How do you guys hear "pretention" in music?

It's just a word that idiots use. Don't sweat it.

It generally means "I don't understand it, and I feel insecure about that."

As a critical term, i think it's bullshit.

And if a wine is described as 'unpretentious', it's code for 'you probably want to spend a little more . .'

overly serious/ambitious and maybe showily learned/literate/cultured? it's a pretty terrible complaint or accusation to make

jaymc is right

jaymc is right about the "generally" part. it's a hackneyed criticism but there is such a thing as pretension in music.

well, the snl 'goth talk' sketch is probably an apt case study to explain what the 'ugh' quote probably meant (without reading the thread you're talking about, whatever)
the writers of the sketch saw the average goth strawman as someone in over their head/unintentionally funny/playing dress-up/overly impressed-with their own empty hand-me-down rhetoric. if asked to describe the 'average goth' the writers probably would have used the word 'pretension' somewhere in there. i don't know if that assessment squares with the dictionary definition of pretension(nor do i use it) but it's probably what the "ugh" quote was getting at in that case. kind of an annoying word at this point, rendered nebulous and numbing by the type of people who always use it.

The perception of pretention is a kind of intellectual irritation. We experience it when we think others are trying to pass as what they are not - when they seem to be claiming membership in an exclusive group, but failing (by our internal standards) to present the proper credentials. This makes the perception of pretension a gatekeeper's response, one predicated on the idea that we can reliably discern the unspoken intents and motives of others.

I sometimes find lyrics pretentious. This happens when imagine I perceive in them an attempt to seem smart, deep, complex or sophisticated in some sense or another. When such attempts fail - especially when they don't fail laughably - they tend to irritate me. I suppose this makes me an elitist, and that makes sense: pretention will only bother you if you're an elitist. Otherwise, there's no obligation to protect the territory against unschooled interlopers, and thus no source of irritation.

But what the hell does pretention sound like?

do a search for "just got offed"

actually come to think about it im sure hell be in this thread in a couple hours

I'm generally suspicious about accusations of pretension, and I think it sometimes says more about the accuser than the accused. But sometimes it's valid. Pretentious can just mean unearned showiness or ostentatiousness. It can also refer to something that seems affected, as if the artist is putting on airs or pretending to be an authority about something they are not. Some people want art to be honest, and pretention sounds like dishonesty mixed with vanity.

i know a guy that sounds like that

Well, when I think of pseudointellectualism in art I immediately think (though it obviously isn't limited to this) of someone who promotes cleverness over genuine substance and getting things right. Pretension is something that is similar in that you detect a similar sense of fraud in what is being put forth. Perhaps you think the music puts on masks and clichès to make a shallow pool seem deeper?

I'm not sure, like obscenity it's hard to be precise about it but people seem to know it when they see it.

pretentious, as a critique/insult, is a good deal more valuable than "pseudointellectual," which is transparently an insult masquerading as a critique: "oh hai, I know what an intellectual is, but I don't like you, so you're a pseudointellectual" - as if there were some board of credentials to determine who is or isn't an intellectual

http://www.filemagazine.com/thecollection/archives/images/judges.jpg

J0HN D.... NOT AN INTELLECTUAL

pretentious, as a critique/insult, is a good deal more valuable than "pseudointellectual," which is transparently an insult masquerading as a critique: "oh hai, I know what an intellectual is, but I don't like you, so you're a pseudointellectual" - as if there were some board of credentials to determine who is or isn't an intellectual

There's no scale to say what's pretentious or not either. In both cases the fact you can't say its meaning with precision doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't a valid expression to use.

i would say that pseudointellecual behavior is pretentious

I don't really like the adjectives "pretentious" or "self-indulgent" cuz i don't really know what they mean. they do always seem like substitues for "i just don't really like it."

too vague. everyone's pretending things and indulging in themselves, gotta be more specific.

Pretentiousness is the art of staring in the mirror and masturbating. Over the centuries, this practice developed as the Greek rhetorical tradition gradually merged with the up-and-coming gay pornographic industry prevalent in Normandy. As such, France is known to be extremely pretentious. --æ

e.g. the act of making music is pretentious unless you got somebody to fuck when it gets too hot and kill yourself if your lyrics are gay rhetoric

There's no scale to say what's pretentious or not either. In both cases the fact you can't say its meaning with precision doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't a valid expression to use.

Yeah. These are all just quality judgments. The problem with accusing something of being pretentious or pseudointellectual or whatever (and I think this was said before in some other thread) is when you use them as a dismissal. Simply calling something pretentious doesn't substitute for a substantive critique, but some people like to use it as though it does.

Lots of music is pretentious. It's up to you whether that's a good or bad thing. I love lots of pretentious prog, the pretentiousness makes it special.

http://www.starkult.de/downloads/content_pix/gwar.jpg

"Pretentious? Moi?"

i don't feel like telling you right now, but I'll tell you what pretentious music sounds like tomorrow. it's sorta like tom waits meets elliot smith meets bright eyes. I'll tell you tomorrow.

Thank you guys. I felt the same way as most of you do as far as the term not really having any meaning outside a listener's projection, although by definition, pretense has to exist in order for a musician to want to make music and be public about it. It's just a matter of the mechanism (or mechanisms) of the pretense.

CaptainLorax! My buddy from the rebel flag thread! I can't wait to hear your analysis on pretentious music. It's already tomorrow. Cough it up already.

I think a lot of the problem is, that some people use the word "pretentious" as a blanket insult meaning pompous or overblown or pseudo-intellectual or whatever.

Pretentious means "holding the pretense of being other than what one really is." I would say Bauhaus are pretentious, because they are a bunch of middle class blokes from Northampton pretending to be Weimar art students, or horror film vampires, or a dub reggae band, or any of the other poses that took their fancy over the years.

It was a lot of fun on the way. I don't think they took themselves half as seriously as either their fans or their critics took them. I love them *because* they were pretentious, that they aspired to and often achieved an interesting otherness.

The sad thing about the 'pretentious' tag as applied to Bauhaus is that, for me at least, their music always delivered. They always kicked ass - or eye! On that level, at least, they weren't pretending.

There are so many, many other acts that have made a career out of having read one more Thames and Hudson textbook than the rockcrit reviewing them.

my explanation would be like t he crescent fresh explanation
h ttp:// www . youtube .com /watch?v=dasab33h1nQ

i don't feel like telling you right now, but I'll tell you what pretentious music sounds like tomorrow. it's sorta like tom waits meets elliot smith meets bright eyes. I'll tell you tomorrow.

-- CaptainLorax, Friday, 7 September 2007 10:06 (8 hours ago) Link

wow... how meta.

Pretentious=good

The only exception being where melody and harmony are sacrified for the sake of pretentions.