The 16th P&J Albums (and EPs) Poll!

Sonic Youth, PE, and the Wilburys excepted, that's the dullest top ten of the decade. Even though it's no longer my favorite of theirs I'll go with Daydream Nation.

yeah after the SY and PE classix this list pretty much falls off a steep cliff. I do think that PSB's Introspective and Patti's Dream of Life are better than that but they're both prob for true fans only.

I just read Rolling Stone's original review of Introspective. Harsh!

lame excuse, but: the editor ripped that one to shreds & put in his ill informed 2 cents :P

one of life's more humiliating moments to be sure

Yeah, because NO ONE on earth would want to sing like Al Stewart, right?

Lucinda Williams' best album should have made the top ten.

even I liked that Lucinda LP.

the year i stopped giving a shit about albums. now i remember why.

Jeez, it's not that bad. Doesn't anyone like the Keith album? Alfred???

The Balck Album (which I didn't hear until the 90s) is tight, there are what 3 or 4 indescrutible songs on Appetite For Destruction and that Feelies album is nice tho I much prefer their jittery debut.

Oh that Keith. now Keith Whitley was ruling country music in 1988.

I haven't heard it in years and would probably make the lower reaches of my year-end tally (certainly not the top ten). Critics were just relieved to get a decent Stonesy album from one of the band's principals that wasn't Primitive Cool; they'd overrate Steel Wheels the following year. Dirty Work is the real sleeper.

(xpost)

Yeah, I haven't heard it in ages myself, but I remember loving it at the time. (Now I know what I'll be listening to next.)

The energy of Daydream Nation hasn't diminished one iota for me. Even a supposedly luded-out track like "The Sprawl" jams as hard as it sprawls. And where is the love for my beloved "Rain King," if the not best song on the album then at least the most representative? My sixth or seventh fave album of all-time.

By contrast, It Takes A Nation (um, hello! I JUST realized that both of these albums feature the word "nation" in their titles....talk about daydream!) sounded a bit sluggish the last time I heard it a year or so ago which devastates me since I so adored it at the time and for many years after that. Maybe my less than rapturous reaction means that what I loved best about the album was not its forward fury but its vertical, interruptive quality - all those sound bites/bytes, intros, one-minute tracks, break downs, explosive re-entries, that freaky Queen sample, etc. I'll never forget hearing it the first time in a friend's car. We both thought it sounded like We're Only In It For The Money, a comparison I still find appropriate even though I recognize that as white suburban kids, we were missing more recent hip-hop antecedents.

Then again, I wonder if this is one of those albums ruined by CD sound even though CDs were probably eclipsing vinyl by this time (or would very soon after). I fell in love with it on vinyl and a pretty shitty stereo where it always seemed to rush faster than I could catch it. But that last hearing was on CD and it felt waaaay slower, even clunkier than I remembered it. Same thing happened with The New York Dolls (although eventually one of those comp CDs revealed kernels of Johnny Thunders' genius that my K-Mart console couldn't pick up).

In any event, "Night of the Living Baseheads" remains their masterpiece here, more death-defying than anything on Daydream or anything ever.

And, once again, the top ten doesn't look all that bad to me. A bit Boomer, yes. Even some punk (pre-punk?) nostalgia with Pere Ubu. But there's much sadder records below the top ten here. And I love that kooky ass Was (Not Was) record.

I like Pere Ubu and Public Enemy's next albums better.

A bit Boomer, yes. Even some punk (pre-punk?) nostalgia with Pere Ubu.

Actually, by 1988, 1977 was almost as oppressive as 1967. Almost.

I just read Rolling Stone's original review of Introspective. Harsh!

Hardly a shock. Who wrote it, though?

Mark already made his mea culpas. I'm shocked that late eighties RS let him get away with using "disposable" as a compliment!

Much as I love G'n'R and know in my heart they're better, today I feel like listening to the Randy Newman, so I voted for it. Despite the awful rap song.

Memory lane.

1988 was hardly a bad year. It's just that they ignored 15 of the year's 20 best albums. That's just ridiculous, given that they're hardly obscure.

The Pixies * Surfer Rosa (4AD)
N.W.A. * Straight Outta Compton (Ruthless)
Eleventh Dream Day * Prairie School Freakout (Amoeba)
Talk Talk * Spirit Of Eden (EMI)
My Bloody Valentine * Isn't Anything (Creation)
Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds * Tender Prey (Mute)
Dinosaur Jr. * Bug (SST)
EPMD * Strictly Business (Sleeping Bag/Fresh)
The Jungle Brothers * Straight Out The Jungle (Warlock)
Boogie Down Productions * By All Means Necessary (Jive)
Ultramagnetic MCs * Critical Beatdown (Next Plateau)
Naked Raygun * Jettison (Caroline)
Slayer * South Of Heaven (American)
Souled American * Fe (Rough Trade)
The Pogues * If I Should Fall From The Grace Of God (WEA)

I guess I probably should have voted for Daydream Nation but I figured that would already get enough votes, so I went with my dark-horse second-choice: I'm Your Man.

Not to mention Kronos 4tet doing Steve Reich's Different Trains, and Stacy Q doing Stacy Q's Hard Machine! But yeah, if we were really voting, definitely Strictly Business or Isn't Anything. (I also really like Petra's On Fire!, but I can accept that I'm alone.)

Stacey?

I didn't hear the great MBV and Ultramagnetic MCs albums until the 1990s. In fact, it was only in the wake of Dr. Octagon that I heard the latter. Did Brit crits (apart from Reynolds) take to Isn't Anything right away?

I had Bug listed as 1989 but I see now that I was wrong. So that makes it my third fave album of 1988. A flawless first side on that one (even though my copy skipped from day two).

Never even heard of Souled American.

Of the EPs, Superfuzz Bigmuff reigns supreme. I worshipped Mudhoney's Sub Pop output at the time. But they flailed around helplessly in major labeldom.

Loved Nothing's Shocking too (and even that live debut thang) but haven't heard it in well over a decade. I'd love to know how it holds up but my copy's a 20-hour drive away.

Stinky even at the time: Bullet LaVolta.

it'll be amazing if more than about five albums get any votes in this one. (I went with PE)

it'll be amazing if GnR and sonic youth don't take the top two spots by a landslide. (i went with george michael, though i could've easily voted for either of those two.)

I went with GnR, but sooooo would have picked EPMD if that was an option.

I couldn't have voted for Faith in '88 in good conscience, but at least two of its singles would have my list.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

1988 was the last year I found myself loving more than a dozen-or-so LPs, and of course many of 'em aren't listed altho fastnbulbous nailed a couple. And of course opinions change over time: I gave my Xth-generation cassette copy of the Black Album more love than the officially released version 6 years later, whereas I grew to appreciate ...And Justice For All more over the years.

I pretty much agree with Kevin about Sonic Youth but voted for Pere Ubu just for variety. Other favourites: Last Exit, Slammin' Watusis, Original Concept.

My second favorite album on the list is the Pet Shop Boys.

My favorite one is one I actually voted for in Pazz & Jop the year before.

Here are some records that got forgot:

Probably some of the best (and worst) records of 1988, but not all of them

did you ever review Introspective, chuck? I thought you alluded to your review in the blurb you wrote for Disco 2 in 1994 or something?

it'll be amazing if more than about five albums get any votes in this one.

I can actually see many of the following getting at least 1 vote:

Public Enemy: It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back (Def Jam)
Sonic Youth: Daydream Nation (Blast First/Enigma)
Pere Ubu: The Tenement Year (Enigma)
Traveling Wilburys: Volume One (Wilbury)
Randy Newman: Land of Dreams (Warner Bros.)
Leonard Cohen: I'm Your Man (Columbia)
Lucinda Williams: Lucinda Williams (Rough Trade)
U2: Rattle and Hum (Island)
Guns N' Roses: Appetite for Destruction (Geffen)
The Feelies: Only Life (A&M)
Camper Van Beethoven: Our Beloved Revolutionary Sweetheart (Virgin)
Pet Shop Boys: Introspective (EMI-Manhattan)
Jane's Addiction: Nothing's Shocking (Warner Bros.)
R.E.M.: Green (Warner Bros.)
Metallica: . . . And Justice for All (Elektra)

Probably some others too.

did you ever review Introspective, chuck?

Yeah, it was a lead review in the Voice at the time. Don't think it's findable on line, though.

Sykurmolarnir

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

My goodness, who voted for Living Color?

My goodness, who voted for Mudhoney??

My goodness, how did I miss this poll? I must have blacked out the past 2 days. Woulda voted for Nothing's Shocking bumping it up into a tie for 4th.

Oh, and the case can be made for Mudhoney too: kinda kickstarted you know what which kinda changed rock for the next dozen years or so.

Yeah, I would've waaaay voted for Muhoney if this were an EP only poll. Waaaay better than Living (yawn) Color, a band I've tried desperately to like.

By the time I head Mudhoney (after liking Green River and Soundgarden singles and EPs just fine in a couple years previous), I had already given up on you know what. Still not sure in what way they kickstarted it; if you were paying attention, it was already there. If not, you probably wouldn't know til 1991 (which is fine, too.)

My flippant Mudhoney comment is based solely on two songs I've heard by them, both of which I disliked, intensely; I'm sure there's more to them than what I know. Still, in an entirely personal sense, they were (along with Dinosaur Jr. and all sorts of other stuff) much more an end-of-the-line thing than a beginning of one (i.e., the end of all the amerindie stuff I just grew so completely sick of by '87 or '88). I'm sure I prefer "late" grunge to "early" grunge.

As for Living Colour--I swear I've heard maybe two songs by them (they just didn't interest me at the time), but I suspect their album might at least have a little something going for it sound-wise? At least compared to Mudhoney? I honestly don't know.

Well, Mick Jagger produced "Glamor Boys." Is that a compliment?

I suspect their album might at least have a little something going for it sound-wise? At least compared to Mudhoney?

Well, it certainly does have it over Mudhoney and Dinosaur Jr. sound-wise but in a sterile way more appealing to recording engineers and audiophiles than me (and probably you). Not to say that was their primary audience. Those types probably weren't in the crowd at a very violent Living Colour show I saw at the time in Milwaukee. But I'm sure they were listening and digging. And I suspect their legacy now lies with their clean, precise, hard-edged sound rather than their ability to rock out like motherfuckers. Certainly not a horrible legacy. I don't know. Even back then, they were something I wanted to like more than I actually did. And I don't get their 1990s albums either.

Mudhoney, by contrast, rocked out like motherfuckers. For a short time, they truly were sick. But sound-wise, they were a bit too noisy/lo-fi to match Living Colour's popularity. And clearly, this is where Nirvana/Butch Vig stepped in. Their success was due in part to how they cleaned up the Green River/Mudhoney/Sub Pop/Bleach/grunge sound (didn't Joe Levy compare them to Steely Dan in a Pazz poll?).

And on my beloved Bug, Dinosaur Jr. indulged in one of the classics cases of the-thing-and-not-the-thing of the 1980s. You hear both an embrace and a rejection of the belief that rocking out like a mothefucker can save your life if not the world. The guitar reached for the skies while getting pelted with carpet bombs of feedback and shitty sound. Somehow you knew J. Mascis was a big crybaby. But the noise thankfully steamrolled over most specifics leaving a general yearning in its place.

Both bands floundered in the 1990s. Kurt Cobain died in 1994. Nah, I just have a piece of dirt in my eye.

after liking Green River and Soundgarden singles and EPs just fine in a couple years previous), I had already given up on you know what. Still not sure in what way they kickstarted it; if you were paying attention, it was already there.

Yes, yes, Green River came beforehand. But who was in Green River? Wasn't it 2/4 of Mudhoney? Yes indeedy. As for kickstarting what they would later call out as so overblown, Mudhoney's ep in this poll is much more prototypical IMO. Soundgarden and Green River had equal parts metal and garage in 'em. But of course I think the first grunge band was The Troggs.

Their [Nirvana's] success was due in part to how they cleaned up the Green River/Mudhoney/Sub Pop/Bleach/grunge sound

I agree, maybe, though without knowing much of Mudhoney (and a whole bunch of the other bands listed above), I'd put money down that Nirvana just wrote way better songs as well, and had a much better singer.

Well, right. That's why I wrote "in part." Nirvana >>>> Mudhoney. But Mark Arm (Mudhoney lead singer) could really bellow. I was shocked when I first saw how girly (NOT an insult) he looked. Voice and body definitely did not match in any conventional way.

Mudhoney, by contrast, rocked out like motherfuckers

Hardly. But they tried to, I guess.

(Not to mention country, blues, folk, rock'n'roll, and jazz musicians. For starters.)

("rock'n'roll" meaning '50s--like, say, Chuck Berry, and other obscure people like that.)

Well, none of the bands listed above made irony famous, BOC most definitely included. Steely Dan even more definitely included. Dylan, I'll give ya.

And I did tell that to Dylan. He said nothing.

Famous like Paris Hilton famous? I don't think so <cough> Blue Oyster Cult </cough>. Famous like Alanis Morisette famous? And yes, I'm joking at the latter example...

So wait - in what alternate universe were Mudhoney more famous than Blue Oyster Cult and Steely Dan, then? (Or are you guys being ironic, too?)

Mudhoney's basically a post-metal NRBQ. Which I'm down with!

MC said Gen X made irony famous. I was merely stating that BOC and Steely Dan didn't make irony famous. I never said that they weren't famous bands. Of course, they were waaaay more famous than Mudhoney, obviously. But neither BOC nor Steely Dan made irony famous no matter how famous the bands themselves actually were.

And Mudhoney made irony famous how again? (I'm honestly not trying to be difficult. Just trying to figure out how a minor college-radio cult band's irony was more famous than the irony of [to me, way more explicity ironic] bands who sold millions upon millions of albums worldwide, and had careers that lasted for decades. It doesn't make any sense to me at all, but maybe I'm missing something obvious in the equation,)

Or are you just implying that BOC's and Steely Dan's megamillions of fans were stupid, and hence took everything they did and sang entirely at face value?

(To be fair, I'm also not sure if I even know what it means for a band to be "ironic." Irony is a tool, just like a high voice or a drum solo. And a much harder one to pin down, to my ears. Nothing by Mudhoney ever hit me as ironic -- no more ironic than anything else in their genre, anyway, and far less ironic than lots of other stuff in their genre, including plenty of bands I've mentioned, and there were other hard rock genres at the very same time [hair metal for instance--check out those early Poison videos!] that could give late '80s indie rock a run for its money on irony terms, I'm sure -- but maybe I just wasn't paying close attention.)

xp Kevin, is it really irony you're talking about here? Maybe if you were using the word "detachment" I'd be following what you're saying a little better. Am I misunderstanding this entirely?

And Mudhoney made irony famous how again?

You're going to have to ask MC that because I never made that claim.

As for BOC and Steely Dan, I'd never say the fans that didn't get the irony were stupid; both bands had other compensations beyond whatever winking they were trafficking in. But they DID have tons of fans that didn't get the irony thus not making irony famous.

But again, I didn't make the original claim "Gen X made irony famous." I wouldn't have phrased it that way, for one. Plus I'm not sure irony has ever been famous whatever that means exactly.

But yes, Scott, I absolutely think irony is the correct word when dealing with Steely Dan (less so with BOC but it still applies). Irony is very difficult to pin down indeed. And it is a tool. It's a tool to engineer some sort of gap in meaning, usually between the intended meaning and the actual meaning.

(Actually, it was Devo who made irony famous.)

But they DID have tons of fans that didn't get the irony thus not making irony famous.

Wrong. 300 million - 299 million still = 1 million. (I'm just saying.)

See I don't buy MC's original premise which was "But that's not to say that Mudhoney didn't bring anything new to the table: irony, that evil Gen X word, was much needed at the end of the earnest '80s." "Earnest" and "1980s" just do not go together in my head despite Springsteen, Johnny Cougar (!), Stevie Ray, whoever. Even most of the great Amerindie bands that predated Mudhoney winked and nudged with the best of them (Hüskers were the big exception here, maybe Los Lobos and The Blasters too if they count). I don't X or Black Flag were particularly ironic. But "earnest" isn't a word that comes up to describe them either. And this is to leave out new wave, post-punk, disco, Pet Shop Boys, etc.

But I just don't think irony has ever been famous which I'm taking to mean widely understood. When I said "maybe America," all I meant was that irony has a much longer tradition of popularity in England (which is NOT to say that every English person has always understood irony) and possibly Canada (Australians, Africans, Brazilians, anyone to thread).

Then again, when I lived in Montréal, I couldn't get my Canadian friends to watch Canadian cinema because they found it too painfully earnest.

Wrong. 300 million - 299 million still = 1 million. (I'm just saying.)

I interviewed 300 million Steely Dan fans. Only 2000 of them understood the irony. So I'm right.

x post I don't THINK X or Black Flag were particularly ironic.

"Painfully earnest" = Brit-pop, basically (even if it thinks it's being ironic.)

And Americans' inability to understand irony also explains why Creem magazine came from London, I guess.

This is the weirdest discussion on irony I've ever tried to follow. I honestly don't get what you guys are talking about at all! You're discussing irony like it's a genre.

"Painfully earnest" = Brit-pop, basically (even if it thinks it's being ironic.)

Waaay disagree. Even placing two irony-laden documents such as Rhino's first two Nuggets boxes up against one another reveals the second, mostly Brit box to be the clear victor in this realm.

And "irony has a much longer tradition of popularity in England" does not mean that Americans are unable to understand irony. But as you yourself said, it's hard to pin down.

Maybe we should wait for MC to step in here because he's the one who introduced it here.

"it" being irony

(I meant '90s Brit-pop, for whatever that's worth. I've never had much use for that '60s Brit fake Nuggets thing, though yeah, earnestness isn't why. But mainly, in general, the whole tired "Brits get irony and Yanks don't" truism has always driven me nuts. Inasmuch as I have any idea what it's supposed to mean, anyway.)

(And Scott, being Canadian, is probably completely accurate in suggesting the discussion makes no sense.)

Just looking at the list above, I doubt I'd call Jane's Addiction or Camper Beethoven or Pussy Galore particularly earnest (okay, maybe Jane's Addiction. Though probably more so later), but I'd definitely think the adjective describes Billy Bragg and Midnight Oil (Aussies) and, uh, U2 (who are come off as earnest even when they pretend not to -- in fact, they were probably as responsible as anyone for setting the Brit-pop template for that.) But yeah, I'm being extremely selective, and leaving out John Hiatt and Grant Hart. And I have no idea where the Feelies fit into the equation, much less Ambitious Lovers (earnest Americans pretending to be ironic Brazilians??) Also, I just this second realized I've never heard Bullet Lavolta. Did I miss anything? (Maybe not Divine Horsemen, either, who I bet I'd like more.)

And Scott, being Canadian, is probably completely accurate in suggesting the discussion makes no sense.

Oh stop; it makes perfect sense.

Scott, Xhuxk called irony a tool and I agreed with him. I said that it was used in many genres (Amerindie, new wave, disco, post-punk, etc.) and by many different artists. So I think we've been discussing it as a tool rather than a genre unto itself.

Hope that makes it a little clearer.

Also, I just this second realized I've never heard Bullet Lavolta. Did I miss anything?

No. Very stinky even though the great Rob Sheffield pumped them in Spin.

Scott, Xhuxk called irony a tool and I agreed with him. I said that it was used in many genres (Amerindie, new wave, disco, post-punk, etc.) and by many different artists. So I think we've been discussing it as a tool rather than a genre unto itself.

But it seems like you're talking about irony as something necessarily determined by the artist, whereas I would say irony is determined as much if not more in how a piece of music is perceived. So the whole British-American divide doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Couldn't you say Americans have had a strongly developed sense of irony at least since (though probably well before) the Beatles? Who were of course British, but whose ironic British sensibility was hugely appealing to Americans?

Also, I don't get when Chuck says "Irony is a tool, just like a high voice or a drum solo." I guess I could see how a high voice is a "tool" if it was used as a put-on--i.e., a person with a low voice singing falsetto, maybe. Otherwise, isn't a high voice just a high voice? I don't know if a drum solo is a tool, though they're usually performed by tools.

??? Scott, high voices and drum solos (and, uh, irony, I guess) (or lyrics that say things ironically?) (or something) are part of the toolkit from which musicians choose elements make songs. Isn't that obvious? (Would it be clearer if I said "high notes"? So sure, a falsetto might be one example of that. But whether your high voice counts as a falsetto or not, you don't sing every line or verse or chorus in the exact same register, do you? You pick and choose what works when, for all sorts of reasons which may or may not make any difference when I eventually hear the song.) (As for the obverse, I'm not sure I've ever perceived a piece of music ironically, myself, though I'd be willing to entertain arguments to the contrary.)

When Mudhoney appeared on Bill Nye the Science Guy to do the theme song, they weren't being ironic.

But it seems like you're talking about irony as something necessarily determined by the artist, whereas I would say irony is determined as much if not more in how a piece of music is perceived.

I pretty much agree. But irony is definitely a self-conscious strategy in the music of Steely Dan, BOC, Pet Shop Boys, etc. Whether or not the irony is perceived is a different matter.

Actually, though, Eric Bloom, for one, didn't seem to think there was an ironic note in BOC's oeuvre. And Neil Tennant has said that he doesn't understand why so many people hear them as ironic. But I think he's being evasive here (dare I say ironic?). "I Want A Dog" is about as ironic as music ever gets.

xps Nah, but if they had gone on Beakman's World instead, they would have been for sure. (Actually, I never knew they were on either.).

Maybe Scott's confusion is with the word "tools," I just realized. (If so, does "colors in a paint kit" make any more sense?)

And wait -- does Neil Tennant really hate dogs? That's so sad. (Oh yeah! They chase him through suburbia, right? Now I remember: he's scared of them!)

There's no irony in "I Want A Dog" -- he's singing as a character!

*through a character, rather

xp And wait, so is Scott saying that listeners perceive irony within a piece of music whether the musicians intend it to be there or not? (If so, I probably agree with that, sure. But my brain is starting to hurt.)

does Neil Tennant really hate dogs?

He may want a dog. But that's not the central concern of the song.

There's no irony in "I Want A Dog" -- he's singing as a character!

I don't buy this at all. But even if it were true, the adoption of character personae is a very common method of transmitting irony.

I'll grant this, but it's not strong enough to create a distance between Tennant, his lyrics, and the audience. That's what makes the song so touching! He's so lonely that he wants to hear a chihuahua bark in his flat. The irony is implied in the subject matter, i.e. "Who on earth would sing/write something so defiantly trivial"?

Examples of using irony as a tool (I think):

"I'm not missing you at all." (John Waite)
"She thinks I still care." (George Jones)

I have no idea whether Tool ever use irony as a tool, however.

Email received three hours ago from my 17-year-old daughter Cordelia:

oh p.s.
i could never be your woman by white town is pretty much the best song in the world to date.

The irony is implied in the subject matter, i.e. "Who on earth would sing/write something so defiantly trivial"?

See, I used to think this. Don't know when it changed for me. Probably in the context of their later, underrated adult romance albums (although even here, check out what the video for "Warm and Dry" does to the song).

He doesn't want a freakin' dog. He wants a husband! And therein lies the irony, the distance. Here is a man who in the song immediately preceding this one is trying to figure out how to love (and even hate) if he were left to his own devices. As a man of privilege who gets up at half past ten (bet it was even later than that) and doesn't have to compete, he doesn't even know what his own devices are. He hasn't really needed to know because he's always been able to pick up the best from the party animal.

But now he wants to love (and hate) and the party animal's no help with that (neither is a cat). So if he were left to his own devices, he'd know how to say "I want you" (or at least "I want him"). Or more precisely, he'd know how to say "I want to be your dog" (and here we should remember the punk appreciation on the part of the Boys, e.g. one thing they adored about Bobby O's productions was that they sounded like punk-disco). But he doesn't know how to say these things. So instead, he says "I want a dog." Hence irony - saying one thing, meaning another. Touching? It's fucking devastating. I can barely make it through without choking up.

And as a gay man, he knows the necessity of ironic cloaking devices as a strategy of survival in heteronormative society and as a way of minimizing the damage incurred in the brutal fuck now-pay later gay club scene where much of Introspective takes place (figuratively speaking but that's the only way to speak on this album). Saying "I want a dog" will insure he doesn't get hurt or laughed at by the party animal. But eventually, he'll have to risk "I want to be your dog" in order to, in Xgau's words, "not only be ravished but ravished exquisitely."

And the disco serves the same purpose on this most disco of their albums (even more disco than Disco or Disco 2). The eight, sixteen, thirty-two measures between verses makes it more difficult to follow a line of thought (this is particularly notable in the "Che Guevara's drinking tea" section of "Left To My Own Devices") and easier for the DJ to mix it out into another track. And because the album cuts come club-ready, they have been fashioned as much (probably even more) for dancing in clubs as for listening at home which means dancers will be further distracted from what Neil is saying/singing. But maybe, just maybe it'll click with one of them and Neil can take him home...forever.

Prophylactic disco sheathed in a variety of barriers for an age when we started to watch gay men all fall down.

"Che Guevara's drinking tea

Isn't it "Che Guevara and Debussey to a disco beat"?

(Then again, I clearly hear Introspective way differently from you in general, so why should that line be any different?) (Which is in no way to besmirch the particular way you hear it, by the way.)

Irony I like on my album pick, Randy Newman:
"Roll With the Punches"
"I Want You to Hurt Like I Do"

Irony I don't like on same:
"Masterman and Baby J"

Not really irony:
"It's Money that Matters"

Not sure if it's irony but definitely the most affecting thing on there:
"Follow the Flag"

Oh wait, he drinks tea later, doesn't he? Never mind.

He doesn't want a freakin' dog. He wants a husband! And therein lies the irony, the distance. Here is a man who in the song immediately preceding this one is trying to figure out how to love (and even hate) if he were left to his own devices. As a man of privilege who gets up at half past ten (bet it was even later than that) and doesn't have to compete, he doesn't even know what his own devices are. He hasn't really needed to know because he's always been able to pick up the best from the party animal.

Exquisitely argued! If we place "I Want A Dog" in context (i.e. after "Left To My Own Devices" and what we know about Tennant's development on those lovey-dovey albums of the nineties which still, as you suggest, hide plenty of fear and trembling), this makes total sense.

But the song still works as a flat declaration of intent: he wants to hear a dog bark when he gets back to his small flat even though it doesn't mitigate the loneliness. I mean, yeah, this IS a cloaking device, in the same way that "Opportunities" (this is occuring to me now so bear wiht me) hides Tennant's homo lust behind all-too-conventional eighties plutocratic tropes.

Right, I could see what you're saying. A dog will do...for now. (Cats do help with loneliness, btw, even though they scratch the fuck all over my habitat and get VERY fat.)

"She thinks I still care." (George Jones)

OTM. But country often has an odd relationship to irony where often the title or main sentiment means one thing but the next line or verses mean another, e.g. Tim McGraw's "She'll Have You Back." Gene Pitney did this too with "Every Little Breath I Take." Maybe that's why he recorded an album with George Jones. There are tons of examples; I'm just blanking right now.

More irony:

Kym Sims: "Take My Advice"

Dolly Parton: "To Daddy" = another example. Maybe even her "Travelin' Man." And I always thought there was a ton of rage rather than just mere begging somewhere underneath "Jolene."

so is Scott saying that listeners perceive irony within a piece of music whether the musicians intend it to be there or not?

I'm a little drunk, will need to look at this stuff again tomorrow (and was hoping there would be a major pet shop boys detour here, which there appears to be!)... but yeah, I think that's what I'm saying, however clumsily.

jesus. i have to work for a night and come back and an innocuous lil comment i made in defense of mudhoney sprung a leak! i'm way too tired right now to reply (and if I ever do it might be in the form of a separate post titled "100 earnest '80s bands (even though chuck thinks they're way more cool than the 100 crappy garage bands u like honkey)".

but for now, i just want to point to one mudhoney track: untitled track #1 from "piece of cake"

TECHNO-OOOOOOOO

now that's parody, true. but at 10 seconds long, i would posit it's ironic parody.

(and was hoping there would be a major pet shop boys detour here, which there appears to be!)...

Isn't there always???