Why such a hatred for songcraft and production values?

i like my songs lofi and crappy!

songcraft and production values are seen as "learned" and thereby "inauthentic" skills

see fundMENTALISM thread re: The Devil's Music (aka boogie beat)

whose hatred is this we're talking about?

For some of us who came up on punk British people between roughly 25-37, in particular, the DIY ethos -- learn three chords, go form a band -- is intrinsic to the democratic ethos of the music.

y/n

that new band, Matos, the Straw Rockists

xpost -- I'm skeptical of those few people for whom the audible DIY feel is part of some "democratic ethos" or some system of principles, but I completely understand the other 90% who just get a sort of personal thrill and interest out of music that feels particularly handmade, unmediated, direct, whatever. (It's hard to find the right words for it, but I think lots of people of lots of stripes can get a kick out of hearing something that feels like it's coming from that level -- not as a matter of politics, but because it can be just interesting and fun.)

Learned skills are the best and most important skills. If you don't grow up doing music, stay away from doing music.

The true genius of everything lies within learned skills.

It has to be combined with some artistic idea though, in that you are supposed to make music that you like yourself, rather than music you expect lots of people to like so that you can make yourself a lot of $$$$$ from it.

So, do you guys think this going to be the worst thread ever, or just in the top five?

Already in top 5

Depends whether 5teve G0ldberg posts on it or not.

For some of us who came up on punk British people between roughly 25-37, in particular, the DIY ethos

I'm American and 40, and since i was in high school in the early 1980s, not the late 70s, you need to shift your ages up in general.

But of course part of the reason I framed the question is the way is because I wonder whether this is primarily about being of a particular age. I suspect there are people much older and much younger with my sensibility.

What is meant by "songcraft"? Andy Partridge is a tremendous songwriter, that's bad? Production, however, can mean many things. Sticking with my example, it's clear from Andy Partridge's Fuzzy Warbles series that many of his songs lost something moving from a demo in his shed to a full-blown studio. Sometimes less is more.

Having said that, I think _The Big Express_ is flawless, production and all.

So, do you guys think this going to be the worst thread ever, or just in the top five?

I will in the future understand that all questions on this Board are rhetorical questions, and how dare anyone think they might be topics of conversation among people who "love music".

BEAT THAT DEAD HORSE DUDE.

hallo i have posted to this thread

ONE STEP CLOSER.

TRIFECTA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Good work here, people, well done.

Carry on.

What the fuck did he mean by "complacency"? And actually, professionalism.

The Sex Pistols were professional, touring musicians were they not?

is there a way we can trap st3ve and louis in this thread like zod at the end of superman

What the fuck did he mean by "complacency"? And actually, professionalism.

You could ask him. But under the cirumstances, I'm sure there's no point. Sorry to have disturbed so many, when they were so at peace.

is there a way we can trap st3ve and louis in this thread like zod at the end of superman

well done, you've just spoilt the joke. i might even address the thread topic now, heaven forbid, and it'll ALL BE YOUR FAULT.

I will in the future understand that all questions on this Board are rhetorical questions, and how dare anyone think they might be topics of conversation among people who "love music".

don't lose hope Kenny - people are being snarky because this type of question has traditionally been the soapbox subject of several erm, strident and mildly irritating regulars. Search for threads with "Geir" or "Geir Hongro" and you'll see what I mean

don't lose hope Kenny - people are being snarky because this type of question has traditionally been the soapbox subject of several erm, strident and mildly irritating regulars.

I'm sure that's true. I'm even sure that I'm capable of being a strident and/or mildly irritating regular. But if the solution to that problem is to silence threads and/or dialogue, then perhaps I'm better off somewhere else. In any event, I certainly take it that getting me to go somewhere else is the point of the responses above.

You'd think simply not reading and not engaging with things that bore you would be an adequate alternative.

if the solution to that problem is to silence threads and/or dialogue

The solution to that problem is for you to locate where this discussion has happened before and hop onto that boat, not get self-righteous when everyone mocks you for taking your dingy into well-charted waters.

listen to big hoos, for he speaks from experience

So, do you guys think this going to be the worst thread ever, or just in the top five?

Hmm. Do I get partial credit/blame for such a milestone, since the original question (tacked on to the end of the Billy Joel thread) was mine? And it might've seemed a little less soapboxish in its original context. And I'm just now reflecting that, duh, songcraft and production values can be mutually exclusive and at odds from one another. Original heartfelt demo vs. big shiny cleaned-up hit single?

[To clarify my personal opinion: Songcraft, whether learned or intuitive, can be useful or valuable or enjoyable for its own sake but not NECESSARY. Ditto production values, with that added proviso that they can occasionally make a piece of music easier to hear.]

The solution to that problem is for you to locate where this discussion has happened before

And the solution to that problem is to link to the relevant threads, not to try to chase new people off the board. Unless, of course, that is the point.

OMG they killed Kenny

And the solution to that problem is to link to the relevant threads, not to try to chase new people off the board. Unless, of course, that is the point.

link to relevant threads

I am well aware of the search function. I have used it often. There is of course no obvious set of search terms to be searching for.

Songcraft, whether learned or intuitive, can be useful or valuable or enjoyable for its own sake but not NECESSARY

ALL.SONGS.ARE.CRAFTED.

and they all involve knowledge that has been learned, whether learned in music school or by trial-and-error while intuiting music in your bedroom.

and they all all involve intuition, whether combined with expensive lessons from the berklee school of music or not.

kthxbye.

any time you hear an indie fux going on about songcraft you can almost guarantee they're shit at it

search terms you CAN search on:

steely dan
fleetwood mac
justin timberlake
beyonce
toby keith

...and any other number of artists whose work falls into what i think most people would agree involves loads and loads of old-fashioned production/writing/etc skillz, and who are celebrated for said skillz by the ILM massive.

listen to big hoos, for he speaks from experience

-- max, Tuesday, 31 July 2007 00:05

lol

Music is not necessarily SONGS!

steely dan
fleetwood mac
justin timberlake
beyonce
toby keith

But I didn't start a thread on any of those artists, nor intend to.

Look, I didn't start a thread with the assumption that no one had ever discussed about the topic before. And I didn't start a thread with the assumption that everyone would want to read it, or give a shit. I started a thread quoting something that had been written TODAY, with the assumption that that writer might want to respond (and indeed, s/he has), and so might some others. That's all.

Those of you who have cluttered up the thread with your own disdain for someone else's conversation haven't done anyone a favor. And if you're what I can expect to find on ILM, then no, I don't belong here, and I thank you for that information.

I think you should start a myspace blog, and title it "Rockism 102".

dude, your problem is that we don't hate songwriting or good production. this is some straw man bullshit.

myonga: yes indeed, of course, but i think it's fair to say that the question at the top of the thread, and all responses herein, are implicitly about songs.

kenny: correct me if i'm wrong about that.

kenny also: i'm not suggesting you wanted to, or should have, started a thread about any of those artists. i am, however saying, that by starting a thread on this board called "why such a hatred for..." you seem to be assuming/implying that this board in general has expressed a hatred for that kind of stuff. and the snarky responses are various people's ways of saying you're somewhat off in that assumption.

My legitimate response has been drowned by the angry mob... *sniff*

You'd think simply not reading and not engaging with things that bore you would be an adequate alternative.

no but see it's fun to make fun of silly people and their silly questions! no one hates songcraft dude! I mean, do you have any examples at all?

There's that one guy.

Do you mean this guy Dan?

YES EXACTLY

That guy has a big mouth

Somewhere or other Pashmina says songcraft is overrated (or something like that) but even that doesn't mean he hates it. Unfortunately, I can't remember the context.

WTF?

Do not click on that link if you are at work!

What are you talking about? It's a picture of a bunch of Elvis impersonators!

dude, i think you clicked the wrong link. maybe you should clit again

click again, click again, whoops!

It's a picture of a bunch of Elvis impersonators!

A++

rofllor

"Viva Las Vulvas"

I was tempted for a moment, but then the thought of seeing those pools of cum again changed my mind.

Somewhere or other Pashmina says songcraft is overrated

And I think I commented something like: "No it's not." Such elevated debate.

ILXors hate Songcraft cuz they spent all their skill points on Journalism

"Do not click on that link if you are at work!"

Rockist has an "eye for trouble".

dude i hayt u

OK, now this is becoming one of the best threads ever.

http://www.bmi.com/images/musicworld/l/los_lonely_boys_1_500.jpg

http://www.bmi.com/images/musicworld/t/they_might_be-giants_1_500.jpg

no but see it's fun to make fun of silly people and their silly questions! no one hates songcraft dude! I mean, do you have any examples at all?

Well, I suppose I'm an example, given the comments I made at the top of this thread. This comment demonstrates primarily that you feel free to make fun of "silly" questions when you have no idea who asks them or what their context is. Thanks, once again, for helping me to understand how things work here.

wvs bro, toughen up! people here get a lot bitchier than this for less reason all the damn time.

^

hi dere kenny welcome to the internet

This comment demonstrates primarily that you feel free to make fun of "silly" questions when you have no idea who asks them or what their context is.

dood no offense but youre one to talk about not knowing "context"

starcraft > songcraft

/nerd

http://www.bagatellen.com/archives/jandek-head.jpg

myonga: yes indeed, of course, but i think it's fair to say that the question at the top of the thread, and all responses herein, are implicitly about songs.

Fair enough.

starcraft > songcraft

TRUE

http://ps2media.gamespy.com/ps2/image/article/662/662514/starcraft-ghost-20051028031403457.jpg

OH MAN GUYS! I FOUND THE COOLEST PICTURE EVER!

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/tapestore/police_dog.jpg

OHSHIT!!@ WRONG WON

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/tapestore/dog.jpg

I WROTED YOU A SONG BUT I BLASTED IT!

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/3/38/Starcraft_Firebat.jpg

WITCHCRAFT: PUNISHABLE BY BURNING
SONGCRAFT: PUNISHABLE BY I'LL FUCKIN', I'LL FUCKIN' SEW YOUR ASSHOLE SHUT, AND KEEP FEEDIN' YOU, AND FEEDIN YOU--

Method Man, you have the prescription for the daily blues.

This thread is too loud and flat.

Lord Custos explains Rockism

For many of us, rock and roll is about something other than professionalism and complacency.

Why do you equate "professionalism" with "complacency"? Is professionalism meant as an insult here? It seems to me that the DIY aesthetic that you like prides itself on independence and the ability to take care of all aspects of one's art. This is professionalism. From Minor Threat and the SST bands to Jandek, from Big Black to Guided By Voices, it seems like the presentation of one's own music on one's own terms requires a fairly high degree of professionalism.

Conversely, why must "professional" sounds be "complacent"? Were the Beatles and the Beach Boys and Phil Spector complacent? They were using the best and newest gear available, the best studio musicians money could buy, and taking their own sweet time. Please tell me exactly what is complacent about the creations of studio-happy artists like Fleetwood Mac, The Clash, ABBA, Timbaland, Dr. Dre, Lee Scratch Perry, etc. etc. etc.?

If professionalism does = complacency, do you mean to imply that amateurism = adventurousness and unpredictablity? I don't think this holds up. How many indie and hardcore bands out there ALL SOUND ALIKE? They play by the lo fi rule book and they are the very definition of complacent.

In fact, self-consciously lo-fi production is inarguably more complacent than high production. By definition, high production values are constantly changing with technology - the bar is constantly being raised.

Meanwhile, lo-fi is usually traditional. You know exactly what you're in for sonically from the first note. It doesn't stick its neck out or strive. There is no risk because there is no attempt to excel or change the form. It worships safety and refuses to break a sweat.

Recap: High production values are always changing. Lo-fi values are always the same. Which one is complacent?

We like plenty of bands that exhibit songcraft and high production values, but not because they exhibit these things; and we often prefer bands that don't exhibit songcraft and high production values in any noteworthy way because they are -- sometimes -- far more exciting and full of ideas then bands that do.

Can you define what you mean by "songcraft"?

Can you give me an example of an interesting artist that doesn't "exhibit songcraft... in any noteworthy way"?

By "songcraft" do you mean traditional song-writing skills, like McCartney or Gershwin or Costello?
If so, this confuses me because lo-fi heroes like Alex Chilton, Paul Westerberg, Steve Malkmus or (especially) Robert Pollard are lauded by their fans for their ability to write "perfect pop songs"... in fact, it seems like these guys often consciously use rawer production to consciously counteract the sweetness and accessability of their melodies and hooks.

Isn't one of the arguments for lo-fi that it is purer songcraft than highly produced music? That the songs are somehow more pure and authentic - closer to the artist's honest voice - when they are not filtered through the collaborative studio process? I don't buy this, but I understand it. But it seems to me that you are throwing out both production values and songwriting as uninteresting and unpunk.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding. If you're talking instead about artists who don't work in such traditional forms - like say I dunno Can, The Monks, Coltrane, The Boredoms or Battles - I'd still argue that they exhibit "songcraft" in a noteworthy way, if not a more noteworthy way than those who write songs within established frameworks.

RECAP: Please explain your preference for non-noteworthy songwriting.

For some of us who came up on punk, in particular, the DIY ethos -- learn three chords, go form a band -- is intrinsic to the democratic ethos of the music.

What is so punk or DIY about insisting that people should do things the same way they did a generation ago?

If you're only allowed to do things one way, it doesn't seem like a very democratic ethos.

If you're basing your opinions on a musical movement that happened 30 years ago, it doesn't seem like a very punk ethos.

Technology now allows people to make music themselves at home cheaply without having to learn 3 chords at all - or limit themselves to 3 chords, or even be in a band.

And beyond all that - does the "ethos" by which art is created really make it good and/or interesting? I like a nice democratic ethos as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I need to hear it reflected in the music I hear. If I was a vegetarian, I wouldn't feel the need to only read books by vegetarian authors.

Finally, your DIY 3-chords-and-a-band argument doesn't just shut yourself out from highly produced glossy pop - it also excludes classical, jazz, and all kinds of traditional music from all over the world. Which is fine and all, it's your funeral, but I don't see much value in it.

*applause*

fritz patient enough to bring the smackdown

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/edwardiii/tmbgjkyc.jpg

Recap

hahaha

Does this come in a PowerPoint version as well?

One of the most DIY albums ever recorded was Boston's debut (check the credits-Scholz plays and writes nearly everything) and it has both songcraft and high production values.

an inconvenient fritz xpost

songcraft can suck my DICK

j/k ; )

M@tt He1ges0n, lover of professional, complacent blowjobs

all my BJs are produced by Jeff Lynne

so they're extra shiny!

sweet, sweet is the night

*OUCH!*

"don't worry we can fix that in protools"

are the recaps dickish? i was just kinda trying to stay on point.

fritz, I just thought it was kind of funny. I thought you were being intentionally funny, like: "In case you missed the points I just made." It seems more like something I would come across in a business management book (not that I'd be likely to be reading one) or a job hunting book.

But it's also not a bad idea. The way just about all of us read things here at one time or another, it doesn't hurt to underscore one's key points.

It comes from arguing with Custos. Not that it worked.

Oh I'm sure Custos awarded you a mod up +1 insightful or something nonetheless.

Those were the days!

Did we actually chase him off?

I mean I don't like it when dudes get badgered away from the board, but if he didn't have the stomach for this little ribbing, I can't imagine he would have lasted long anyway.