TS: Wonderwall vs Bittersweet Symphony

I agree with everything you just said, except "Wonderwall".

Agreed. Wonderwall is at least an original song, not just some fucking hatchet-faced charleton spouting pseudo-profound tuneless drivel over an old Stones riff.

nb I have no problem with artists appropriating old bits of music as long as they do something halfway interesting with them.

xpost

'charlatan', rather.

probably bittersweet symphony. it's got a bit more oomph and the riff is genius. i remember loving it when it came out. close though.

Agreed. Wonderwall "Bittersweet Symphony" is at least an original song, not just some fucking hatchet-faced charleton spouting pseudo-profound tuneless drivel over an old Stones Beatles riff.

I've been listening to "The Last Time" since I was six, and I was gobsmacked when I read that Richard Ashcroft had appropriated an "orchestral" version. I just don't hear it, and even if I did I don't give a shit.

I hate that Verve shit. And the video with asshole walking down the street knocking into people. I PUNCH

Other words, chap OTM.

i hate videos where the singer is solemnly walking down the street, it's like video shorthand for "I R INTROSPECTIVE THIS IS INTROSPECTIVE SONG"

You MTV babies.

I've never understood the Oasis = Beatles ripoffs meme. Listening to them I occasionally pick up on something Beatle-esque but I doubt I would have come up with it myself had I not been told it by so many people. If I had to compare them with any 60s band it would be the Kinks, but even then I'd be hard-pressed to pick many tangible examples.

I just think they sucked.

not that the goddamn Verve were much better, but at least they came up with another song I halfway care about ("The Drugs Don't Work").

've never understood the Oasis = Beatles ripoffs meme

MEME? They're practically a tribute band! And I say this as someone who actually mildly likes maybe three or four of their songs, which makes me possibly their biggest stateside fan.

Alfred OTM, except that he meant "Lucky Man".

I always hated Wonderwall. Never understood the love for it.

Bittersweet Symphony

But dude, they totally ripped off the Stones. Read the Wikipedia entry. I couldn't copy and paste for some reason.

I do not care whether The Verve ripped anyone off. The song itself revolves around a great riff, and is convincingly rendered. McCabe's background guitar squalls alone win it for The Verve, limited as they are compared to his contributions on earlier records. I'm judging each song entirely on their own musical merits, without petty concerns such as plagiarism occluding my judgement. Wonderwall is kinda sucky.

Incidentally, "Lucky Man" is absolutely stone-cold great for about a minute, then becomes a bit rubbish once Ashcroft opens that maw of his.

But Wonderwall did not blatantly rip off a song from 1965! The choice is clear, and if this thread was a poll, I think we'd see Wonderwall on top.

Anyone who thinks Bittersweet Symphony is not a ridiculous rip-off has simply never heard the original song which was ripped off (not the Stones version by the way). They share 99% of their DNA.

Bittersweet Symphony. No fucking contest.

Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn8MxicsFAw

I don't care about blatantly ripping-off. Bittersweet Symphony SOUNDS a zillion times better than the 'source material'. There's no problem with what they did as far as I can see. It's not a GREAT song, but it's perfectly good. Everything's link demonstrates how similar they are; think of it then as a cover version that improves upon the original tenfold.

Plus, for all we know, Wonderwall did just that (1965 thievery). I would SO love it if someone could provide an apposite example.

I dont really care at all for either of these songs. First Verve album is nice though.

I don't believe we're arguing about/for auteurism in 2007.

explain plz (I take it this has something to do with my not caring overmuch about plagiarism)

(incidentally, I do care about plagiarism if it springs to mind automatically and reduces my enjoyment of a certain piece.)

You got it right! I don't give a fuck who ripped what off. "Bittersweet Symphony" sounded great even if without that sample it's at heart an Alcoholics Anonymous affirmation.

I have a feeling that all those who go out of their way to actively hate on BS do so out of musical peer pressure.

(Southall bait)

"Bittersweet Symphony" is a somewhat poor tune with, as others have pointed out, a great fucking riff. "Wonderwall" is a somewhat poor tune without a great fucking riff and with fucking Noel Gallagher singing it.

I'm almost positive Liam sang it! I don't think Noel sang anything back them.

Although that's hardly going to change your opinion of the song.

No, it's not. Forgive my not knowing much about Oasis. I thought Noel was the singer.

despite all the things i said about "wonderwall" on that other thread, i'd definitely go with the verve track here. it just holds up as a more novel pop thing, or something.

After losing the composer credits to the song, Richard Ashcroft commented, "This is the best song (Mick) Jagger and (Keith) Richards have written in 20 years."

This has turned out to be a far greater thread than I would have imagined.

UHHHHH

Duh! C'mon guys:
"This is probably the best song ever written and here's the best singer in the world, Mr. Richard Ashcroft..."

I don't believe we're arguing about/for auteurism in 2007

Fair enough. I think Wonderwall is best though. It's just a simple song that sounds good round campfires etc. Bittersweet Symphony thinks the sun shines out of it's arse. Bono could have written it.

both feature 90s wankers feeding off the dessicated corpse of the 60s - no thanks

Anyway, "Standing Outside a Broken Phone Booth with Money in My Hand" pwns both.

roger dangerously close to being OTM!

doo doo-doo doo doo-doo doo

Now there was a band that had the grace to realize their one hit wonder status.

They didn't have the English to keep 'em going.

Bittersweet Symphony by about a million billion times. It seemed stupid at the time, but a few years ago a friend of mine said to me that "Bittersweet Symphony" was a perfect song. I asked how that could be, and she asked me if I would change anything about it if I could, and then I got what she meant.

also Oasis kind of sucks, right?

And also, latebloomer: no way is Ashcroft "solemn" in that video! He's sneery and Manc-arrogant (yeah, Wigan is Grtr M/cr) and posturing, but as far from solemn as you can get.

So I'd go with "Bittersweet Symphony" over "Wonderwall", even though it isn't a fair fight.

I asked how that could be, and she asked me if I would change anything about it if I could, and then I got what she meant.

DESTROY MASTER TAPE AND ALL COPIES, PULP ALLEN KLEIN'S ROYALTIES, FEED TO BEARS

= CHANGE

I don't think I can stand any of the singles from that Verve album now. "Sonnet" perhaps? But there's something so annoying but the chorus even on that. In my memory the psychedelic whimsy bits on that album are still nice - "The Rolling People", "Catching the Butterfly" etc. - but my memory might be lying. The first Verve album is awesome though I'm sorry Puffy but you know this.

TS: The Verve's "Bittersweet Symphony" vs Train's "Drops of Jupiter"

Something annoying about the chorus on that I mean.

I'm not saying it's a 'good and promising thing', Alex; I'm saying it's a more interesting ontology for that song than Noel Gallagher sitting down with a guitar in a hotel room is for Wonderwall. wtf are you even doing on this thread?!

I remember 'Sambuca' being good.

On July 30, 1997, Boys Don't Cry members Nick Richards and Brian Chatton sued Paula Cole, Warner Brothers Records, and Imago Records for $7 million in the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California, claiming that Cole's remix "Where have all the Cowboys Gone?" used the phrase "I wanna be a cowboy" 24 times in the same style and syntax as their song and constituted copyright infringement.

Sambuca > Where Have All The Cowboys Gone > Wonderwall > BSS

Wonderwall probably > I Wanna Be A Cowboy, though.

do you like the song from the kevin and perry film?

No.

""Sambuca" by The Wideboys ft Dennis G"

i hope you guys are talking about the original 2-step version (and preferably the bass-driven dub) rather than the awful shiny house version that was ultimately released.

I don't like "Me Julie", either xp

i meant the rocafeller skank

There's a fair amount of guitar at the end of "BSS."

Bitter Sweet Symphony (it's three words, people) > Rockafeller Skank

'rockerfeller skank' is awesome.

If you've never heard The Fall.

i lied. no fat boy slim on the ost. it felt like there was though.

Disc: 1
1. Big girl - Precocious Brats feat. Kevin & Perry
2. Kid 2000 - Hybrid feat. Chrissie Hynde
3. I'm in the mood for love - Jools Holland and his Rhythm and Blues Orchestra feat. Jamiroquai
4. Ooh la la - Wiseguys
5. Love island (4/4 mix) - Fatboy Slim
6. Straight to hell - The Clash
7. King of snake (Straight mate mix) - Underworld
8. Another day (Perfecto dub) - Skip Raiders feat. Jada
9. Mystery land (Sickboy courtyard mix) - Y-Traxx
10. Ayla (DJ Taucher mix) - Ayla
11. Crazy Ivan - Vervlads
12. Chicago - Groove Armada
13. The look of love - Gladys Knight
14. Ethnic majority - Nightmares on Wax
15. F**k dub - Tosca
16. Emotion/Sweet Harry - Nightmares on Wax
17. Mi amor - Phil Pope and Los Lidos
18. The Partee - Roger Sanchez
19. Follow me - Lange feat. The Morrighan
20. Eyeball - Sunburst
21. Luvstruck - Southside Spinners

Disc: 2
1. Don't give up - Chicane feat. Bryan Adams
2. Must be the music - Joey Negro feat. Taka Boom
3. Get get down - Paul Johnson
4. Needin' U - David Morales presents The Face
5. Horny - Mousse T vs Hot `n' Juicy
6. Get wicked - Perfect Phase presents Those 2
7. Dreaming - Ruff Driverz presents Arrola
8. Sound of bamboo - Flickman
9. I feel love (R.A.F. zone mix) - CRW
10. Sunshine - Yomanda
11. Lizard (Claxxix mix) - Mauro Picotto
12. Coming on strong - Signum feat. Scott Mac
13. A9 - Ariel
14. Toca's miracle - Fragma
15. Toca me (In petto mix) - Fragma
16. 9pm (Till I come) (Signum remix) - ATB
17. After love (Signum remix) - Blank & Jones
18. Everyday - Agnelli & Nelson
19. Sparkles (Airscape mix) - DJ Tiesto
20. Pumpin' (Eniac 99 mix) - Novy vs Eniac
21. Everybody - 2000BC
22. Big girl (Yomanda mix) - Precocious Brats feat. Kevin & Perry

Is everyone on the cheese heroin today?

opps there he is. track 5.

rockefeller skank is worse than all these records

and why the surprise at will oldham fan lex on an indie thread?

CARLINSCALE SAYS:
Rockefeller Skank by Fatboy Slim:
is WORSE THAN:
Spike Milligan's Tape Recorder by The Membranes
but BETTER THAN:
A Red Letter Day by The Pet Shop Boys

Both of the tracks are equally awful, I'd turn the radio off if either came on.

Spike Milligan's Tape Recorder by The Membranes

WANT HEAR NOW!!!

(have to wait until home)

The Americans are about to invade this thread with 'lol Britisher' snark, I can practically hear the hoofbeats through the ground.

we shouldn't judge all Americans the same, that would be wrong.

the only Britishers I'm going to point my finger at on this thread are the ones repping for Paula fucking Cole, wtf people

multiple xpost

This is fantastic, you guys are using capital letters. I love it. I'll have to check out this Membranes song.

I also think this is the time to mention that Buffalo Tom had an album called "Big Red Letter Day".

9. I feel love (R.A.F. zone mix) - CRW

ah the pre-ILX days spent as a hard housemeister

i like 'Sound Of Bamboo'

i heard at least 9 of those songs that time you dj-ed with dog latin

What really irritates me is when people refer to the 1996/7 British charts as a legitimate excuse to delete 90's music. It's only the tip of the iceberg, and remember, the Titanic was holed below the waterline.

This Membranes song made the Peel Festive Fifty, too and I didn't even catch it. Thanks.

haha you mean there are people other than me who do that??? I mean I just have an unhealthy grudge against the '90s, it's not a big deal or anything (nb there are plenty of '90s bands I listen to)

Well, not in those terms, Curtis, but there's plenty of spite directed at the 90's, most of which revolves around a very shallow cross-section of the 'Britpop movement'. Most musical developments in that decade were amazingly progressive, positive, great, blah blah blah you know the drill by now.

I agree with Curtis. 1993 was really the last of any good music. I occupied my time by getting into The Who & Led Zeppelin in the mid 90's. And Jeff Buckley helped. But other than that...nothing was really exciting until Radiohead's OK Computer or Kid A.

yeah that's wrong actually

argh Bimble wtf

And Jeff Buckley helped.

ARGH BIMBLE WTF

PJ Harvey's album "Rid of Me" is a good example of the last of the good stuff before it all dried up. Although I am seriously regretting the fact that I don't have her Peel Sessions right now.

Didn't Orbital's Brown Album come out in '93?

Britpop certainly isn't why I dislike the '90s. I'll take Britpop over fucking Third Eye Blind anyday.

Louis, Bimble is as insane as Geir. (Although there is blind method behind his madness.)

hahahah I knew I was going to get compared to Geir soon! Hahahah In fact,I was going to compare myself to Geir. Classic.

Well, the 'Britpop' umbrella is a very wide one. On the one hand we had stuff like OCS (who still wrote a couple of half-decent songs but were generally pretty mediocre trad-rock dullards), but on the other, we had ****** or Blur, who took their music into some interesting/utterly brilliant new places.

Geir pops into a thread, dumps his opinion, then leaves; I don't think Bimble has quite mastered the third step yet!

I haven't read this thread and probably won't bother but I'd just like to point out that anyone accusing the Verve of ripping off the Stone's "the Last Time" should bear in mind that Jagger and Richards' ripped their version of the song straight from the Staples Singers - and of course kept all the credit for themselves.

BS is totally the better song too, btw.

Anyone who chooses Blur over Oasis is a friend of mine.

ocs did not write a single half-decent song.
blur did not take music into some interesting/utterly brilliant new places.

'Get Away' is a half-decent song AFAIC. Nothing more, mind.

Blur didn't perhaps take music itself into some interesting/utterly brilliant places, but with 'Blur' and '13' they definitely made strides within the context of their own music. Besides, I think 13 is a fairly revolutionary record whichever way you look at it. ALL OF THIS IS SUBJECTIVE.

whichever way you look at it. ALL OF THIS IS SUBJECTIVE.

Curtis, I was merely proposing the following highly subjective/arguable statement: "13 is a revolutionary record within the contexts of Blur's own career, popular music, and music as a whole."

hokay then

:):):):):)