Blue Note RVG Editions C/D

I think someone pointed out on another thread that RVG is an old man with (likely) diminished hearing and should not be overseeing remaster jobs.

I was really disappointed with the Maiden Voyage - it lost a lot of the magic.

I think someone pointed out on another thread that RVG is an old man with (likely) diminished hearing and should not be overseeing remaster jobs.

this was me and it is true
or it might have been a friend i linked this thread to, but whatever

Yeah I think a lot of the jazz dudes have said this at least once somewhere.

Is Cuscuna's mid-90s work on a variety of labels better per se or only good by comparison?

thought this amazon reviewer had some interesting theories:
I think these RVG issues are little more than another of Michael Cuscuna's re-marketing strategies. How many times does he expect us to buy these same titles? But we do! We get suckered in, thinking these will be the best-sounding yet--because they were remastered by Rudy Van Gelder himself. How many issues, how many years, does it take to get it right? For the Japanese, it takes just once. They had it right as far back as 1985, when they issued the Prestige Jazz Masterpieces series--gorgeous sound! At domestic prices, no less! (Compare those 1985 CDs, if you're lucky enough to own any, to the currently available harsh and brittle sounding, rush-job domestic OJC CDs of the same sessions.) Japanese Blue Note CDs always sound magnificent--perfect; you never hear any of those strident peaks that jump out and bite your ears and send you to turning down the volume or treble controls, all of which interrupts your concentration and the relaxation of getting into the music. Very simply put, they are the most faithful (and best, in my view) documentation of the masters on earth.

I know the jazz CD market is nothing like the trillion dollar pop CD market; Blue Note and Mosaic are probably barely keeping above water. Thus repackaging the same music every few years is probably necessary to keep the Blue Note catalog in existence (remember the days, just before CDs, when Blue Note LPs were simply no longer available...except from Japan?). And from reading Cuscuna's liner notes, I do believe he has a passion for this music.

But the audio of these domestically issued Blue Note CDs is and always has been inferior to, or at least noticeably different than, the Japanese issues.

And that's why I implore you, DO NOT squander $1739 on this set. As Rudy states in the DVD interview, he remastered these according to how he felt they should sound (today, 40 and 50 years after recording them). But that doesn't automatically mean you'll like the audio better than the Japanese mastering, or for that matter, previous Blue Note CD issues you may already have purchased. I know there'll be devout readers who'll be offended by comments like that. Rudy is revered, and I share in the much deserved and earned esteem we among the Blue Note cult feel towards him. But we should think with our ears in this case, not our hearts, and then we'll realize, not every one of these RVGs is necessarily the best of available remasters.

If Rudy did have a hand in remastering these, it sounds like he is self-servingly using this as an opportunity to "improve" his recordings--that is, to utilize technology he did not have, back when he made these, and to make his recordings competitive with today's recordings perhaps. Don't get me wrong--these RVGs sound very good. And Rudy made some great improvements to certain recordings, like getting rid of Kenny Burrell's ground noises, as Rudy points out in the interview, and minimizing the lacquer disc surface noise of the early Blue Note WOR recordings. But on many RVGs I've heard, you can hear how Rudy boosted the high end, sometimes to the point where it becomes uncomfortable to the ears. You know what I mean: you adjust the volume to where it's comfortable, but soon certain passages become harsh on the ears, and your enjoyment is thus interrupted while you have to fiddle again with the volume and treble controls. Check out the alternate of "Wee Dot" from A NIGHT AT BIRDLAND--for the love of Clifford, Art Blakey's cymbal rips our ear drums, and ruins Clifford's solo, which is actually the better solo of the two takes. All do respect to Rudy, I have a 1983 Japanese LP issue of BIRDLAND that is much smoother on the ear than the current RVG CD. I really do question that the RVG Birdland is in reality the remastering of the great Rudy, who, during a 1986 interview on NPR, when asked what his regrets are, immediately replied, "Not having the technology back then to accurately reproduce Clifford Brown's trumpet sound." No one with such love for Clifford could have done such lousy remastering. I think Cuscuna just puts Rudy's name on many of these RVGs.

Rudy also boosts the bass on these RVGs, as was done for the Connoisseur series. A common criticism of some of Rudy's Blue Notes was that they lacked in bass. Again, the RVG series was his chance to improve on this. There is a lot more bass definition and punch on these RVGs now.

IMPORTANT NOTE: if you buy any of these RVGs, be sure to grab the two volumes of Thelonious Monk. These include the 1951, pre-RVG Blue Notes recorded by Doug Hawkins at WOR studios on lacquer discs, not tape. In remastering these sessions, Rudy applied a process by which the disc surface noise is now just about eliminated, and he brought out much detail and nuance--these Monk RVGs are really so incredible that previous issues are now simply obsolete. By the way, as the notes indicate, the sessions are complete, and "Four in One" and its alternate take are included even though the tray card track sequence is all out of whack and does not show the alternate of "Four in One." GET THESE--can't emphasize it enough. Even if you have previous issues, also get the Jay Jay Johnson Volumes, in particular Volume 1, featuring Clifford Brown, another WOR lacquer recording that Rudy worked miracles with. On the other hand, on PERFECT TAKES, the sample cut from Hank Mobley's SOUL STATION is in mono--why ever would Rudy remaster his originally stereo recording in mono!? (I've reviewed that one.)

Rudy, I have the same respect for you and your '50s-'60s Blue Note work as I do the work of the greats you've recorded. But what a frustrating shame it is: the only way to hear your true magnificence is to buy Japanese imports, thanks to the Cuscuna-Toshiba racket.

But I believe that Rudy did not actually master all in the RVG series, and that many of these RVGs are nothing more than repackaged 1990s Connoisseur series remasters and/or hitherto shelved remasters--compare to the Connoisseurs you might own, and you'll hear what I mean. All in all, I theorize there is some sort of racket going on between Cuscuna and the Japanese. Think about it: Why, after all these years, after all those issues--Blue Note, Connoisseur, Ultimate, Gold, 16-Bit, RVG--why do the Japanese CDs still sound superior? (By the way, they're not always $35--you now can find new Japanese Blue Notes as low as $14.29 on Amazon.) And, while I'm at it, how many times have you purchased "The Complete," only to discover a new issue with additional material? The answer to both those questions is simple: Michael Cuscuna and Toshiba know what they're doing. By licensing out to the Japanese, and charging up to $40 a pop, and allowing the Japanese to remaster as they do (best in the world), meticulously striving to preserve the original audio, Cuscuna's cut probably yields more $ for his domestic Capitol Blue Note label than do his RVG domestic issues.

I've not yet heard a Japanese RVG, but I'd bet if you compared one to a domestic RVG of the SAME title, you'd like the Japanese audio better. If I'm right, that would prove, this RVG marketing ploy is a crock. What, Rudy would master it differently for the Japanese?

RVG or Japanese. It all comes down to what you the consumer, the listener, prefers between two remastering philosophies: Rudy's second chance digital improvements or the Japanese commitment to strict original audio.

Blue Note and Mosaic are probably barely keeping above water.

Um, have you perhaps heard of a singer called Norah Jones?

There is very little Blue Note vinyl floating around in the used bins, which is a shame.

http://music.search.ebay.com/blue-note_Records_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfgtpZQQfposZ02568QQfromZR2QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ2QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQlopgZQQsabfmtsZ1QQsacatZ306QQsadisZ200QQsaobfmtsZinsifQQsaprchiZQQsaprcloZQQsargnZQ2d1QQsaslcZ2QQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZbs

Oh how I miss the days when I had free access to a university jazz record library!

Stuff's expensive.

you can get new vinyl for not bad prices at some ebay stores:

http://search.stores.ebay.com/blue-note_Records_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfromZR2QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ2QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsabfmtsZ1QQsacatZ306QQsaobfmtsZinsifQQsbrexpZWD1SQQsbrhrlinkZstrQQsifZ1QQsofpZ4

i mean, if i saw this new in the record store for 14 bucks i would buy it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/HANK-MOBLEY-Roll-Call-BLUE-NOTE-4058_W0QQitemZ220121031132QQihZ012QQcategoryZ306QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I recently got my dad's collection of, like, 10 original Miles Davis LPs in fantastic condition (and some Brubeck, Monk, etc). Are they collector's items? I'm not going to sell them, but it might affect their lodgings, currently an old dairy crate in dusty corner of my room.

it depends. it always depends. pressings, etc.

i mean, if i saw this new in the record store for 14 bucks i would buy it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/HANK-MOBLEY-Roll-Call-BLUE-NOTE-4058_W0QQitemZ220121031132QQihZ012QQcategoryZ306QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

-- scott seward, Friday, June 22, 2007 10:55 PM

ha i just bought this new for $14

I'm listening to the Empyrean Isles RVG right now.

What have you done to Tony Williams, Mr. Van Gelder?! It's tragic.

Good thing I caught this thread. I was just about to do and Express Checkout on this.

holy shit

The funny thing is, even with the 16% off deal, 171 discs at $1739 is still more than $10 a disc. I'm pretty sure I've seen many of these selling for less than $10 a piece at any given time. And you'd think buying in bulk like that you'd get a really good deal. I wonder how many of these have been sold to some serious jazz freaks.

Oh how I miss the days when I had free access to a university jazz record library!

-- Hurting 2, Friday, 22 June 2007 22:38 (1 week ago) Link

Hurting--I might start working there in the next few weeks; what do you recommend I check out (that is, listen to, not actually check out of the library)?

Oh man, I don't know. Depends on the collection they have, and what you like. What do you like?

Part of the fun was just getting lost in the online catalog and getting all frothed up to listen to stuff.

^^ yes

I'd inevitably end up making these lists that were like pages long and gorging myself before losing the lists and having to start over like every two weeks. It was great.

listened to the RVG edition of Jackie Mclean's A Fickle Sonance on Rhapsody and between my computer speakers and lo-fi ears couldn't really discern the difference in the mix. good date, tho. Sonny Clark!

I have about 10 on the RVG Editions of some of my favorite albums, and a few more that i'm hearing for the first time. The Freddie Hubbard Title Red Clay certainly benefits from the remaster as does the Horace Silver Trio album. Beware, however, because they really screwed up the track sequencing on the latter and i still listen to the older version in lieu of taking the extra 5 minutes to re-program the preferred sequence into the player (leading off with "Horoscope").

Red Clay wasn't a Blue Note release though - are there RVG editions of CTI records too now?

Rudy's just burning shit at random and putting his name on them. i think he just re-mastered the aphex twin catalog.

Macbeth: The RVG Edition

not really qualified to get into a sound quality discussion, but i got the rvg edition of Lee Morgan's Tomcat the other day -- a smoking session, to be sure. Blakey, Tyner, McLean and Curtis Fuller are all on fire, Tyner especially. Wild that he could go from Love Supreme to this sort of funky post hard bop session at the drop of a hat. Also, it is insane that a session this good could go unreleased for 16 years!

Has anyone picked up one of these Blue Note vinyl re-issues? There are a limited number of titles available on this site. No idea how official they are. I've always wanted 'Out to Lunch' on vinyl so could be tempted.

musicmattersjazz has official 45rpm reissues. They're pretty pricey, though (when they're in stock).

Are they RVG edition vinyl reissues? If so, run away. Shit doesn't get better because you smear it on vinyl.

oh ok, maybe they're not. Pricey though!

It annoys me that a lot of the Spotify Blue Note stuff is RVG edition. Not that I'm going to necessarily get the best sound out of Spotify anyway, but it still makes a difference.

I have a bunch of RVG editions, and I honestly can't tell that (if) they sound crappy. Mostly Blakey, a Horace Silver, some Kenny Dorham.

But the only one I have that I've heard non-RVG editions of is Cecil Taylor's Conquistador!, and I couldn't tell the difference.

In what ways are the RVGs crapulent? (honest question, not trying to be audiophilically accusatory)