If Chic sued Sugar Hill Gang for lifting the bass line from "Good Times", why didn't they sue Queen also?

Because the Queen bassline isn't an exact copy, and that's the only element they took, rather than the entire arrangement? It's not rocket surgery.

"rockist science"

Yeah, but it's close enough for them to have a very strong case. I don't think the copyright law says it has to be exactly the same melody note to note, though maybe that was different in 1980?

ALWAYS SUE BLACK PEOPLE
PUTS THEM IN THEIR PLACE
DROP A LITIGATION BOMB
UPON THE ENTIRE RACE

OMGWTFLOLT-T-TOTALLYDUDE

"Another One Bites The Dust" is a lot closer to "Good Times" than the Stones' "Has Anybody Seen My Baby" was to K.D. Lang's "Constant Craving", and I'm pretty sure they got sued (and lost, or at least had to give co-writing credit) for that one.

iirc chic settled w/sugarhill out of court. at that time the only legal precedent would've been that geo harrison/mysweetlord case. many of those classik sugarhill singles bit other records for riffs, tho more obscure ones that chic. it was almost like the house band was transcribing grandmaster flash's breaks.

Nile Rodgers bided his time and waited ten years for his revenge against Queen, and then told Vanilla Ice to steal one of their basslines.

the most consistent similarity between the Chic bassline and the Queen bassline is playing root note of scale on 1, 2, 3 of first measure of riff, which is, um, not exactly unheard of, esp. in dance music

Yeah, Rodgers & Sugarhill settled. I'm guessing there were more settlements at the time, maybe less publicized. Did Queen ever sue Flash? Hard to find pre-De La/Biz copyright litigation online.

p.s. I am now using "t-t-t-totally dude" in place of "8080"

the most consistent similarity between the Chic bassline and the Queen bassline is playing root note of scale on 1, 2, 3 of first measure of riff, which is, um, not exactly unheard of, esp. in dance music

No, but Queen bassist John Deacon went on record as saying he was "paying tribute" to Chic. Which reminds me of the Krusty the Klown line, "Stole, made-up, what's the difference?"

pastiche isn't stealing.

tribute isn't pastiche either. chic wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on, i reckon that's the reason they didn't sue queen.

^^27 years ago. wait till the big rec co's get really desperate

in related news:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/27/nyregion/27pearl.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin

the word "pastiche," my mortal nemesis

I can never use that word right.

it's 'parstyshay'

Musical copyright law is also pretty bad about covering bass lines: it's set up around top-level melody. (Sensibly, in lots of cases -- we can't exactly have everyone suing everyone over basic old rock'n'roll bass lines or chord progressions like C-Am-F-G.)

The two lines aren't really similar enough to get far with a suit anyway: hitting the first three notes on-beat is standard and non-distinctive; moving up through the next bar isn't that distinctive of a decision (basically a fill); and the Chic moves steadily up through seven notes to land on the third bar, whereas the Queen moves up through ONE note to land on the 3 and then pause. (The fact that they both land on the same interval -- is that a 4th? -- is also way basic and non-distinctive.)

I thought I read somewhere that John Deacon was actually in the studio with them when Chic was recording "Good Times."

Nabisco, did you ever see that thing on VH-1 where Vanilla Ice is explaining how the bassline from "Ice Ice Baby" is *totally* different from the bassline at the beginning of "Under Pressure"?

dude there is a world of difference between Vanilla Ice's musical pedantry and the Good Times/AOBTD divide

I totally agree! I just thought that it was funny to compare what Nabisco had written to Vanilla Ice saying: "their song goes dum-dum-dum-da-da-dum-dum, dum-dum-dum-da-da-dum-dum, and my song goes dum-dum-dum-da-da-dum-dum, DA-dum-dum-dum-da-da-dum-dum."

Okay, here's another question: if Huey Lewis & the News succesfully sued Ray Parker Jr. for "Ghost Busters", why didn't the guy who wrote "Pop Muzik" sue them both?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FabM1RJTkrY

To my ears the bass melody is pretty much the same in all three, and "Pop Muzik" came out in 1979.

why don't you ask him?

Think in court the balance of evidence needs to be a little stronger than your opinion.

Well maybe some poster with better knowledge in music theory could say if there's some signifigant difference in "Pop Muzik"? Because to me the bass in it sounds even more like "Ghost Busters" than the bass in "I Want a New Drug".

During his keynote address at the EMP conference in April, Nile Rodgers was actually bragging about hanging out with guys from Queen the night before Chic came up with "Good Times"! (Pretty sure I have that right -- somebody else who was there should feel free to correct me/fill in other details if I don't -- like, which Queen people exactly? I wasn't taking notes.) But weirdly, nobody made the "Another One Bites the Dust" connection; I've been wondering about it ever since.

Actually, just noticed this upthread: I thought I read somewhere that John Deacon was actually in the studio with them when Chic was recording "Good Times."

ts. does tuomas deserve a break sometimes? my answer: yes, stop bullying.

I'm still interested why the "Pop Muzik" guy didn't sue Ray Parker Jr.? And has whoever wrote "Build Me Up Buttercup" ever tried to sue ABBA because of "Waterloo"?

i don't think you understand the difference between passing similarities and grounds for legal charges of plagiarism

Well, like I said upthread, to me the bassline in "Pop Muzik" sounds even closer to "Ghostbusters" than "I Want a New Drug" does, but if anyone who's better versed in music theory can confirm or debunk this, I'm all ears.

Probably because Huey Lewis *did* sue RPJ, and did not win.

(Check "I want a new drug")

oh, ignore the brackets bit.

Anyway, as I say, there were tons of legal teams defending RPJ and "Ghostbusters" because of all the moneys involved. I recall, their team had already commissioned a 'comparison' from a 'musicologist' well ahead of any legal action, which the prosecution alleged was admission of a kind in the first place. But, it did not stick.

Anyway, as I say, Robin Scott would have needed a lot of money against that kind of legal defence squad to have a hope.

I thought Huey Lewis did win? At least it settled, with the terms long lost to confidentiality agreemenets.

Parker was later the defendant in a copyright infringement lawsuit which claimed "Ghostbusters" was too similar in musical structure to "I Want a New Drug," written and performed by Huey Lewis and the News (more specifically, the bass/guitar riff which runs through the song). "I Want a New Drug" was a U.S. top-ten hit earlier the same year and was extremely similar to Pop Muzik by M, a project by Robin Scott.[1] The two parties settled out of court. Details of the settlement (specifically, that Parker paid Lewis a settlement) were confidential until 2001, when Lewis commented on the payment in an episode of VH1's Behind the Music. Parker subsequently sued Lewis for breaching confidentiality.[2]

Wikipedia says Parker and Huey Lewis settled out of court, Parker paying Lewis as compensation. So it doesn't sound like Lewis "lost".

(xx-post)

And then released a single called "I want my money back"

(ah OK, he didn't really)

I think the clincher was that early cuts of the "Ghostbusters" movie used "I want a new drug" as the stand-in theme ahead of RPJ creating his song.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, that's why Robin Scott didn't do it: That'd be two sets of legal people he'd have to take on.

Okay, but what about the writers of "Build Me Up Buttercup"? Surely it didn't go unnoticed by them that this huge ABBA hit had almost the same melody?

Hmm. I've seen a few mentions that after winning Eurovision with "Waterloo" ABBA was indeed accused of plagiarism by some. At some point Benny addressed it but dismissed it, saying "waterloo" was as much in common with "Baby Love" and lots of other songs, too.

there are just so many songs that sound like each other, and so few instances where it results in a lawsuit, that i think it's funny that whenever Tuomas notices one he's like "what's wrong with them!??? that's money in the bank man!!!"

or the fact he keeps returning to the same one, from the 80s

Takes money in the bank to sue someone. I doubt the "Build Me Up Buttercup" people had enough cash to take on ABBA.

Come to think of it, these sorts of suits are pretty rare, aren't they? All I can think of is George Harrison, Huey Lewis and John Fogerty (for plagiarizing himself). At least in the pre-sampling era, which was more cut and paste, so to speak.

Thesedays, it takes a letter.

Return of post = "Oh, fair enough, how about a cheque for £x,000 and no credit add-on, you OK with that? Sign Here.."

The "Pop Muzik"/"I Want A New Drug"/"Ghostbusters" riff is just an old stock blues riff anyway.

Come to think of it, these sorts of suits are pretty rare, aren't they? All I can think of is George Harrison, Huey Lewis and John Fogerty (for plagiarizing himself). At least in the pre-sampling era, which was more cut and paste, so to speak.

Not quite in the league of those three cases, but Garbage got sued over "I Think I'm Paranoid":

In May 2001, New York-based music publisher Helios Music Corporation filed a copyright infringement suit against Garbage, the band's own publisher Rondor Music, its North American record label Almo Sounds, and seven other co-defendants in the United States District Court for the Central District of California, alleging that "I Think I'm Paranoid" copied "significant elements of both lyrics and music"[20] from the 1967 Scott English and Larry Weiss composition "Bend Me, Shape Me" (a hit in the U.S. for The American Breed and in the U.K. for Amen Corner),[21] and that by failing to give "credit to the writers and publisher of ["Bend Me, Shape Me"], the defendants had falsely represented to the public that [Garbage] had independently created and are the authors of ["I Think I'm Paranoid"], in its entirety."[20] Helios contendend that the chorus to "Bend Me, Shape Me" ("Bend me, shape me/Anyway you want me") was similar to that of the Garbage lyric ("Bend me, break me/Anyway you need me");[21] Helios sought credit for "I Think I'm Paranoid", as well as damages, including all profits generated by the song and for the defendants to cease "any further sale, distribution or exploitation" of the song".[20] Garbage considered the legal action a "nuisance suit".

Garbage had tons of really obvious samples and interpolations (The Clash, Salt N Pepa, Beach Boys, The Pretenders) on their early singles that they fully owned up to or acknowledged so i don't know why they wouldn't pony up credit/money for that one, which is even more obvious than the others.

that kind of rides the line! certainly the garbage chorus is meant to call back to "bend me shape me".

did the old guys win that suit?

xp

Garbage went so far as to fax Chrissie Hynde the lyrics to "Special" asking for permission to allude to "Talk of the Town."

[xpost]

It doesn't say on wiki (I c&p'd the whole section re:the case). I seem to recall reading somewhere that they settled out of court.

On a related note, what ever became of the action by the controllers of Love's publishing to sue Madonna re:"borrowing" from "She Comes In Colors" for "Beautiful Stranger"?

I'm still pissed about Men At Work losing copyright case over the interpolation of the Kookaburra song into Land Down Under

I didn't realize the Love people actually brought suit! Always thought that was an obvious rip.

Elastica another more or less contemporary band that paid the price. But from the '60s to the '80s - pretty rare? Obviously '50s and earlier, theft was rampant. '60s, too (looking at you, Zep). My guess is most estates didn't know they could sue, or settled retroactively years down the line. What ever happend with the flute player belatedly suing the Beastie Boys for "Sure Shot?" And isn't the reason the "Rock Hard EP" is not available because AC/DC did not give its blessing?

Elastica and Garbage felt very much to me like cool kids winkingly showing off their record collections. i suppose Zep and their contemporaries biting blues songs was the equivalent of its time, though. most plagiarism charges, i always imagine, are either coincidental or baseless or totally accidental subconscious theft. there's no worse feeling than playing around with a new song idea and getting excited about it, and then realizing it sounds so good because it strongly resembles a song you know and enjoy already.

The one thing that's worse is writing something you think is great and then realizing later that you accidentally ripped off a song you don't even like.

I one time wrote a song I was very happy with until I realized it was "Welcome To The Jungle" with different lyrics.

What ever happend with the flute player belatedly suing the Beastie Boys for "Sure Shot?"

he got told "c'mon son, they cleared the sample, you can't go for songwriting too"

And isn't the reason the "Rock Hard EP" is not available because AC/DC did not give its blessing?

yeah, but it did get quietly re-released on vinyl in Europe a few years back

I one time wrote a song I was very happy with until I realized it was "Welcome To The Jungle" with different lyrics.

― The Reverend, Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:08 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

being familiar w/ your music makes this extra difficult yet hilarious to imagine

Wikipedia says Parker and Huey Lewis settled out of court, Parker paying Lewis as compensation. So it doesn't sound like Lewis "lost".

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTY3MjIwOTkyNV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNDkwOTIxMw@@._V1._SY317_CR8%2C0%2C214%2C317_.jpg

Parker: "Lewis can't lose." :(

pic no renderie

being familiar w/ your music makes this extra difficult yet hilarious to imagine

― some dude, Thursday, August 30, 2012 3:12 PM Bookmark

This was years ago when I was writing song-type songs mostly for my own edification. Nothing to do with what I'm doing now.

The "Pop Muzik"/"I Want A New Drug"/"Ghostbusters" riff is just an old stock blues riff anyway.

― The Reverend, 30. elokuuta 2012 23:14

You can actually hear a rather similar riff on Donny Hathaway's "Magnificent Sanctuary Band", released 8 years before "Pop Muzik":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7nOuh-jD8E

I'd be interested to hear any earlier examples of this riff on record, does anyone know?

I'm thinking about suing Ray Parker Jr. myself

When (I think.. ) Alan Hull sued Whigfield over Saturday Night, he won and got a payment.

However, there were some who thought The Equals song "Rub a dub" was much closer, like hey...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T1bRuCo_gg

I can only imagine the songwriters really wanted to pretend this one never happened...