2Step Garage getting very ravey :-)

As for 2-step's ravier direction, I do like it but I hope that in the tug between r&b and rave the actual house element doesn't get lost. I haven't heard much 2step lately that's had the sexy lasciviousness that was all over '98 releases.

Tim

First Thought/impressions:

1)First half of the album absolutely excellent just the right mix of the rough and the smooth, with a nice pirate radio vibe going on in there as well. V Good. 2)second half(tracks 7 onwards) not so good Jazz noodling and far too soulful for my liking. 3)General comments, man does the bass on this cd kick on a good system. You can tell mr Cole used to engineer Drum n' Bass and is good mates with Ed rush and Opitical. Takes me back to 94.........

Oh and the new Truesteppers choon is terrible, what was Johnny L thinking of? and will somebody please him to ditch the bloody vocorder.

And did anyone read the Mixmag article on 'Breakbeat Garage' very interesting and reasonably well written for Mixmag ;-)

Thankyou for listening.

Anyways, about 2-step going back to 94, good stuff I reckon, a lot of it has just been far too wet and po-faced and a hardcore kick up the arse has got to be welcomed - plenty of systems at the moment are just going the whole hog and dropping earlyish ardcore (91/92) choons straight alongside other stuff, massive piano breaks and all. This might be going a bit far (probably is, really) but the stuff coming out from folk like Dominic B and Stanton Warriors can only be a good thing, imo. Just wait till someone gives it a name and a scene (someone mentioned 'breakbeat garage') and it'll all be over though. Sniff. (see Big Beat)

If these artists weren't getting much attention when they called themselves "nu skool breakz", suddenly deciding that they're "breakbeat garage" doesn't automatically exciting. The next thing you know Hybrid will be calling themselves "progressive breakbeat garage".

Even though I disliked "Bound 4 Da Reload", I have more respect for Oxide & Neutrino and especially So Solid Crew - at least what they're doing *is* new, no matter how hit and miss it tends to be ("Oh No" is great, of course).

I can't see how T-Power and Freq Nasty can claim to be breakbeat garage for any reason that is not cynical and moneygrubbing; not only does their music have no resemblance to "garage", but it has little in common with any of UK Garage. There are certain ways of constructing a beat (basically, it's got to have a Timbaland stutter-twist to it) that make tracks 2-step even when using breakbeats, and artists who use (and I might add, have always used) plain ole' breakbeats and make tracks perfect for Botchit and Scarper shouldn't bitch when they're not included under the umbrella of garage. Ultimately, what the *hell* are they doing that's innovative?

If these artists weren't getting much attention when they called themselves "nu skool breakz", suddenly deciding that they're "breakbeat garage" doesn't automatically exciting. The next thing you know Hybrid will be calling themselves "progressive breakbeat garage".

Even though I disliked "Bound 4 Da Reload", I have more respect for Oxide & Neutrino and especially So Solid Crew - at least what they're doing *is* new, no matter how hit and miss it tends to be ("Oh No" is great, of course).

thought i'd scratch myself a 7yr itch...:)

wow, the 6th thread started on ILM

Ha ha can I claim OTM status for myself for that last post I made??

Here's something else I wrote about garage a few months later:

"Observation: most of the garage tracks that really blow me away with their inventiveness and groovability are still actually the vocal tracks, although often in significantly modified and bassline-added form. The pinnacle of this phenomenon is the Wideboys mix of Once Waz Nice's Messing Around (make sure it's the crazy 2-step mix), which puts a diva through the ringer and comes out with a truly snarky bitchfest full of groaning basslines and snapping breaks.

That's been around for a while of course, but most of the other other excellent examples are of unknown provenance to me - one contrasts excellent fluttery r&b verses (ID this for me: the diva sings "in my dreams, in my dreams, you and I are holding hands") with a joyously rigorous bass-and-MC chorus over deliriously psychotic beats. Another pushes the trademark garage xylobassline way up into the treble register, which sounds awesome in a "how come no-one's done that before?" sort of way.

Phaze One's "Nicole's Groove" isn't quite as good as those, but it's got enough that's worth mentioning. Funny history here: the original was a moody bass-driven number based around a snatch of vocals by Nicole about how she's gonna "hold out" and save her virginity for true love. To release it though Phaze One had to redo the vocals in order to satisfy copyright laws.

Traditional wisdom holds that the new version - complete with amended and extended lyrics - is inferior, but certainly the (what I presume to be) dub version I've heard out is marvellous: the artificial sweetness of the vocals and the story they tell ("I'm gonna hold out till I know about love/kiss and hugs, I'm sure that'll be enough") are pretty much debased by the turbocharged bass action and highpitched, barbed beats in an energetic breakdown. The virginal pose seems to be an almost gruesome joke in the face of the rough sexuality of the music. Garage is always at it's best when it's conjuring up ideas of sex with the machine.

On a related note, all my favourite 'experimental' 2-step tunes at the moment - Exemen's "Storm", Maddslinky & Silva's "Dark Swing", Phuturistix's "Frequencies", El-B and Roxy's "Dancehall", anything by Horsepower Productions ("You Used To Hold Me (Dub)", "Let's Dance", "Gorgon Sound") - seem to play on 2-step's artificial, robotic sheen to summon up sensations of future-shock. 2-step's programmed beats are more disorienting than breaks because they're clearly inhuman, or even post-human. What can sound lascivious can on the turn of a heel become menacing, alienating...

This new dark sound, defined I'd say by El-B's "Digital", isn't very sexy - it's closer to techstep than ever, specifically the sort of glossy Blade Runner techstep Dom & Roland used to specialise in, although it must be noted that Horsepower Productions really do sound like a 2-step Maurizio - but even the echo of sexiness that the beats allude to seems to be enough to distinguish this sort of stuff from what is often breakbeat tedium.

Track of the moment however is Terry Walker and Treading New Territories' "Easy Loving You", an endlessly enjoyable soulful vocal track whose secret weapon is a restless, relentless latinesque rhythm and a delectable b-line. Play this straight after an El-B track (or vice versa) and give yourself a headache."

The xylobass track I talk about here is the Dub of D'N'D's "Pick It Up". Also I listened to that Wideboys Remix of "Messin' Around" again yesterday and was forcefully reminded of how brilliant is - one of their finest (and certainly hardest) moments.

You can't OTM yourself.

Unless you're Nabisco.

The virginal pose seems to be an almost gruesome joke in the face of the rough sexuality of the music.

quite

i like this more than 'heartbroken' because of the superior bassline but horses for courses

not so much a gruesome sexjoke as a sort of wry melancholy, perhaps; undertow of naiveties and good intentions 'holding out' against, i dunno, hustle n bustle and bump n grind and ch' n ching. notice how this blossomed into all that twee dewy protogrime, 'i luv you rmx', 'take time', 'happens for a reason', 'boys love girls' - but then knowing who phaze one turned out to be ("i'm sure that'll be enough") i guess that's no surprise. shame da 2nd phaze wasn't nearly as good as the first eh.

Ha ha can I claim OTM status for myself for that last post I made??

Which post was that again Tim ??? There's quite few hit and miss ones here and can somebody swap this...

once_waz_nice_-_messin_around_wideboys_remix.mp3
http://www.zshare.net/audio/5396628cabc469/

...with imho the bestest UKG/2step song ever. B15 projects - girls like us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYNs2t11yxQ

Love that song to death but accidentally deleted it in the great music purge of 2003...

...i could just rip the audio of the vid i suppose and i wouldn't mind reading this

so yeah 2step + nu skool = breakbeat garage >> breakstep >> dubstep

oops...wouldn't mind reading this

And did anyone read the Mixmag article on 'Breakbeat Garage' very interesting and reasonably well written for Mixmag ;-)

ID this for me: the diva sings "in my dreams, in my dreams, you and I are holding hands

"dreams" by smokin beats

look their picture up on discogs for a laugh - they look like autechre

wait a second, though, there's no MC and bassline in that track. the "original mix" is basically a heavy armand van helden type speed garage track - there's even erick morillo, dj tonka and ian pooley remixes.

these guys also recorded as "zoom & D.B.X." (great name)

there's an *incredible* zoom & DBX remix of "something in your eyes" that uses an amazing turbocharged bass riff, ends up sounding like a post-timbaland take on the classic pretty tony / pandisc electro-freestyle sound, something like debbie deb's "lookout weekend" versioned by 187 lockdown might sound

there's also a zoom & dbx track called "dreams 2000" - maybe that's what you heard?

Yeah I think that's what it was. I can't believe I didn't recognise the "Dreams" sample at the time that I wrote that!

Will have to find the Zoom & DBX remix of "Something In Your Eyes".

Vahid have you heard their track "Comin' Again" from 2001 I think? It's a fantastic track sampling Adam F's "Colours", MC-garage but really pretty and dewy-eyed - perhaps the best precusor for the twee proto-grime that rtc mentions above.

Here's something I wrote a short while ago about "Comin' Again":

‘A bit of a weeper this one, I’m afraid: stealing that sparkly little hook from Adam F’s “Colours”, adding a tearjerker bassline K Warren would be proud of, synth chords from the Artful Dodger’s more ballad-ish tracks and an awesomely springloaded rhythm (with little amen snippets firing off like hidden landmines), it’s at once homely and epic, a great end of the night sojourn into outright sentimentality.’

i like that 'comin again'! ur right, the tooty minihorns lend it a target-ish ambivalence.

(obv they're not really minihorns at all, dunno why i'm hearing them that way)

...swap sum trax instead of talking bout em eh ???

uk garage 2step - zoom dbx - coming again.mp3
http://www.zshare.net/audio/5406552570e8d9/

up yours fuckface

^^^haha...face up fuck yours :)

so heres this just released anthology...

Various Artists - Pure Garage - Rewind Back To The Old Skool

Tracklistings
Disk 1

1. Ez - Intro 8
2. Sweet Female Attitude - Flowers
3. K-Ci - Tell Me It's Real
4. Wideboys - Sambucca
5. Masters Of Ceremonies - Do You Really Like It?
6. Architechs - Body Groove
7. Sticky - Triplets
8. Monsta Boy - Sorry (I Didn't Know)
9. K-Warren - Coming Home
10. Jaimeson - True
11. Agent X - Decoy
12. K2 Family - Bouncing Flow
13. So Solid Crew - 21 Seconds
14. DJ Dee Kline - I Don't Smoke
15. Reach And Spin - Hyper! (Hype The Funk)
16. DJ Zinc - 138 Trek
17. Jaheim - Just In Case
18. Lonyo - Garage Girls
19. Craig David - Fill Me In
20. Artful Dodger - Please Don't Turn Me On
21. 3rd Core - Mindless And Broken
22. Shola Ama - Run To Me
23. 702 - You Don't Know
24. N'n'G - Right Before My Eyes
25. Shanks And Bigfoot - Sweet Like Chocolate

Tracklistings
Disk 2

1. Ez - Intro 5
2. Artful Dodger - Re-Rewind (The Crowd Say Bo Selecta)
3. Shola Ama - Imagine
4. Deetah - Relax
5. Second Protocol - Bass Lick
6. DJ Lewi - Hold Me Tight
7. Cleptomaniacs - All I Do
8. Sia - Little Man (Exemen Works)
9. Jammin' - Kinda Funky
10. Genius Cru - Boom Selection
11. Sticky - Booo!
12. Blazin' Squad - Standard Flow
13. Ez - Want You Back
14. Todd Edwards - Shut The Door
15. DJ Faz - Destiny
16. Pink - There You Go
17. Azzido Da Bass - Dooms Night
18. Future Underground Nation - It's The Way
19. TNT - Unique
20. Teebone - Fly Bi (EZ Special)
21. Brotherz In Law - U.N.D.E.R.G.R.O.U.N.D.
22. Pay As You Go Cartel - Champagne Dance
23. Heartless Crew - The Heartless Theme
24. Blowfelt - Lickle Rolla
25. Santos - Camels

Tracklistings
Disk 3

1. Ez - Intro
2. MJ Cole - Sincere
3. George Morel - Let's Groove
4. Double 99 - Rip Groove
5. Tina Moore - Never Gonna Let You Go
6. Amira - My Desire
7. Restless Native - I Wanna Know
8. C.J Bolland - Sugar Is Sweeter
9. Mike Dunn - God Made Me Phunky
10. Dem 2 - Destiny
11. United Groove Collective - Mic Tribute
12. Robbie Craig - Woman Trouble
13. Y Tribe - Enough Is Enough
14. Robbie Craig - Lessons In Love
15. Zack Toms - Bring Me Down
16. TJR - Just Gets Better
17. Wookie - Battle
18. New Horizons - Find The Path
19. Smokin' Beats - Dreams
20. Roy Davis Jnr - Gabriel
21. Le Roc, Kele - My Love
22. Amar - Sometimes It Snow In April
23. Colours - What You Do
24. Greg Steiner - Weakness
25. Sole Fusion - Bass Tone

Tracklistings
Disk 4

1. Ez - Intro 10
2. Sunship - 4 U 4 Me
3. Control S - Never Leave Me Alone
4. Jean - Crazy
5. Ayklogic - Shine
6. Cole - Our Destiny
7. Todd Edwards - Come Unto Me
8. Qualified - Look Shook
9. Wideboys - What You're Thinking
10. Ts7 - Smile
11. MC Bonez - You Wot
12. Nastee Boi - Hold It Down
13. Dexplicit - Bulla Cake (EZ Special)
14. Sticky - Standard Protocol
15. Sub Zero - Rock With Ya
16. Witty Boi - Iron Man
17. Shut Up And Dance - Glory Days
18. COKE - Night
19. Skepta - Duppy
20. David Lewis - Hands On Her
21. Le Roc, Kele - Naked
22. Ben Westbeech - Dance With Me
23. Midnight Circus - Complicated
24. Lickrish Music - Over With You
25. One Dark Martian - We Can Make It

...is there anything not there that some might think should be there ???

B15-girls like us should definitely have been on there...

I take it that's mixed? I would buy it immediately otherwise

Santos - Camels

rly?

No way you can fit 25 tracks per CD otherwise.

The only problem with these retrospective comps is that they only compile the stuff which was heavily compiled at the time. I suppose it'd work well if you're playing catch-up, but otherwise surely easier to hit the second hand stores?

that looks good! one appreciates disc 4.

obvious, but can i just say

8. Sia - Little Man (Exemen Works)

still just sickeningly sick

Yeah disc 4 would be what i'd pick it up for.

but otherwise surely easier to hit the second hand stores?

...or hunt down some lesser known DJ mixes on line

so how many of those tunes have you got Tim ???

disc 4 is the only one with nothing i know. where's zed bias tho?

giveittomegiveittome

i second the love for "dreams"

will probably get that anthology BECAUSE it's mixed

guys should i buy this?

http://www.discogs.com/release/132680

I don't have the following tracks from the first three of those discs:

Ez - Want You Back
DJ Faz - Destiny
TJR - Just Gets Better
TNT - Unique
Greg Steiner - Weakness

Of those i'd be very keen to hear "Unique" in particular - TNT's "Easy Lovin' You" is a favourite of mine. I think I can guess what the EZ track sounds like.

Winston, the first disc of that Dreem Teem mix is classic stuff, but it's also very similar to a lot of (esp. Dreem Teem-related) old 2-step comps floating around, so I'd only buy it if it's second-hand or cheap.

2 Banks of Four - Hook and a Line (Zed Bias Remix).m4a

^^^Cheers for that. That is a mean tune. It's got the classic dubstep halfstep template but with rolling breaks filling it in. Why the fuck hasn't anybody cloned that instead of the straight halfstep backbeat with little variation on percussive rolls and snare fills short of getting all glitchy and savage on the cuts and edits ala toasty, boxcutter and more recently reso ?

What thinks you of simon reynolds contention that the 'bassline' sub genre contains the re-asserted female principle long missing in grime/dubstep and thus comes in under the larger 2step/UKG umbrella family of electronica strains, more so than 4/4 house ?

me i think bassline is just breaks/dubstep with a plodding 4 on the floor backbeat...

...zed bias interview. Still the man, although rating kode9 tunes kinda makes me wonder if he's pre zed biased given he engineeered kodes first tune...

http://www.oneweektolive.com/

...can't wait to hear his dubstep noodlings. Interesting one of his best gigs is rememebred as him playing breaks and garage sandwiched between d'n'b heads :)

Pollywog stop talking so much crap - that Zed Bias remix of "Hook and a Line" has nothing to do with breaks or dubstep, it's straight 2-step (albeit an unusually classy/"deep" version of the same. Listen to any 2-step from circa 2001 and you'll hear a lot of similar beat programming.

And bassline has nothing to do with breaks/dubstep with a plodding 4 on the floor backbeat. It's speed garage with less housey syncopation and basslines that combine the classic "dread" bassline of speed garage circa 1997 with the metallic basslines of 2-step circa 2000, and then intensifies this combination. It's closer to electro-house than it is to breaks or dubstep.

seriously mate, you're becoming the geir of garage with this whole "breaks is responsible for everything" line.

he's right that bassline is wack

Vahid check out the following tracks:

Dizzee Rascal - Flex (DJ Q Remix)
DJ Q ft. MC Bones & Laffy - Get Mad
DJ Curious - Girl
Agent X ft. Donae'o - Slow Down
H20 - What's It Gonna Be
TS7 - Hazy
Jamie Duggan - No Cocaine

i really like throwback 4x4 speed garage but i think i draw the line at what rtc called "northern monkey bosh". all of the bass in the bassline house i've heard sounded like crap. but maybe i've only heard bad stuff?

wait but agent x is 4x4, not bassline?

i like my agent x / dj narrows etc quite a bit, but i thought this was not bassline?

i like TS7, most of it just sounds like sped-up 2step to me. i wouldn't have called it bassline.

i dunno, i've been listening to stuff like subzero, nastee boi, cheeksta, burgaboy, dj murkz, dj caliber, etc ... basically my knowledge of the genre extends to several northern line comps

and i can say for every few startling tracks (that "is you is you" thing by jtj, cheeksta's "baby", "get mad") there's a tidal wave of gabba-ish crap in like a 10:1 ratio. this is just england's answer to jumpstyle, isn't it?

and i'm convinced that any lingering excitement i feel over the genre is down to names like MC BONES & LAFFY (yessssss) and the rush of just hearing people MCing over 4x4. they could be MCing over south african goa for all i care!

do you endorse this tim

tim what did you think of vex'd's album? i ask because i know you like dom + roland. you should listen to "crusher dub" and "lion (VIP)", both very much classic techstep.

seriously tim, when i listen to these bassline mixes i just zone out through the stretches of 4-5 acrid bassline tracks and then momentarily perk up whenever an MC or vocalist or ragga sample shows up.

bassline i rate: mr figz, ts7 (often very jaxx-y), t2, screama, xs dubs, maybe subzero, maybe dj q, maybe caliber?

but again, i don't know shit about the genre except a couple of comps from one label

Yeah I think TS7 is my favourite producer, and you're right he is the one that reminds me most of 2-step, but his basslines are like totally the epitome of "bassline" surely - the low and high lines duelling with eachother is his favourite trick!

I think it's all a bit more mixed up than some sort of strict 4X4 versus bassline divide. Most of the mixes I've heard have quite a few tracks that might fall on both sides and even old 2-step tracks (even the Wideboys remix of "Messin' Around", which is funny given it was discussed upthread). DJ Q is the person whose mixes I have listened to most and he definitely seems very promiscuous and not gabba-ish at all - if anything a lot of this stuff reminds me of the odder grime e.g. Low Deep productions.

Pollywog stop talking so much crap - that Zed Bias remix of "Hook and a Line" has nothing to do with breaks or dubstep, it's straight 2-step (albeit an unusually classy/"deep" version of the same. Listen to any 2-step from circa 2001 and you'll hear a lot of similar beat programming.

And bassline has nothing to do with breaks/dubstep with a plodding 4 on the floor backbeat. It's speed garage with less housey syncopation and basslines that combine the classic "dread" bassline of speed garage circa 1997 with the metallic basslines of 2-step circa 2000, and then intensifies this combination. It's closer to electro-house than it is to breaks or dubstep.

haha classic...

...you say tomatoes i say potatoes

that zed bias remix has nothing to do with breaks and dubstep except it just so happened at the time he remixed that, he was playing out breaks and people were citing his influence to mould dubstep...

...and what do you reckon bassline would sound like if you took the plodding 4 on the floor out and put a breakbeat behind it ???

seriously though, don't you know breaks is responsible for everything !!!

i mean, einstein theorised relativity while listening to straight breaks but of an unusually classy deep variety...huh ???

TJR - Just Gets Better

is that the one that goes "just gets better with tiiime - TIME! - just gets better with tiiime..."

i love that one, it's on the 2000 matt jam lamont comp

"that zed bias remix has nothing to do with breaks and dubstep except it just so happened at the time he remixed that, he was playing out breaks and people were citing his influence to mould dubstep..."

Yes but neither of those things change the fact that the track doesn't use breaks and isn't really a dubstep track (anyway, what I was objecting to wasn't your reference to dubstep but to halfstep, which only came along a good three years later).

I mean the most obvious example of the difference between 2-step and breaks in this regard is to go and listen to Bias's remix of "138 Trek". What does he do on this track? He takes a breakbeat garage track and makes it a 2-step track! How? By replacing the breakbeat rhythm with a 2-step rhythm!

Which also means that saying "oh but if you replaced a 4X4 beat with a breakbeat it would sound like a breakbeat track" a somewhat redudant statement. I mean, what do you expect?

"If I performed this bassline track on a traditional rock set-up it'd sound like a rock song! Therefore clearly bassline is just rock music performed on non-rock instruments."

closer to electro-house than it is to breaks or dubstep.

quite fun though, when it does seem to turn on dubstep; cheeksta's 'baby' with that one sweetboy sizzla tune razzing coki's dreary shit, and basically the whole banal yardie-weed-maaan drivel industry that scene's built on (cheeksta even chucks BIRDSONG into one mix of it - get out more you bedroom fucks!) - and trc & zoe's superb 'lately' bringing that proper ghost town skank ("yet i still can't see / why you chose her and not MEEEE-EEEE-EEEEEE-EEEEEEE-EEEEEEEE" to infinity, so good)

(trc also notable for commenting "revelations 14 18 business" on one of his girl tunes on his myspace, which begat me looking it up and discovering that lo, the bible can apparently be quite filthy if you read it the right way)

is that the one that goes "just gets better with tiiime - TIME! - just gets better with tiiime..."

aye

wait, is there supposed to be a difference between 4x4 and bassline? i haaaate these terms forever.

Yes but neither of those things change the fact that the track doesn't use breaks and isn't really a dubstep track (anyway, what I was objecting to wasn't your reference to dubstep but to halfstep, which only came along a good three years later).

of course theres a break in that tune. it's what keeps the beat ticking over between the first basic kick/snare pattern

and FWIW we produced a halfstep remix in 2002 checkit 'slippin' on http://www.myspace.com/pollywogga

Which also means that saying "oh but if you replaced a 4X4 beat with a breakbeat it would sound like a breakbeat track" a somewhat redudant statement. I mean, what do you expect?

well i wouldn't expect a whole subgenre to form if thats the only different audio signifier...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4dlAWq5sGU

That is awesome.

hardcore stlyee