is good to great.

Sonic Death

Haha Alf, my old cassette (bought at my college co-op with money from my library "job") still going strong after 23 years. "Traveling" is ass-kickery of a very high degree, "Five Miles of You" has some stinging guitar work, etc. I called into another college's radio station and requested "O Foolish Heart" because I was almost-dating one of the deejays; she not only didn't play it, it was pretty much the death-knell of our "relationship." OH CRAPZ.

Double Nickles by a lot.

and yeah Double Nickels and yeah Zen Arcade and yeah Butt in the U.S.A. and yeah a whole bunch of other records here are great. I saw Del Fuegos live in 1984, they were hilarious in concert.

Possibly the most amusing line from xgau's essay:

...and give thanks that neither Madonna album snuck into the top 100.

First album definitely deserved a place on that list, though.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Run-D.M.C. I love lots of those records, but few of them feel as fresh to me anymore (tho LKJ, Ramones, sometimes Prince do).

Xhuxk, so funny to see you praise the Scorchers. I remember your Creem takedown of that '86 album (Still Standing?) where you called them disco.

That was one hell of a crummy album, tho.

Double Nickels then, Double Nickels now, though Madonna should have at least placed, if it counts. Lots of records here I haven't heard, though:

The Lou Reed, Ramones, dB's, Womack & Womack, Ruben Blades, Neville Brothers, Tom Verlaine, Linton Kwesi Johnson, George Clinton, The Gospel at Colonus, Lyres, Everly Brothers, Rickie Lee Jones, Captain Beefheart, Judds, LeRoix Brothers, Julie Brown, Charlie Pickett, Salem 66.

Prince, no contest at all. The singles list is fucking bananas.

Had I been in my twenties in 1984 I'd have voted for Purple Rain, but Christgau was OTM about its weaknesses (and wrong about 1999).

I voted for The Bangles cuz that's what I wanted to do at this exact nanosecond. It's fascinating, though - many of these records share an earnestness that seems unprecedented in these polls. In this way, Springsteen holds hands with Los Lobos, The Replacements, The Pretenders, Run-DMC, Ruben Blades, and the SST troika. There's a sense in this music that that deep in the heart of Reagan, we can change it all for the good. So I think it's telling that I want to retreat into a band that didn't write most of their best songs and might even have been reactionary in their propensity for constantly looking back. Maybe it's a Gen X mistrust of direct expression fueling this. Or maybe The Bangles yearned for change in a way foreign to the (hint: male) artists listed above as Rob Sheffiled suggests in his appreciation of the word "oh" wedged into a T. S. Eliot quote on the Hoffs-Peterson penned "Dover Beach." See p. 29 of Spin Alternative Record Guide.

Xhuxk, so funny to see you praise the Scorchers. I remember your Creem takedown of that '86 album (Still Standing?) where you called them disco.

But I like disco now! And actually I never stopped liking the Scorchers' first EP, though I did get rid of it for a decade or so. The copy I bought for $1 a year or two ago sounded good though! (And they even do a song that says "boy yourself a POPsicle take you to a DISco" or something in that neighborhood.)

Nobody has mentioned yet, so I might as well, the absolutely insane and retarded lack of hard rock/ heavy metal in '80s P&Js so far. No Def Leppard, no "Round and Round," no Motorhead, no "You Shook Me All Night Long" for crissakes, no nothing -- except, well, Van Halen and ZZ Top up above, who I don't think ever did this well before or since. And those are just the obvious examples. For most critics, it didn't exist. And sorry, there was at least as much good hard rock as British haircut synth-pop in the early '80s (and enough to give hip-hop and r&b and indie etc etc etc a run for their money.) (I won't even mention the lack of country. But at least John Waite made the '84 singles poll, so I'll stop now.)

And I guess Joan Jett finished once. Which is great, but I'm pretty sure people considered her punk rock at the time. (Aerosmith and Lynyrd Skynyrd and Black Sabbath never finished in the '70s, either. Etc.)

The NME lists are even worse for lack of hard rock/heavy metal.

maybe The Bangles yearned for change in a way foreign to the (hint: male) artists listed above

But women did really good in the '84 poll, compared to most years, didn't they? I was thinking about this earlier today -- Tina Turner (who I am hereby the first person to mention, which is sad even if that album was ridiculously overrated at the time), Chrissie Hynde, Cyndi Lauper, Laurie Anderson, Rickie Lee Jones, the Judds, Judie Brown...okay, maybe not. (I'm not sure I get how the Bangles were less earnest than Run DMC either, but what the hey. I mean, I liked their album, but in 1984 they were still Paisley Undergouders yearning for mid '60s garages, not pop stars yet. Closest band to them up above, in an aesthetic sense, might be the Lyres.)

Not a single one listed in 1984 NME/Melody Maker/The Face Albums Of 1984 POLL

x-post

no Motorhead

Oh right! I'd vote for No Remorse this year over anything else. Gawd, what a band!

I'm not sure I get how the Bangles were less earnest than Run DMC either, but what the hey

Well, I did wrestle with this a bit above.

So I think it's telling that I want to retreat into a band that didn't write most of their best songs and might even have been reactionary in their propensity for constantly looking back. Maybe it's a Gen X mistrust of direct expression fueling this. Or maybe The Bangles yearned for change in a way foreign to the (hint: male) artists listed above as Rob Sheffiled suggests in his appreciation of the word "oh" wedged into a T. S. Eliot quote on the Hoffs-Peterson penned "Dover Beach." See p. 29 of Spin Alternative Record Guide.

This is one of the best things I've read about them! I don't get the meme that they're so "retro"; Susannah Hoffs seems as knowing as smart as Chrissie Hynde did in 1984. That "oh" in "Dover Beach" is the kind of offhand gesture that Hynde herself was no longer capable of. Also, they're several songs as good as "Hero Takes a Fall" and "Going Down to Liverpool" ("Dover Beach" you mentioned, but also "Live" and "James," among others)

I may have overstated the '60s garage thing, come to think of it (though that's the scene they came out of.) So maybe they were closer to the dBs, just 100 times as good. Those are really good songs Alfred named. (Which still isn't to say I get the less-earnest-than-Run-DMC thing. And also, weren't they still writing most of their own songs at this point? Though I guess "Going Down To Liverpool" -- still my favorite -- was by Kimberley Rew, right?) (So: A Soft Boys song? The Soft Boys were retro, right?) (Really, I guess the Bangles were sonically betwixt the Pretenders and Salem 66, more or less.)

Also, between the Judds and Jason & the Scorchers, I guess country did do okay in the EP poll. Sort of.

They were still writing their songs on Different Light, only they weren't the hits, but they complemented them in all kinds of weird ways (like how the title track follows "Manic Monday" -- this declaration of Vicki Peterson lust fueld by wah-wah).

Xgau's EP list (I bought a Persian Gulf record once, and I still have no idea what they sounded like.) Thought the Anna Domino EP I heard once was pretty dull. Never heard the BBC or Wind or Pat Wilson. I think African Connexion might be a compilation.):

Persian Gulf: Changing the Weather (Raven)
Anna Domino: East and West (Les Disques de Crépuscle import)
The Judds: Wynonna & Naomi (RCA)
Julie Brown: Goddess in Progress (Rhino)
Butthole Surfers: Live Pcppep (Alternative Tentacles)
Oh-OK: Furthermore What (DB)
Pat Wilson: Bop Girl (Warner Bros.)
African Connexion (Oval import)
The BBC: Dutch (Emotional)
Wind: Guest of the Staphs (Cheft)

It's so tough to vote against Purple Rain, but I'd be lying if I said that Minutemen didn't make my favorite album of that year

Jesus, 1984 was a pretty incredible year. between Replacements, Boss, Prince, Du, Run DMC, etc., there are way too many albums on that list that are still great

Shit, even VH made a pretty great album that year.

At the time there would have been no hesitation it would have been The Smiths followed by R.E.M. and Talking Heads - but at the time I hadn't heard Double Nickles On The Dime. The inclusion of an E.P. which consisted of 2 1965 Beefheart singles and an outtake is just messing with my mind.

Where are Ocean Rain, Treasure, Welcome To The Pleasure Dome, From Her To Eternity, A Walk Across The Rooftops, Diamond Life, It'll End In Tears, Brewing Up With Billy Bragg, Climate Of The Hunter, Eden, Cafe Bleu, The Wonderful & Frightening World Of The Fall, I Often Dream Of Trains, Fried, Some Great Reward...? Did none of those make it over the pond?

Most of them weren't good enough?

More Anglophile votes a year later, it looks like.

It is kind of weird, though, that the Fall have never once placed in P&J. Not exactly surprising, though -- no more suprising than Motorhead, anyway.

In fairness, though, the America-firstness of the list above does seem somewhat single-minded, compared to most years. It's not like the Lyres or Del Feugos or Del Lords of dBs are any less nonentities in retrospect than most of the Brits named two posts ago. Frankie Goes To Hollywood should have blown them all out of the water, really.

And actually, Xgau's essay addresses this issue:

as a matter of local loyalty and revealed truth Pazz & Joppers have favored American artists throughout the '80s, and I don't see that changing in the short term. Anglophilia did make a comeback with the voters in the wake of the widely rumored British Invasion of 1983. Yet though every winning act except for the Police and Malcolm McLaren (whose 23rd-ranked single didn't spin off an album until mid-December) was back on the racks in 1984, only U2 (who aren't English and fell from sixth to 29th) repeated, joined by romantic tyros the Smiths and artists of colour Special AKA and Linton Kwesi Johnson. (If the Pretenders are British, Tina Turner's white.) Of the others, the Eurythmics (tied for 43rd), Elvis Costello (70th!--lowest previous finish 11), and Big Country (also not English and down from 15 to 92) made top 100. Richard Thompson and Culture Club were lower, Aztec Camera was much lower, and David Bowie justified my steadfast faith in rock criticism by garnering not a single mention. Other Brit bands were heard from, of course--watch out for Bronski Beat, the Waterboys, perhaps Sade, perhaps the The--and a few young Americans also got their comeuppance (Violent Femmes 85th heh heh, Dream Syndicate 94th). But on the (American) trade charts and the (American) critical charts both, this was an American year.

I'll try not to prattle on too much about how rock and roll nationalism connects up with the easy-going monster who sits atop the American hegemony to end all American hegemonies. But I will surmise that the affection of the American record-buyer for Bruce and Prince (and Madonna and Motley Crue) has something in common with the affection of the American voter for Ronald Reagan, that the common element may not be all bad, and that as always those who crave progressive change might well pay closer attention.

"Most of them weren't good enough?"

Compared with some of what actually did make the list???

the affection of the American record-buyer for Bruce and Prince (and Madonna and Motley Crue) has something in common with the affection of the American voter for Ronald Reagan, that the common element may not be all bad, and that as always those who crave progressive change might well pay closer attention

can't parse this at all. is he saying buyers affection for bruce & prince & madonna & the crue stems from some reactionary impulse?

Seemingly. Some nationalist impulse, at least. (For evidence, see that 1983 X song about British disco synthesizer night school music, or the 1986 Dire Straits song about Brits with earrings banging on bongos like chimpanzees.) But anyway, I took him out of context; the entire essay is at the link above (though I'm not going to pretend he necessarily argues the point so I fully understand it, either.).

"Most of them weren't good enough?"

Compared with some of what actually did make the list???

Sometimes, probably. But see my previous post.

Oh wait, Dire Straits were Brits, too! They just didn't seem like it! So never mind them, duh.

At any rate, there definitely were a lot of dumb articles written back then about "the return of American rock after all that foofy British MTV stuff where boys dress up like girls" (often revolved around the three good SST bands and Replacements above, but with mediocre nonentities tossed in too.)

"I will surmise that the affection of the American record-buyer for Bruce and Prince (and Madonna and Motley Crue) has something in common with the affection of the American voter for Ronald Reagan...."

Hmmm. I wonder which UK acts might be considered to have sold substantial quantities of records and received major amounts odf positive critical acclaim around that time because of an affection that their fanbase shared with the acts in question and Maggie Thatcher?

I'd like to think that in the UK in 1984 (Maggie having just been swept back into power on a wave of belligerent jingoism in the wake of the Falklands fiasco; the start of the miners' strike etc.) more record sales were being generated through disaffection with her than otherwise - at least amongst those who who read and contributed to whatever our equivalent to Pazz & Jop / Village Voice might have been (NME Year End poll maybe?).

"is he saying buyers affection for bruce & prince & madonna & the crue stems from some reactionary impulse?"

I took this (probably entirely wrongly!) as meaning that he believed that these affections stemmed from what was ultimately a conservative impulse.

Hmmm. I wonder which UK acts might be considered to have sold substantial quantities of records and received major amounts odf positive critical acclaim around that time because of an affection that their fanbase shared with the acts in question and Maggie Thatcher?

Paul Young.

Wham!? (Actually, I have no idea.)

I guess, though, that I don't see how all those jangly Brits like the Waterboys and U2 and Big Country and Echo + Bunnymen were all that more forward-thinking musically than some of the similarly comfort-foody, vaguely garagey guitar bar bands American critics were settling for. If that's what Brit critics were liking (which it may or may not have been - I haven't checked), maybe critics on both sides of the pond were back-peddling a little, somehow? (And if the Fall don't really fit into that equation, neither do the Minutemen, obviously.)

(Though being American, I've never been able to make much sense of the Fall's politics. I bet Mark E. Smith would have been more likely to defend Thatcher before D. Boon would have defended Reagan, though.)

"Wham!"

"Hey everybody take a look at me,
I've got street credibility,
I may not have a job,
But I have a good time,
With the boys that I meet down on the line"

LOL: Just now as I was reading of the relative throwbackwards-ness of various U.S. and British acts, the TV featured The La's "There She Goes" in a womens' lingerie advert. But we won't get to them until later in the decade...

in the states there was a critical divide between the indie rock retro bands xuxhk mentions and the new pop imports. pretty much all the critics like retro-rockers while the new pop audience was largely teenagers absorbing MTV. and I think this did stem from a conservative impulse -- the favored putdown was "haircut band" well second place after "limey fags" -- although the most xenophobic u.s. rock bands were anti-reagan and xgau regularly decried duran duran as thatcherite.

initmations up thread of an even more hotly contested and controversial critics battle raging in 1984: the great madonna VS cyndi lauper debate. incredibly ms. lauper was the intellectuals' fave, like her peers sonic youth madonna was lashed to the P&J whipping post for several years before becoming a critical fave. strange but true.

Yeah, I recall just how much most critics loathed Madonna--and how much Lauper was used as the stick with which to beat Madonna--at least until Like a Prayer. I think the only at-the-time well known critic to offer some praise early on was Dave Marsh.

though Marsh also wrote columns dismissing UK new pop--I guess he thought Madonna was ok because she was American.

The Madonna-Cyndi war began to wane when True Colors turned out to be not as good or "culturally relevant" as True Blue.

Probably, but it still took some time for the critics to come around to Madonna...I don't think many critics cared much for True Blue. Madonna in her first few years, may have inspired more bad writing, by the way, than just about anyone. It went from "she is evil wearing boy toy belt buckles" to "she is female empowerment personified." Both stances made me want to hammer nails into my eyes.

rusty nails, I mean.

I seem to remember Madonna taking heat from libs and conservatives when "Papa Don't Preach" was released.

OK, assuming that "Brits with earrings banging on bongos like chimpanzees" must be a reference to that brief but memorable period when your Granny was percussionist with The Fall, then at a stretch I can just about see how at least one if not more of the epithets "British disco synthesizer night school music"; "foofy British MTV stuff where boys dress up like girls"; "haircut band"; or if all else fails then at least "limey fags" might be applied to the purveyors of most of the albums I identified as missing from the list: but what about (Aussie) Nick Cave and (US-born( Scott Walker?

Stewart calm down, most of this stuff is quotes from bands like X or Dire Straits attempts to parse what some misguided US people were thinking, not actual real-live today-type insults.

xpost: Madonna always had some love from the critics though, mostly because *she wrote some of her own songs man* but also because Her Shit Was Unimpeachable.

Also, no one in the US cared about Nick Cave or Scott Walker until it was cool to do so in the 1990s. Many of us are still not that cool.

"Stewart calm down"

Oh I'm perfectly calm I assure you, sorry if it came across otherwise, must be my strange Limey soh.

xp: They were extremely marginal cult artitsts, at least as far as American critics (assuming the critics had ever even heard of them) were concerned (just like they are now, except way more so -- In fact, I honestly can't remember any significant number of critics caring about Scott Walker until the mid '00s, or thereabouts.)

And I say all that as somebody who liked the Birthday Party at the time, by the way. Who again, rightly or wrongly, got no real critical support in the U.S. at all.

Brits with earrings banging on bongos like chimpanzees

I always took this to be about Haircut 100, for some reason. Not sure where I got that idea, though. (The "Love Plus One" video, maybe?)

Do you think critics in the UK and critics in the US actually had (or believed themselves to have) significantly different job descriptions?

e.g. might it be fair to say that UK critics were more concerned with making themselves appear more hip by continually finding new and obscure acts to introduce to their their readerships, whereas US critics were more concerned with reflecting the taste of their readers rather than attempting to direct it?

What was coverage of New Pop like in England? I got an idea in Simon's book.

Depends on exactly what you're defining as "New Pop" - there were certainly any number of very different publications reporting on different types of popular music in very different ways for very different audiences - and taking themselves, their readerships, the acts they championed quite substantially more or less seriously in the process - all of which would probably have worked a lot better if the reality hadn't been that bands and songs regularly crossed, re-crossed, straddled and refused to fit neatly between any imaginary lines of demarcation.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Where are Ocean Rain, Treasure, Welcome To The Pleasure Dome, From Her To Eternity, A Walk Across The Rooftops, Diamond Life, It'll End In Tears, Brewing Up With Billy Bragg, Climate Of The Hunter, Eden, Cafe Bleu, The Wonderful & Frightening World Of The Fall, I Often Dream Of Trains, Fried, Some Great Reward...? Did none of those make it over the pond?

Most of them seem to be in NME/Melody Maker/The Face Albums Of 1984 POLL

Meat Puppets II got 0 votes :( But the top 3 are all good.

I could be wrong, but I don't get the sense that the Fall made a big impact in the American underground until "Cruiser's Creek" in '85. They spent '84 touring Europe. I didn't hear Wonderful and Frightening World of the Fall until the '90s, and love it now...

Wow, did not predict Zen Arcade placing so high. I thought the Replacements would've been swapped.

The only place I remember bigging up TWaFWotF in 1984 was the New York Times, where it made the best-of list. That's how I learned about it, anyway.

100 or so xposts:

Chuck, I like Fervor too! Love it, even. It's sad, though; they peaked with that EP.

Peaking with debut EPs is surprisingly common, actually. But yeah, they're one of the poster boys.