The 15th P&J Singles Poll!

Bottom five were video picks.

You know, I do the same thing everytime I first enter these polls: I take a very quick glance at the list, make a judgement, then (sometimes--not always) look back through the list more carefully to see if my judgment is anything close to accurate.

Bear in mind then that I haven't moved into the third phase of my program on this one, but at first glance, this list is yawn-worthy. I actually find the '93 albums list a little more interesting--I mean, at least as a list, if not as stuff I'd actually want to listen to.

"Cantaloop" is the worst song ever recorded.

Tough choice between "If" and "Show Me Love."

There's about 18 or 19 good singles on there, by my reckoning--which seems to be about standard for a fairly average year. Probably not as good a list as the last couple have been, sure, no argument there.

I voted for "Go West," which pretty much towers over everything else released that year as far as I'm concerned.

xp

Hey Jealousy. Has aged really well.

"Rebirth of Slick," right now.

Worst song on the list is goddamn Soul Asylum's bid for Winona Ryder recognition.

Missing:

Duran Duran - "Come Undone"
U2 - "Stay (Faraway, So Close!)" -- by far their best nineties ballad.

Over Ultraviolet? That's my tops.

Classic 1994 SNL commercial:

Patrick Stewart [with arms around Salt and Pepa]: "Hello, I'm Patrick Stewart, and I'll be hosting Saturday Night Live this week with special musical guests Salt N' Peppah!"
Salt: "Oh, Patrick! You make ME want to Shoop!"
Stewart: "Ha ha--Make it SO!"

Ice Cube: "It Was a Good Day"/"Check Yo Self" (Priority)

well you can trust me not to think
and not to sleep around

I guess "Whatta Man" was '94?

Voted for "Oh Carolina"* (apparently a cover version, though I still don't think I've ever heard the original).

First-level Also rans:

Dr. Dre: "Nuthin' but a `G' Thang" (Interscope)
Radiohead: "Creep" (Capitol) *
Urge Overkill: "Sister Havana" (Geffen) *

Second-level also-rans:

The Breeders: "Cannonball" (4AD/Elektra) *
Naughty by Nature: "Hip Hop Hooray" (Tommy Boy) [didn't like this much at first, but I do now]
Tag Team: "Whoomp! There It Is" (Life)
Snow: "Informer" (EastWest) *

Third-level also-rans:

Cypress Hill: "Insane in the Brain" (Ruffhouse/Columbia)
Pet Shop Boys: "Go West" (EMI)
Blind Melon: "No Rain" (Sam Bayer)

Curious about:

Tony Toni Toné: "If I Had No Loot" (Wing)

* - I still own these on 7-inch singles, fwiw.

I guess "Whatta Man" was '94?

Likely. Still, it only made it onto the list as a video, not as a single.

Chuck, the original version of "Oh Carolina" can be found on the great Story of Jamaican Music: Tougher Than Tough box set.

A song I hate:
R.E.M.: "Everybody Hurts" (Warner Bros.)

Two songs I don't hate:
R.E.M.: "Man on the Moon" (Warner Bros.)
U2: "Numb" (Kevin Godley)

Two songs that run together in my mind (though I'm sure they really have nothing to do with each other):
Digable Planets: "Rebirth of Slick (Cool Like Dat)" (Pendulum)
US3: "Cantaloop" (Blue Note)

Four songs that I probably still underrate, and still don't particularly care that I do:
Salt-n-Pepa: "Shoop" (Next Plateau)
Janet Jackson: "That's the Way Love Goes" (Virgin)
Janet Jackson: "If" (Virgin)
Salt-n-Pepa: "Whatta Man" (Next Plateau) [which I realize isn't up there, but still]

Wow on Juliana Hatfield hitting the top ten. It was big on college radio, but still!

gin blossoms but almost pickt creep/ttt/show me love

What's with the Gin Blossoms love, guys? Just curious.

Four songs that I probably still underrate, and still don't particularly care that I do:
Janet Jackson: "That's the Way Love Goes" (Virgin)
Janet Jackson: "If" (Virgin)

Not big on Janet in general, or is this just a more specific aversion?

the Gin Blossoms song is pretty good, the only one of their series of singles (besides the one co-written by Marshall Crenshaw) with any urgency, although I didn't like it much at the time, actually preferring "Until I Fall Away."

Two songs that run together in my mind (though I'm sure they really have nothing to do with each other):

Not so weird, Chuck, considering both sample Blue Note records (Art Blakey and Herbie Hancock, respectively).

Hey Jealousy fucking rules. IT IS A KILLER JAM, NO DOUBT.

-- Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, November 10, 2004 5:13 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Link

Not big on Janet in general, or is this just a more specific aversion?

The former; never really got the appeal of her lack of a singing voice; it just seems so....nothing to me. I like "Black Cat" (a probably a couple other songs here and there), though. (And i LOVE "Centipede" by Rebbie.)

What's with the Gin Blossoms love, guys?

The original songwriter, the guy who killed himself, was really talented and had a way with hooks. They please me the same way that really good REO Speedwagon does. Ya can't live on Battles and Diplo alone, people.

One "Shoop" for me. Did you know MTV censored the word "retard" from this song? Ah, the 1990s! You gotta love 'em (right, Xhuxk?).

M.I.A.:
New Order: "Regret" (Qwest/Warner Bros. 1993) - I know a group of monks who play the first eleven seconds of this song over and over in order to see the face of God. And it works. Last saw Him just this Tuesday. Doin' fine.
Jaydee: "Plastic Dreams" (Epic 1993) - The alpha and omega of electronica. Hell, of all of dance music in the 1990s. Too much electronic dance music of the era had top/bottom problems. Either the beat was slammin but the top was dull or non-existent (buckets of jungle/dnb, first Daft Punk album) or the top was multifarious, fascinating but the beat was ignored (FSOL, second Daft Punk album). For the ten-plus minutes of "Plastic Dreams," DJ Robin "Jaydee" Albers went nutso on his Hammond B-3 (or simulation thereof) over a beat that could mobilize armies. And all without a nanosecond of human voice. As usual with these kinds of masterpieces, it seemed so easy. Why couldn't other electrnonicats get their top/bottom shit together so inexhaustibly? And so fecundly. It was remixed to death (I remember David Morales' fondly), gave birth to "The Cha-Cha Slide," was thrown underneath Armand Van Helden's "You Don't Even Know Me" (and god knows what else), etc. Every single time I spun it, someone came up to the booth to ask what I was spinning. Every single time without fail. And these were mostly "can you play some Madonna?" gay guys beholden to the human voice. Christ, even Simon Reynolds likes it (thought it would've been a bit too Stax for him). The omega and alpha of electronica.
Gypsy: "I Trance You" (23rd Precinct 1993) - Made hay of the distinction between top and bottom. If this was progressive house, why were so many people ripping on it? Absolutely gorgeous stuff.
Biz Markie: "Let Me Turn You On" (Cold Chillin' 1993) - Those monks mentioned above told me that God looks an awful lot like Biz Markie. Rap's greatest karaoke moment because it refuses to camouflage its karaokeness.
MC Lyte: "Ruffneck" (First Priority 1993) - If The Misfits were hip-hop.
Smooth Touch: "House of Love" (Strictly Rhythm 1993) - Slammin. Two songs in one. There's every reason to believe Basement Jaxx heard this before laying down "Jump 'n' Shout."
Atlantic Ocean: "Waterfalls" (Pegasus 1993) - Ok my copy of Handraizer on Moonshine got stolen. Who can trade/YSI/whatever please?
Madonna: "Deeper and Deeper" (Maverick/Warner Bros. 1993) - Although Janet's album from this year was some intense, firecrackin' shit. "If" - forgot about the existence of this song until just now. I played the fuck out of it in 1993.
Anquette: "Janet Reno" (Luke 1993) - Ah, the 1990s! You gotta love 'em (right, Xhuxk?).

P.S. Salt-N-Pepa Featuring En Vogue: "Whatta Man" (EastWest 1993) appeared on both the singles and video list of 1994.

Worse songs than Soul Asylum's bid for Winona Ryder recognition (among others, I'm sure):

Porno for Pyros: "Pets" (Warner Bros.)
Belly: "Feed the Tree" (Sire/Reprise)
RuPaul: "Supermodel" (Tommy Boy)
Bjork: "Human Behavior" (Michelle Gondry)
Aerosmith: "Crying" (Marty Callner)

My favorite Duran Duran song ever (so I agree with Alfred about its missingness):

Duran Duran - "Come Undone"

Dean's List (Ho Hum, I'm sad to say, though I've never heard his #1, I don't think):

Jaydee: "Plastic Dreams" (Epic)
MC Lyte: "Ruffneck" (First Priority)
Salt-N-Pepa: "Shoop" (Next Plateau)
R.E.M.: "Man on the Moon" (Warner Bros.)
Ice Cube: "It Was a Good Day"/"Check Yo Self" (Priority)
Madonna: "Deeper and Deeper" (Maverick/Warner Bros.)
Run-D.M.C.: "Down With the King" (Profile)
Nirvana: "Heart-Shaped Box" (DGC)
Ice-T: "Gotta Lotta Love" (Sire/Warner Bros.)
Digital Underground: "Return of the Crazy One" (Tommy Boy)
Salt-N-Pepa Featuring En Vogue: "Whatta Man" (EastWest)
Cypress Hill: "Insane in the Brain" (Ruffhouse/Columbia)
Tony! Toni! Toné!: "Anniversary" (Wing)
The Breeders: "Cannonball" (4AD/Elektra)

Shit! How did "Regret" not make the final cut!

Kevin OTM about "Deeper and Deeper."

One thing I realize looking at this list and other years in and around this time: definitely not a big fan overall of r&b (and r&b-hip-hop crossovers like salt-n-pepa) from this era. A lot of it just sounds kind of stuffy to me, a bit forced in the "fun" department. To me there was a real upswing in quality later in the decade, but the early-mid-decade stuff seems kind of boring to me. Maybe it's the way it plays so much into soul conventions? (Like the Toni Tone single--which I ranked high at the time--with its soul horns and stuff?)

"Cannonball", for the crunch, and then "Nuthin' but a `G' Thang", "Sister Havana", and "It Was a Good Day"/"Check Yo Self". If "Regret" were there then it would top all of these.

I'm kinda surprised to see "Show Me Love" up there. Love the song. Whoever sounds like Zep nowadays should cover it. But who was voting for it?

And actually kinda surprised to see TTT up there too. Decent enough song. But it seems too R&B for P&J. Am I crass to assume that this is when gay and black voters started appearing in the poll?

Nah, I'm sure that has a little something to do with it, and that's a good thing--and I'm not saying there's too much r&b here. I'm saying that I overall am just not that fond of a lot of r&b from around this time. In retrospect. I liked most of it at the time.

I guess r&b gets a lot more exciting to me again once Timbaland enters the picture (though I didn't catch on to that stuff until it had already been around for a few years), and then Destiny's Child, etc.

"No Rain" is the worst song on here, people.

I think I might vote for "Insane In The Brain."

so much good stuff, though

I heard "No Rain" on the radio the other day in a coffee shop (probably first time in ten years)--thought it sounded good actually.

insane....insaaaaaaaaane...

amazing no one thought to mash it up with cypress hill now that I think about it.

I hated "Crying" when it was huge but I love it now

xp:

TTT made the album list too, didn't they? (And yeah, their presence surprises me, too. Were they ever considered, like a respectably rootsy r&b act by aging rock critics? Or were they more like a proto-D'Angelo/Jill Scott retro-soul deal? I know almost nothing by them, and might well find them irritating if I heardd more, though I definitely like "Little Walter.")

Not sure I get the rallying behind Robin S., either. Wasn't she just one more late house-going-pop diva, as humorless as Rozalla or whoever? (And not nearly as fun as Ce Ce Penniston?) I could be wrong, though. (Maybe she wasn't even considered house at all.)

Never got the "Show Me Love" either; it was female Haddaway.

It was between "Numb" and "Human Behavior" for me.

Very tempted by "It Was a Good Day," tho.

I like "Show Me Love" because the hooks are good and they go together well to my ears. No other agenda.

Tony Toni Toné was not just a rootsy r&b group -- they were a band that could jam (nine-minute proggish slow-jam "Anniversary") and they did uptempo hip-hop-inspired singles (this was before Raph Wiggins disappeared up his own butt) and they had two good singers...why do you have to be old+rootsy and/or black and/or gay to like that album? I don't rep for any of the rest of their records, but Sons of Soul is real good. (Xhuxk warning -- it's really really long so you won't be happy with its economy.)

P.S. Salt-N-Pepa Featuring En Vogue: "Whatta Man" (EastWest 1993) appeared on both the singles and video list of 1994.

Yer right, of cource, Kevin. And maybe I'm blinder than usual these days, but how come the single is credited to S&P whereas the video is credited to S&P/EV?

Wasn't Sons of Soul named #1 album by TIME magazine in 1993?

of course, that is...blind as a bat.

xp

TIME had an album of the year back in 1993?

xp

G Thang vs. Good Day vs. Cannonball vs. Everybody Hurts

ITS TRICKY

I voted 'Everybody Hurts' 'cause no one else will. It's a great example of what Stipe does best--take lyrics that are less-than-good for whatever reason (banality, nonsense, under-thinking, over-thinking--you can guess which one this is) and transform them through fantastic melody and just a massive vocal performance. Another good example is 'Don't Go Back to Rockville'--the lyrics of which would be strictly parodic and sort of mean in the hands of most everyone else--but Stipe is somehow able to wring pathos and emotion out of them.

Good point. I use to play "Everybody Hurts" (as well as much of the rest of AFTP) on guitar back-in-the-day; I remember it being really easy to play--even for a rank amateur like me.

I don't think that taking under-thought lyrics and then transforming them is what Stipe does best---I mean, that's a back-handed compliment if it's a compliment at all. "Everybody Hurts", if it works at all (it usually doesn't for me, even though I love that album), works because of the arrangement, including Stipe's vocal. I don't think "Don't Go Back To Rockville" is parodic at all: maybe it is for early REM, where that kind of emoting was pretty unusual ("Dad, this isn't country at all"), but that song was an overt attempt at a more direct lyric.

Yeah, I don't really get what's supposed to be parodic about "Don't Go Back To Rockville" (maybe my favorite R.E.M. song), either. And to my ears, "Everybody Hurts" just sounds like sincerity-flaunting mush. But I'm not going to claim I've ever studied them as closely as some people probably have.

"Walk The Night" is downright terrifying to me

Actually, lines like "I've got a rod beneath my coat/It's going to ram right down your throat" kind od crack me up, though maybe I'm too distanced from the sentiment to directly feel its terror. (He says immediately after moving Cruising to the top of his Netflix queue.). And sure, it's as threatening as any other song I've ever spun as a DJ. And hard. But that doesn't mean it can't be funny and celebratory and a party at the same time.

I don't think humor works very well on most dancefloors. It's just not suitable for the camp posing that goes on there.

And oh yeah, Kevin, I also meant to say above that this comment also makes me wonder why, if funny songs don't work on the house dancefloor, why you don't just play the funny ones at home (where house music has sounded good to me for two decades now) instead. But maybe that's twisting your point...

that's a back-handed compliment if it's a compliment at all.

It wasn't that I want to slag off Stipe's lyric-writing. I just figured the banality of the lyrics to "EH"--the "sincerity-flaunting mush" would be most people's objection to it. I'm only saying that the melody and the vocal performance are so moving to me that I don't care about the lyrics one bit.

that song was an overt attempt at a more direct lyric

See, this is why it seems parodic to me. Stipe very rarely wrote this sort of direct, vernacular, almost-narrative like lyric, and I hear it as a sort of self-conscious 'singing in character'. A wonderful song regardless.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Actually, lines like "I've got a rod beneath my coat/It's going to ram right down your throat" kind od crack me up, though maybe I'm too distanced from the sentiment to directly feel its terror.

Right, I hear ya. But for me the truly terrifying moment comes with that "dit-dit-dit-dit-doi-doo" harmonizing section. It's so incongruous that its bad decision goofiness registers as a sort blithe indifference to evil, like the end scene of Rosemary's Baby, quite possibly the most terrifying moment in English-speaking cinema. Imagine, um, being on your knees in the dank, dark basement of The Man Hole, random rod rammed down your throat, and then hearing those harmonies. It's like Ruth Gordon explaining Satanism in her matter of fact, meddling mother way.

He says immediately after moving Cruising to the top of his Netflix queue

Unqueue it. It's pond scum. Try Porn Theatre instead (the original French title is La chatte a deux tetes or The Two-Headed Pussy). It's my favorite film of the Aughties.

if funny songs don't work on the house dancefloor, why you don't just play the funny ones at home

I would if I knew of more than a handful. I'll seek out the ones you mentioned which I prolly have tucked away somewhere in digitalis. But I doubt they'll make me laugh as much Hoppy Potty's "Shpooky Potty" from Mad TV.

Another poll sabotage at number one?

Why wouldn't "G Thang" be #1?

Cuz no one said they were voting for it, including you.

Alright, point enough.

The Dr. Dre vote doesn't strike me as a sabotage type of vote--even if no one mentioned it, it's not surprising that it did well (as it should've--it's easily one of the best songs up there).

Well, apart from the no mentions, it's always made me sleepy. And it was a harbinger for some truly dull times in hip-hop. I still miss PE and the De La/PM Dawn/Digable heyday.

Okay, we're going to have to agree to disagree. G-funk > everything else.

Better than Wu-Tang Inc.? Better than Outkast? Fugees? Clipse? "Hustlin'?" Notorious? Um, Puff Daddy? (I guess some of those would count as G-Funk, no?)

Wu-Tang, maybe not. Outkast were totally influenced by Dre. Fugees, yes. Clipse, yes. "Hustlin'", I don't even rate. Biggie, I never could get into. Puffy, yes.

But other than maybe Wu, PE, and Outkast (who, now that I think of it, even had at least one of the same musicians who played on The Chronic play on Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik), g-funk 91-96 easily tops any of the other stuff you mentioned.

Maybe that's why it's Outkast's worst album.

Sorry, I'm being bitchy. I just have no time for slow gangstaisms. Either I need a PE whizzing through my hair or a Wu-Tang giving me some murk to work through for a lifetime. I already take too many naps as it is.

P.S. Weed fuckin' sucks!! Drugs are boring!

Lots of undierap >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g-funk

Right now, SPCM is probably the Outkast album I listen to most, and if you like, say Idlewild more than it, I have no help for you. Slow gangstaisms make the world go round.

PS: I've never smoked weed in my life, I don't see what that has to do with anything and I resent the insinuation. Fuck off.

xp: Undierap is the worst.

(Oh, and just to be clear, the "fuck off" has nothing to do with your musical taste, just your inaccurate personal attacks.)

What do you think of Parliament-Funkadelic, Ohio Players, etc.?

No, sweetz, it wasn't directed to you. The album in question is called The Chronic. On the CD itself, there's a big green leaf. Practically the entire genre runs on ganja fuel. Etc.

The music sounds like people on drugs, i.e. boring.

Idlewild was indeed crappy. But it's a toss up over which album is worse 4 me.

What do you think of Parliament-Funkadelic, Ohio Players, etc.?

Worship, like, etc.

Do you see an inconsistency there? (Not that musical taste is ever consistent or logical.)

I should say that beyond the languid funk (which is a big plus for me, your mileage varies apparently), I love The Chronic and SPCM, because the rhymes themselves are hooky as fuck. Like, having never made any effort to memorize either one, I could probably rap large portions of those records back at you verbatim.

(Sorry bout getting all up in arms about that misunderstanding, but that really looked like it was directed at me.)

Not ALL music by musicians in a karmacoma is boring. Wu-Tang were throwing spliffs to the audience last time I saw them so I know they indulge, for instance.

But I bet some of those early Funkadelic records would've been even more amazing with some clear-headed pruning. Although inconsistency is part of their charm, I suppose.

I don't think you exactly need to see the Wu handing drugs to their fans to understand that.

Re Funkadelic: That's probably true. I tend to like their 75-79 stuff better, and more toward the Parliament side, but I strongly doubt the later output was any less pharmaceutically influenced, if a bit less obviously so.

I always assumed "'G' Thang" would win, so I'm pretty much with Scott on that issue. Also, I'd say that it's probably one of the five best singles up there--even though, truth be told, it invariably bored me silly at the time. Oh, and, just in case it's an issue here, I've never partaken of the wacky tabacky either. (BTW, in retrospect, I kinda wish I had voted for "It Was a Good Day," which I imagined would come in second or so. Guess not.)

I've got the sampled keyboard riff in "G Thang" as my ringtone. It's awes.

Yeah, "G Thang" would have been somewhere between my second and fourth choice (see "first-level also-rans, way upthread.). And I generally hate lethargic '90s rap and pot-smoking music, and haven't personally indulged in the latter drug in years. (So I've never assumed I'd like the whole Chronic album, which I promise I'll try again some day, honest. Unless I don't.) Hell, I even think P-Funk and the Ohio Players (and Outkast) are sort of overrated (by, um, the people who happen to overrate them.) (which isn't to say P-Funk and the OPs didn't both put out genius stuff, just that they also both released plenty of crap that's a lot more boring than lots of people pretend -- often, yeah, in P-Funk's case especially, 'cause it's got way too high THC content.) Anyway, as for "Nuthin' But A G Thang," it's just a lovely song, is all. Don't think I was crazy about it when it came out, but now, to me, it feels like summertime. Video probably helped.

Both "G Thang" and "Today Was a Good Day" are pretty much inseparable from their videos for me; the image-selling apparatus of California hip-hop in those days was just a juggernaut.

(Also never especially considered the Digable/PM Dawn/De La era a "heyday," fwiw, but then I'm older-than-the-hills school. Definitely prefer "G Thang" to any De La or Digable of PM Dawn [or Tribe Called Qwest] tracks I've ever heard. Maybe better than any single track by Wu Tang, too, though I might have to think about that more before I really commmit to it.)

The albums tracks on The Chronic are generally a bit more high-strung than the singles would suggest. Good point about "G Thang"'s loveliness. I think I might even give the edge to "Good Day", which manages to pull the rare trick of being angry and lovely and paranoid and confused all at once, whereas "G Thang" heads a bit more straightforwardly for the pleasure receptors. Maybe that's just my ****ist side speaking, though.

I think the reason I've gotten so caught up in this is that I'm highly suspicious of those who only like "progressive" rap (not saying you are, Kevin, I don't know that much about your tastes) and to a lesser extent the purveyors of such. When I see people bigging up Digable/PM Dawn/De La (one of which I love, one of which I hate, one of which I'm ambivalent toward) at the expense of harder-edged rap, it kinda gets my goat.

For whatever it's worth, I never thought "It Was a Good Day" (much less "Check Yo'Self") had much of a tune (which, I don't care what anybody says, matters as much in hip-hop as anywhere else.) (But it's okay, I guess -- I'd probably give it a 7.0 or so out of 10. Though actually, it's another one of those songs I haven't listened to in forever. Maybe I'd like it more now. At the time, I always felt its video was way more compelling than the song itself.)

Naw, I loved it for years before ever seeing the vid. "Good Day" isn't as tuneful melodically as "G Thang" (it's pretty much a static two-bar loop, whereas "G Thang" is more varied) and doesn't have a proper hook like that song, but is a very tight piece of songcraft, nonetheless. Everything makes sense within (and supports) the logic of the song.

You're right about "Check Yo'Self", which isn't nearly as good.

But I bet some of those early Funkadelic records would've been even more amazing with some clear-headed pruning. Although inconsistency is part of their charm, I suppose.

Not that you would expect anything else from me, but that is TOTALLY wrong.

You mean to say that early Funkadelic is not inconsistent?

It's funny to read these initial "blah" reactions to "Nuthin' but a G Thang", because that was my reaction too. I thought Dre was a weak rapper (still do) but I also disliked Snoop's rap at first. But it was so ubiquitous among my wanna-be druggy fellow students at university that I got a contact-buzz from it, and went on to love Snoop (even by the time of "Doggystyle", which I've always enjoyed way more than "The Chronic"). Although "Deeeez Nuuuts" is one of the greatest songs ever, shoulda been a single.

Also never especially considered the Digable/PM Dawn/De La era a "heyday," fwiw, but then I'm older-than-the-hills school.

Well, it was only one heyday. I prefer the Sugarhill heyday to just about any music produced ever. But the prog rap era that I adored atrophied with the advent of g-funk. PE/De La/Digable/PM Dawn were over either artistically or literally by the decade's latter half. And hells yes, it's partially g-funk's fault. Also, the ruling class's victory in the sampling wars.

I think I might even give the edge to "Good Day", which manages to pull the rare trick of being angry and lovely and paranoid and confused all at once, whereas "G Thang" heads a bit more straightforwardly for the pleasure receptors. Maybe that's just my ****ist side speaking, though.

Too straightforwardly for me. There's just not as much to chew on as there is in "Good Day." If that makes me rockist, then rock/rap (which started to be the same thing around this time, no?) on, baby!

When I see people bigging up Digable/PM Dawn/De La (one of which I love, one of which I hate, one of which I'm ambivalent toward) at the expense of harder-edged rap, it kinda gets my goat.

Perhaps we need a new definition of hard. "Comatose" and "Plastic" rock out harder than "G Thang," "The Beautiful" outfunks it. And PE crushes all.

Gangsta (for lack of a better term) is just so much more compelling today. Dre never created anything as, um, unprogressive and creepy as Ying Yang Twins' "Whisper Song," as torn as "Hustlin'" or Young Buck's "Get Buck," as straightforwardly pleasurable as The Federation's "18 Dummy" (which, in case you've never heard it, goes "18 Dummy! 18 Dummy! 18 Dummy! 18 Dummy! 18 Dummy! 18 Dummy! 18 Dummy!"). Coupled with the "In my house!' burst above, that should tell you a lot about my tastes.

Not that you would expect anything else from me, but that is TOTALLY wrong.

Fwiw, I'm not the only one saying this. But hells yes, they're inconsistent. You think there's not a ounce of fat on Free Your Mind or America Eats Its Young or Cosmic Slop or any of George Clinton Inc.'s 1979 albums?

Well, it was only one heyday. I prefer the Sugarhill heyday to just about any music produced ever.

I think this is a great point to make with hip-hop. Trying to determine a single "heyday" is futile (as I suppose it is also with rock and every other genre). There are dips and peaks throughout its history. I don't love the late '80s era AS much as the early '80s, but it was a great period, definitely.

I'll just peek my head out of the woodwork to say that I was one of the "G Thang" votes. I thought the song was kind of cool when it came out - that was my first exposure to Snoop Dogg, and his laconic style struck a nerve with me - he didn't sound like any rapper I'd heard before. Over the years, I think that synthesizer hook has become nearly iconic - and the song still sounds great to my ears.

"laconic" - I'm not sure if that's the right word - but just unhurried, relaxed, with a hint of menace. Kind of like what I'd imagine the Clint Eastwood character from one of those old Sergio Leone westerns would sound like if his onscreen persona were magically translated into the '90s SoCal rap milieu.

I find the tepid initial responses to "G Thang" interesting, too. As far as I'm concerned, as someone a bit younger, there is no initial response because it's been ubiquitous for as long as I've been actively listening to music. Also, for me the g-funk era is kind of the heyday, as that was the dominant strain when I first started listening to rap. Sure there was the East Coast hardcore contingent, too, but you didn't hear that on the radio here and most of that stuff flew completely over my head when I was 10/11/12 anyways. I never got into Wu-Tang until well after the fact. G-funk wasn't a subgenre of rap to me, it was what rap sounded like, all the other things were the outliers. Of course, I'm sure a lot of this has to do with growing up on the West Coast during the peak of West Coast rap's popularity. Weirdly, or maybe not so weirdly, around 95/96 when I first started listening to the radio/watching MTV a lot, I probably heard more Southern rap than East Coast. I guess in those days it just as present as a few years later at the beginning of the "Dirty South boom" (but certainly not so much as today), but went mostly unacknowledged.

About the "hard" thing, I was mostly talking lyric-wise. I don't know the PM Dawn stuff you're talking about, but PE are obv. hardly sonically than G-funk (funny to think that just a few years earlier Dre was making stuff like "Straight Outta Compton" and "100 Miles and Running", both of which I love just as much as anything he did later), or just about anything else out there. But the g-funkers, for the most part, weren't about being abrasive. They wanted to lull (I imagine KJB would use "lull" as a pejorative) you into their world, not scare you away from it. Which is a lot of why "It Was a Good Day" works better than "Check Yo'Self". The former invites you to listen in and hear what kind of day Ice Cube had, whereas the latter is too busy holding the listener at arms length where there can be no empathy.

The interesting thing about bringing up "18 Dummy" is that "G Thang" is just as pleasurable, if not more so, but Dre & The Federation are aiming for different versions of pleasure. The pleasure of G-Funk is sensual, whereas hyphy's pleasures are visceral. I should mention that hyphy is more or less my favorite strain of current rap and a godsend. Too much of West Coast rap consists of third-wave g-funk or third-wave post-Pharcyde/Heiro rehashes. It's about damn time something both original and viable (as in having a legitimate scene, and not just being a one-time fluke like "Drop It Like It's Hot" or something) happened. Also, hyphy is about the only segment of the rap landscape that manages to surprise me on a fairly regular basis.

I find the tepid initial responses to "G Thang" interesting, too.

I just thought of something. Might we think of the thread comments as a corollary to the weighted P&J votes, a measure of how much people care about what they chose? Obviously not fool-proof (and I always assigned 10 points to each of my top ten albums in protest against singles not being weighted). But it would feed my personal theory about the ultimate dullness of "G Thang." ;)

Cruising >>>>>>>> Porn Theater

Dude, no.

(xp, well maybe not xp, too. I have no idea what you even mean by that. That's hella random.)

I was way xxx-posting with Kevin upthread. Anyway, I don't begrudge anyone hating Cruising even if I'm among the predictable group currently reevaluating it, but Porn Theater was pretty boring.

Jacques Nolot is the John Ford of the Aughties and Porn Theatre is his The Long Gray Line, even his Wagon Master.

Alright, I was trying to tie the idea of cruising being better than going to a porn theater into Dr. Dre and Ice Cube, which was a minor mindfuck, but thanks for explaining.