Taking Sides: Tori Amos vs. Elliott Smith

smith was at least soulfully ugly

While I think her later stuff devolved into self-parody and incoherent whimsy, I still like "Under the Pink" and "Boys for Pele".

both SO Good, as well as Little Earthquakes. after Choirgirl it was shit

he's prolly more consistent/respectable than her, looking at the big picture. ::shrugs::

how many albums did he come out with>?

Five alive, two posthumous.

elliott smith was one of the greatest songwriters of the 90s.

tori amos was/is...well...erratic at best.

Elliott was a genius. Tori (Myra) is just unnecessary given that Kate Bush is a billion times better.

"Tori (Myra) is just unnecessary given that Kate Bush is a billion times better."

Argh kill kill kill this ridiculous argument already.

that argument doesn't really anger or convince me, it just strikes me as too convenient. i see some similarities, but many, many distinctions as well.

Wouldn't a comparison between ES and Mary Lou Lord or even Holly Golightly be more appropriate.

Yeah, Ms. Misery, probably this isn't the best comparison. I take it you're suggesting Smith is a less major figure? It didn't seem that way in the mid 90s (Oscars, critical coverage, etc.), but I wanted to see how things turned out here.

I'm fascinated by the lack of respect for Tori Amos, even though I'm not a big fan. Usually what I read is that she's "shrill" or "overly sentimental". These are negatives generally applied to females. I read a really insightful comment here on ILM by Tim Finney about "Tear In Your Hand" that changed the way I listen to that song, so I know the hate isn't uniform. But mostly on ILM it was comments about how only females listen to her, and men get dragged unwillingly to her concerts out of duty to their women. I thought it was a parody of typical gender roles, and maybe it was, but I don't think so.

Maybe comparing Tori Amos to Trent Reznor would be better.

Smith is a less major figure

Haha not all! I really don't think Tori Amos is as relevant as he his. Just thought the other two matched his style better. Maybe I missed the point of comparison here.

that stuff about only females and females drag the men is true for many female singer/songwriter types.

also, plenty of artists are overly sentimental and shrill. that's not the problem. the lack of respect for tori amos is due to: her extremely affected vocal stylings, her nonsensical lyrics and philosophies and later on, her utterly bad songcraft.

Yeah, Ms. Misery, I was aiming at a bunch of comparisons but wanted to see how things came out. But a big one was trying to get at some questions about gender in pop/rock without being too upfront about it. In particular I'm really interested in whether, and in what ways, women songwriters are held in lower critical esteem than male ones. Is it just because of "utterly bad songcraft" as Surmounter says, or is it because of something else? And I though Elliott Smith might make a good comparison because reviews often talk about his masterful way with melody, etc.---even though XO is full of Beatles ripoffs (maybe that's true for other records of his too, I don't know them as well). So why does he get such good press, when Tori Amos doesn't? So I wanted to see what people thought.

XO is full of Beatles ripoffs (maybe that's true for other records of his too, I don't know them as well)

Figure 8 more so than XO.

I've never really listened to Tori Amos so don't know. But I think Mary Lou Lord, a friend and sometimes collaborator of Elliot's, fits the bill as a good songwriter.

elliott gets better press because his music is more affecting, powerful, interesting, consistent, coherent, and most importantly enjoyable than anything tori amos has released. he had a natural gift for songwriting and he applied it with subtlety (admittedly often less so on a lyrical level) and grace.

tori amos, for all her talents and ability, is wildly inconsistent, and much less of a pleasure to listen to than the late mr. smith.

i don't know Euler ur line of questioning is somewhat vague. surely there are plenty of female artists who are very respected. and a lot of male ones who aren't. but to go along with it, i would say an answer would be the emotionality. i would venture to guess that a lot of people (men?) aren't comfortable listening to the "weak" emotionality that seems to be conveyed by a lot of female singer/songwriters.

but to start on this train of thought is begging for error, b/c it's too broad.

Again, with ES vs TA, it's not so much how they're both good at melody, or how they're both sentimental and why does one get this and not the other - it's more about the ins and outs of the presentation. tori amos is almos a skit of herself, she's so affected - so contrived. elliot smith seems much more organic to me.

and i might add, that if i'd heard kate bush's 'jig of life' without knowing who it was, i might have thought it was tori, save for kate's much better songwriting.

surmounter is right about elliott being more organic. humble sincerity is very much what he was about

also, Tori talks about how spirits visit her head and write her songs for her or something (fuck if i can keep it straight). it's just begging for an SNL piece.

--and her VOICE! her voice in that song is amazing. Jig Of Life is mindblowing.

yep, agreed :) excellent song.

Lex has been very quiet lately hasn't he?

=) i remember b4 i like really understood the 2nd half of Hounds of Love, this was the song that stood out to me at first

honestly i've been wondering (re Lex)...

elliott smith always struck me as boring and conventional. that might be called "organic" by some but a neatly structured song is only so by convention, isn't it? smith.. it's nice, it's catchy.. ok then

i like tori, she's weird.

smith i rly feel like u can hear the sadness oozing out of his pores. usually this irritates me but with him, it actually worked. it didn't feel put on, it felt like he just had to put it somewhere: on a record.

haha yeah, the record (hol) takes a major left turn after 'and dream of sheep'. i still haven't got my head around some of it.

come on daria-g, elliott 'boring'? each to their own i guess.

charlie it took me so long cuz the hits on side 1 are so friggin catchy u kno? but now every moment of side 2 is endlessly fascinating for me. Hello, Earth is untouchable.

hahah. 'waking the witch' freaks the shit out of me! certainly poles apart from the playful energy driving the title track or 'the big sky'.

omg yes. and i have to come to SO LOVE Under Ice

"... on the cold water... it's meeeee...."

:-)

elliott smith always struck me as boring and conventional. that might be called "organic" by some but a neatly structured song is only so by convention, isn't it? smith.. it's nice, it's catchy.. ok then

His lyrics burrow their way into your soul. This cannot be underrated.

i feel like the Big Sky is totally the song my mom would do the stepper to when i was like 12

hahah, yeah 'under ice' - so theatrical. that whole stop-start vocal style kills me.

and 'the big sky', so much fun.

and i agree about elliott's lyrics completely defying convention. 'alameda' for instance used to touch me on an extremely personal level.

yes the stop-start w/ the way she works that interval is NICE

over here....over here....OVER HERE

kate bush > tori

elliott smith > tori

kate bush vs. elliott....thats a trickier one

kate bush vs elliot should never again be suggested ever!

haha over here :-)

i dunno.. i have a sampler disc around somewhere from dgc with tracks off all his records up to XO. will listen again. i think it's just a matter of taste and i am not a big beatles fan if that makes any sense

Well, to expand on my lazy Kate Bush > Tori Amos comment, what I mean is that I see Tori Amos as striving to reach a similar goal as Kate. However, in my eyes Kate Bush basically achieved perfection on The Dreaming, Hounds of Love, and I'm in the middle of deciding possibly the same about Aerial. Essentially, Kate Bush ruined Tori Amos because despite their differences I can only hear Tori as a second-rate Kate in every aspect of her songwriting.

It just annoys me as an argument because the two seem so different to me that the comparison seems to underrate what makes Kate interesting as much as what makes Tori interesting.

Again, I hear as much or more in common between Tori and Stevie Nicks, or Tori and Sinead O'Connor, as between Tori and Kate.

Tori and Stevie especially. Compare "Rhiannon" and "Cornflake Girl", or "Dreams" and "Silent All These Years", or "Silver Springs" and "Putting the Damage On", or "Gypsy" and "A Sorta Fairytale".

I challenge people to find Kate/Tori comparisons that work as well as the above.

What the hell is this really about?

Fuck you, Euler.

Well, it was mostly Kate's demos that sealed the deal for me. A lot of the stuff on Cathy's Home Demos/Pheonix Demos is much more similar to Tori than the songs on the official releases. I remember looking up some Tori Amos videos on youtube and thinking "this stuff doesn't even stand up to Kate's demos". Plus Kate was like 17-19 when she recorded those. I'm not saying Tori Amos is a horrible artist or anything but I certainly don't hold her up to the same level as Elliott Smith, especially when someone like Kate Bush exists to raise the bar higher (in my humble opinion). I hope that makes sense.

personal, possibly completely off-base, theory of mine: people defend Elliott Smith's musicianship so they don't have to defend how much they identify with his pain/happiness (yes, he has written some happy songs).

I really love Elliott Smith, and I've always been baffled by this because if I really step back and listen to his music, I don't really think he was all that outstanding. He had a natural ear for pretty melodies, but I think so much of this is a product of his Beatles-worship anyway. If you just put on his music and don't pay any attention to what he's singing, it all sounds pretty samey and I think this is pretty much why some people can find him immensely boring. But once you listen to his lyrics and his delivery, good lord, does it cut you right to the bone.

Never really listened to Tori, but I've heard a bunch of her songs - a few are great and there's at least one terrible one. But none of the ones I've heard are as good as anything Kate Bush has ever written.

I love Elliott Smith.