The changing face of the "classic album"

Well, I didn;t know the Prodge recorded with those singers, so My guess is they are now known for doing a couple records Mary Whitehouse might not have approved of.

the general public believed that "If You Tolerate This..." was one of the 35 best number one singles ever. Ah, the Manics block voting, um, block. I guess they'd still go for that one over "masses against the classes"

Yeah, that Zane series is a bit sad. BAck in the day, you could hear about classic albums you might not have known about. Now, it's more about albums you do know about, with facts you knew already, to make you feel good about being a BIG arctics fan. Although at least the Led Zep one might be better. I dunno, I never went for the Zep much.

Generally, the classic 'classic' canon is Radiohead in, Nirvana in, and everyone else moves down a couple spaces, or stays where they are. (The Gambaccini list)

lol British

I'm kinda surprised that there isn't "one" token rap album in that Radio one show tbh, although what the new token rap album is for douchebags like Zane Lowe I dunno. "It Takes A Nation" is too old, "Three Feet High" is too irrelevant, it'd be "Paul's Boutique", huh? Can't wait until "Graduation" is regarded as the best rap album ever.

lol British

-- The Reverend, Monday, 5 November 2007 09:58 (53 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

^^^this

I have a feeling that Stereophonics and Razorlight would place on the 2007 list.

Would that be the first raz album, or the latest one that didn't even make the NME "best of the year" list?

The canon is fucked. Has been for years.

Sure, but it's not dead, it's walking wounded, and seemingly unaware that it's dropping limbs off all over the place. The more the canon seems... not irrelevant. Corrupted? The more the canon seems corrupted, the more stock people seem to put into it.

Maybe worth qf the piece in HHC this month asking why indie teens are happy to have Art Brut and The Killers alonside The Smiths and The Pixies on their iPod, but hip-hop teens aren't bumping Kool Moe Dee and Biz Markie alongside Lil Wayne and Kanye.

The second Razorlight album, because it didn't make the NME "best of the year" list.

I thought the Prodge were best known nowadays for 'Charley', a bona fide rave classic. It's lasted rather well, unlike their Fat of the Land stuff.

The man on the street isn't quite the same as indie kids tho.

the general public believed that "If You Tolerate This..." was one of the 35 best number one singles ever.

Those Channel 4 best ofs generally had a list of a hundred already picked by the programme makers, then the public vote only deteremined what the placing of these pre-picked hundred would be. Then, on the one my brother worked on, they shifted the order around to their liking anyway.

The public it is, the more corrupted it becomes; the more corrupted it is, the more accessible it becomes. It's no longer what's 'credible' but 'what's popular with a certain audience', which is ludicrous.

I've heard this as well, in fairness. Wasn't it especially dodgy when it came to the Top 100 Stand-Up lists that all the comedians who wouldn't really work if you didn't include swearing in their act (Lenny Bruce, Jerry Sadowitz) somehow magically appeared post-watershed?

xp

The public it is, the more corrupted it becomes; the more corrupted it is, the more accessible it becomes. It's no longer what's 'credible' but 'what's popular with a certain audience', which is ludicrous.

-- Scik Mouthy, Monday, 5 November 2007 10:15 (36 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

^^^elaborate

I dunno, I had plenty of older stuff (maybe not those particular two examples) when I was a teenaged hiphop geek. My younger sister (less geeky than I ever was) listens to quite a bit of stuff that was before her time, too, though tending more toward the 90s than the 80s. She was 7 when "Notorious Thugs" came out, but is seemingly rather obsessed with it.

(xxxxxp)

So another question is: to who does the canon matter, consciously or subconsciously? Advertisers and journos is an obvious answer, so who else? And why?

I have no idea what The Prodigy's standing is in Britain, but in America, Fat of the Land and accompanying singles are by far their best-known work.

The canon's main target audience has always been the 13-year-old, surely? In music, cinema, and literature.

Or, at least, the person with the least _knowledge_ of whatever the particular canon concerns.

I don't think F.R. Leavis was after the 13 year-old vote. I think for the sake of clarity we should probly restrict our thinking to the Rock Canon.

Oh hang on I get you. The canon selected by "experts" to explain to willing but stupid pupils what they NEED to hear/see/read?

Out Of Space yes, Charley no. You still hear Firestarter around even now.

Once something has been in the canon for ten years it tends to stick around for good. I remember the Q list from like 1998 that had OK Computer at #1 and that would probably still place in the top 20 now, but then Radiohead and Nirvana (and Oasis maybe) are sort of a special case. Elsewhere in that list were Everything Must Go and the first Kula Shaker album (!!!) so I'd imagine Razorlight and Snow Patrol would fill that position nowadays.

As far as the stock exchange of older bands goes, I'd say Rolling Stones, Hendrix, Springsteen up, Pistols, Beatles, Public Enemy down. Only slightly in the Beatles case admittedly.

Polling a 'Greatest Hits' canon might be a more interesting endeavour, just so see how it would differ (my guess = Abba, Queen, Bob Marley suddenly do very well).

I think canon does matter quite a bit, mostly for the semi-serious or budding music geek. I started out with canon pretty much, and once I had a feel for my own tastes, I branched out from there. Most people who even delve into canon (which is only 25% of the population to begin with, maybe) never make it past there.

xp: basically what Dom's getting at, but, once again, a lot of people never develop tast beyond the 13-y.o. mindset.

tast = taste

When was the canon first 'codified'? When did the first 'top 100 ever' lists start emerging? My guess is that as soon as that happened, and the canon was attempted to be made tanggible, that it began to crumble. When you can't see it, it contains a vast array of riches; when you can see it, it's redundant. The canon's value is in its mystery, in what it can show you that you didn't already know. Q making it into a list kills it.

13-y-o mindset arrested development is urgent and key here, sadly. If your tastes eveolve then your canon evolves. If they don't... neither does it.

The canon is subjective, is kind of the point.

And taking anything subjective and trying to make it objective fucks it up.

Or rather, never learn to trust their own tastes beyond the teenage exploratory canon-oriented mindset. (addendum to self)

The first rock music canons were from the early 70s, at a guess?

And at that point there wasn't so much to pick from, so you'd necessarily have to go... wider, and further, and find influences and tangents. Now... the aesthetic of 'rock' is so established that it completely dominates the canon, and there's no room for what comes before, after, or parallel to rock.

I think there are subjective, personal canons (that "taste" thing again) and also communal, "objective" canons. The "objective" canons aren't set in stone any more than the personal canons and reflect the general consensus of the times.

Sick Mouthy, I disagree with that. There are most certainly parallel canons which may or may not have anything to do with rock. The canon I bought into as a teen most certainly didn't include the Beatles or the Stones or the Sex Pistols or Joy Division. Hell, it barely had room for the Beastie Boys.

In the rock "objective" canon (top 100?) since 2000:

69 Love Songs
In The Aeroplane Over The Sea

Not so much the times, but the... stakeholders / demographic who produce the canon. The Stylus canon is gonna be way different to the Q one.

x-post; I can see that, but if we're talking about 'the' canon as opposed to 'canonS', then all those things are in it. There's a techno canon and a jazz canon and a hip-hop one and a Tuuvan throat singing one too perhaps, but the 'rock canon' is a big, self-important bitch that obliterates all outside itself by pretending to encompass everything, and hence... is more interesting from an ontological viewpoint, but less interesting musically.

Wayward Johnny B - that's the Yank alt.rock canon. The 'rock' canon.... would ignore them in favour of Coldplay.

xxp: But, you see, that's where we get into parallel canons. The indie rock canon is much different than the classic rock canon, which neither of those would fit into, but might belatedly include Appetite for Destruction and Nevermind, but probably wouldn't include anything by, say, Joy Division.

True, but if we talk just of parallel canons then the debate loses interest because each specific one covers exactly the ground we want it to, and all deserved recognition is given. I want... some kind of Platonic canon, essence of canon.

Wayward Johnny B - that's the Yank alt.rock canon.

Not even. There are millions upon millions of Americans who have grown worshiping Nirvana and Pearl Jam, who have never even heard of Neutral Milk Hotel or the Magnetic Fields.

Aye.

xp: Maybe that's for Dom to decide. After all, this is his thread.

I guess there's so many voices now that there's no central resource that says "this is good"; they all add the caveat "if you like this type of thing", even if it's unwritten. The only ones that don't are the 'so predictable it hurts' ones that are just... Sgt Pepper, Nevermind, DSOTM, Pet Sounds, some Dylan, an Oasis album.

I think Dom would probably agree; he's a populist when it comes to this kind of philosophical debate, as am I.

It's about reliability of resources?

In the rock "objective" canon (top 100?) since 2000:

69 Love Songs
In The Aeroplane Over The Sea

-- The Wayward Johnny B, Monday, November 5, 2007 10:41 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

these are pretty obscure records!

re the smiths and biz markie: the smiths sold lots of records. 80s hip-hop did not, and the records were not easy to get hold of a few years after release. by my reckoning double d and steinski's 'lessons' were not on cd in this country till 2002 -- for example. d/l kids don't know they're born grumble grumble.

So... when hip-hop is as old as rock is now (so maybe 20 years time?) will the hip-hop canon have exactly the same problems we're discussing here (ie, these are issues that arise with any canon), or will it be different (ie, these are issues specific to "rock", in whatever definition of rock we're using here).

I mean, this is about the "rock canon" to the extent that the "rock canon" is the most "important" canon, but are there lessons to be learned here for elsewhere...?

The type of architypical "predictable" list Sick Mouthy is looking for from a suburban Seattle newspaper of little import (painful blurbs omitted):

1. "The Beatles" – The Beatles (1968)
2. "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" – The Beatles (1967)
3. "Nevermind" – Nirvana (1991)
4. "Dark Side of the Moon" – Pink Floyd (1973)
5. "Are You Experienced?" – The Jimi Hendrix Experience (1967)
6. "Highway 61 Revisited" – Bob Dylan (1965)
7. "The Joshua Tree" – U2 (1987)
8. "Pet Sounds" – The Beach Boys (1966)
9. "Blonde on Blonde" – Bob Dylan (1966)
10. "Rubber Soul" – The Beatles (1965)
11. "Ten" – Pearl Jam (1991)
12. "Abbey Road" – The Beatles (1969)
13. "Born to Run" – Bruce Springsteen (1975)
14. "Blood on the Tracks" – Bob Dylan (1975)
15. "Revolver" – The Beatles (1966)
16. "Led Zeppelin IV" – Led Zeppelin (1971)
17. "Moondance" – Van Morrison (1970)
18. "Exile on Main Street" – The Rolling Stones (1972)
19. "Songs in the Key of Life" – Stevie Wonder (1976)
20. "Born in the U.S.A." – Bruce Springsteen (1984)
21. "The Doors" – The Doors (1967)
22. "Who's Next" – The Who (1971)
23. "Purple Rain" – Prince (1984)
24. "Wish You Were Here" – Pink Floyd (1975)
25. "Rumours" – Fleetwood Mac (1977)
26. "London Calling" – The Clash (1980)
27. "Pearl" – Janis Joplin (1971)
28. "Siamese Dream" – Smashing Pumpkins (1993)
29. "Automatic for the People" – R.E.M. (1992)
30. "White Blood Cells" – The White Stripes (2001)
31. "OK Computer" – Radiohead (1997)
32. "What's Going On" – Marvin Gaye (1971)
33. "Appetite for Destruction" – Guns 'N Roses (1987)
34. "Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs" – Derek and the Dominoes
(1970)
35. "Bringing It All Back Home" – Bob Dylan (1965)
36. "Imagine" – John Lennon (1971)
37. "Let It Bleed" – The Rolling Stones (1969)
38. "Graceland" – Paul Simon (1986)
39. "Let It Be" – The Beatles (1970)
40. "My Aim Is True" – Elvis Costello (1977)
41. "Elephant" – The White Stripes (2003)
42. "Exodus" – Bob Marley and the Wailers (1977)
43. " Back in Black" – AC/DC (1980)
44. "Beggars Banquet" – The Rolling Stones (1968)
45. "Document" – R.E.M. (1987)
46. "Achtung Baby" – U2 (1991)
47. "In Utero" – Nirvana (1993)
48. "Love and Theft" – Bob Dylan (2001)
49. "Music from Big Pink" – The Band (1968)
50. "Sign o' the Times" – Prince (1987)
51. "The Wall" – Pink Floyd (1979)
52. "Plastic Ono Band" – John Lennon (1970)
53. "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back" – Public Enemy
(1988)
54. "Tapestry" – Carole King (1971)
55. "Workingman's Dead" – The Grateful Dead (1970)
56. "The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars" –
David Bowie (1972)
57. "Blue" – Joni Mitchell (1971)
58. "1999" – Prince (1982)
59. "Van Lear Rose" – Loretta Lynn (2004)
60. "Vitalogy" – Pearl Jam (1994)
61. "The Band" – The Band (1969)
62. "Thriller" – Michael Jackson (1982)
63. "Synchronicity" – The Police (1983)
64. "Every Picture Tells a Story" – Rod Stewart (1971)
65. "The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill" – Lauryn Hill (1998)
66. "Burnin'" – Bob Marley and the Wailers (1973)
67. "Let's Get It On" – Marvin Gaye (1973)
68. "Led Zeppelin II" – Led Zeppelin (1969)
69. "Dookie" – Green Day (1994)
70. "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" – Elton John (1973)
71. "Evil Empire" – Rage Against the Machine (1996)
72. "Vs." – Pearl Jam (1993)
73. "Stand!" – Sly and the Family Stone (1969)
74. "Magical Mystery Tour" – The Beatles (1967)
75. "Mermaid Avenue" – Billy Bragg and Wilco (1998)
76. "Desire" – Bob Dylan (1976)
77. "I Never Loved a Man the Way I Love You" – Aretha Franklin (1967)
78. "Tommy" – The Who (1969)
79. "Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols" –Sex Pistols
(1977)
80. "Bookends" – Simon and Garfunkel (1968)
81. "Armed Forces" – Elvis Costello (1979)
82. "Help!" – The Beatles (1965)
83. "Surrealistic Pillow" – Jefferson Airplane (1967)
84. "To Bring You My Love" – PJ Harvey (1995)
85. "The Marshall Mathers LP" – Eminem (2000)
86. "Aftermath" – The Rolling Stones (1966)
87. "Mr. Tambourine Man" – The Byrds (1965)
88. "Sail Away" – Randy Newman (1972)
89. "Sticky Fingers" – The Rolling Stones (1971)
90. "I'm Still in Love with You" – Al Green (1972)
91. "Astral Weeks" – Van Morrison (1968)
92. "Is This It?" – The Strokes (2001)
93. "Superunknown" – Soundgarden (1994)
94. "Between the Buttons" – The Rolling Stones (1967)
95. "All That You Can't Leave Behind" – U2 (2000)
96. "Some Girls" – The Rolling Stones (1978)
97. "Franz Ferdinand" – Franz Fredinand (2004)
98. "Paul's Boutique" – Beastie Boys (1989)
99. "Melancholy and the Infinite Sadness" – Smashing Pumkins (1995)
100. "Déjà Vu" – Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young (1970)
101. "Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme" – Simon and Garfunkel (1966)
102. "Darkness on the Edge of Town" – Bruce Springsteen (1978)
103. "American Idiot" – Green Day (2004)
104. "The Chronic" – Dr. Dre (1992)
105. "The Clash" – The Clash (1977)
106. "Otis Blue/Otis Redding Sings Soul" – Otis Redding (1966)
107. "Diesel and Dust" – Midnight Oil (1988)
108. "Car Wheels on a Gravel Road" – Lucinda Williams (1998)
109. "The Who Sings My Generation" – The Who (1966)
110. "Remain in Light" – Talking Heads (1980)
111. "Odelay" – Beck (1996)
112. "The Basement Tapes" – Bob Dylan and The Band (1975)
113. "Green River" – Creedence Clearwater Revival (1969)
114. "Murmur" – R.E. M. (1983)
115. "Ramones" – The Ramones (1976)
116. "Dusty in Memphis" – Dusty Springfield (1969)
117. "This Year's Model" – Elvis Costello (1978)
118. "Cosmo's Factory" – Creedence Clearwater Revival (1970)
119. "Dirty Mind" – Prince (1980)
120. "I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got" – Sinead O'Connor (1990)
121. "The Velvet Underground" – The Velvet Underground (1969)
122. "We're Only in It for the Money" – Frank Zappa and the Mothers of
Invention (1968)
123. "After the Gold Rush" – Neil Young (1970)
124. "The Who Sell Out" – The Who (1967)
125. "Metallica" (The Black Album) – Metallica (1991)
126. "Nebraska" – Bruce Springsteen (1982)
127. "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot" – Wilco (2002)
128. "New York" – Lou Reed (1989)
129. "Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere" – Neil Young (1969)
130. "Out of Time" – R.E.M. (1991)
131. "Time Out of Mind" – Bob Dylan (1997)
132. "Straight Outta Compton" – N.W.A (1988)
133. "Doolittle" – The Pixies (1989)
134. "Monster" – R.E.M. (1994)
135. "Bring the Family" – John Hiatt (1987)
136. "The Smiths" – The Smiths (1984)
137. "The Unforgettable Fire" – U2 (1984)
138. "The Velvet Underground and Nico" – The Velvet Underground (1967)
139. "Natty Dread" – Bob Marley and the Wailers (1975)
140. "Tonight's the Night" – Neil Young (1975)
141. "Zen Arcade" – Husker Du (1984)
142. "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots" – Flaming Lips (2002)
143. "Rain Dogs" – Tom Waits (1985)
144. "Phrenology" – The Roots (2002)
145. "Freedom" – Neil Young (1989)
146. "Out of Our Heads" – The Rolling Stones (1965)
147. "Damn the Torpedoes" – Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers (1979)
148. "Superfly" – Curtis Mayfield (1972)
149. "Chutes Too Narrow" – The Shins (2003)
150. "Rum, Sodomy and the Lash" – The Pogues (1985)
151. "The Low End Theory" – A Tribe Called Quest (1991)
152. "Pleased to Meet Me" – The Replacements (1987)
153. "Swordfishtrombones" – Tom Waits (1983)
154. "Celebrity Skin" – Hole (1998)
155. "Dummy" – Portishead (1994)
156. "Quadrophenia" – The Who (1973)
157. "Hotel California" – The Eagles (1976)
158. "Definitely Maybe" – Oasis (1994)
159. "License to Ill" – Beastie Boys (1986)
160. "Ill Communication" – Beastie Boys (1994)
161. "Dirt" – Alice in Chains (1992)
162. "Electric Ladyland" – The Jimi Hendrix Experience (1968)
163. "The Harder They Come" soundtrack – various artists (1972)
164. "Willy and the Poor Boys" – Creedence Clearwater Revival (1969)
165. "Innervisions" – Stevie Wonder (1973)
166. "Lady Soul" – Aretha Franklin (1968)
167. "Fear of a Black Planet" – Public Enemy (1990)
168. "Stories From the City, Stories From the Sea" – PJ Harvey (2000)
169. "Court and Spark" – Joni Mitchell (1974)
170. "Rust Never Sleeps" – Neil Young (1979)
171. "Paul Simon" – Paul Simon (1972)
172. "Shoot Out the Lights" – Richard and Linda Thompson (1982)
173. "Daydream Nation" – Sonic Youth (1988)
174. "Forever Changes" – Love (1967)
175. "More Songs About Buildings and Food" – Talking Heads (1978)
176. "Suede" – Suede (1993)
177. "Pretenders" – The Pretenders (1980)
178. "Play" – Moby (1999)
179. "Dig Me Out" – Sleater-Kinney (1997)
180. "Entertainment!" – Gang of Four (1979)
181. "Let It Be" – The Replacements (1984)
182. "One Beat" – Sleater-Kinney (2002)
183. "The Battle of Los Angeles" – Rage Against the Machine (1999)
184. "Stankonia" – OutKast (2000)
185. "Different Class" – Pulp (1995)
186. "Houses of the Holy" – Led Zeppelin (1973)
187. "Let's Stay Together" – Al Green (1972)
188. "War" – U2 (1982)
189. "Mothership Connection" – Parliament (1976)
190. "Warren Zevon" – Warren Zevon (1976)
191. "Sublime" – Sublime (1996)
192. "Closer" – Joy Division (1981)
193. "3 Feet High and Rising" – De La Soul (1989)
194. "Exile in Guyville" – Liz Phair (1993)
195. "Cheap Thrills" – Big Brother and the Holding Company (1968)
196. "Face to Face" – The Kinks (1966)
197. "Vivid" – Living Colour (1988)
198. "Pretzel Logic" – Steely Dan (1974)
199. "Second Helping" – Lynyrd Skynyrd (1974)
200. "So" – Peter Gabriel (1986)

If anything, the recent albums welcomed into the nebulous rock canon (as demonstrated on the list above) are mainstream-crossover, Rolling Stone-approved records such as Is This It and Elephant.

"Maybe worth qf the piece in HHC this month asking why indie teens are happy to have Art Brut and The Killers alonside The Smiths and The Pixies on their iPod, but hip-hop teens aren't bumping Kool Moe Dee and Biz Markie alongside Lil Wayne and Kanye."

hip hop has never had much love for canons of old hip hop. or at least the audience doesnt, outside of the ppl that read wax poetics. its a very small minority. think how many 'expanded' rock reissues there are compared to hip hop ones. maybe in 20 years that will change though.

So... when hip-hop is as old as rock is now (so maybe 20 years time?) will the hip-hop canon have exactly the same problems we're discussing here (ie, these are issues that arise with any canon), or will it be different (ie, these are issues specific to "rock", in whatever definition of rock we're using here).

-- Dom Passantino, Monday, November 5, 2007 10:58 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

the rockist emphasis on the album is part of the problem for old hip-hop and house and whatnot.

hip hop has never had much love for canons of old hip hop.

yes and no. basically yes.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00004NK4M.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

hip hop has had even less love for groups from the 90s pretending to be old groups from the early 80s (jurassic 5).

Trust me, there are a lot of folks out there who place huge stock in the hiphop canon. The numbers don't compare to the amount of people with Soulja Boy or "A Bay Bay" as their ringtone, but the numbers do exist and they are as staunch or more so as any adherent of the rock canon.

The hiphop canon tends to prefer 90s rappers acting like 90s rappers over 90s rappers playing dressup.

You can tell that's a Yank canon rathert than a Brit one above, cos Pearl Jam / Smashing Pumpkins and Radiohead / Oasis swapped places. LOL @ nationalism.

I don't think it's even a nationalism thing (at least on the American side) so much as an ease of access thing. (And it's a Seattle-area paper, of course they're going to fellate Pearl Jam)

Ah, good point.

fwiw, Radiohead are probably the most popular in America at the moment, probably because they cross over into multiple canons in a way that the Pumpkins don't. (although you could always argue that their just simply making better music, but that rarely affects anything)

...most popular of those bands in America at the moment...

One thing that's really surprised me is the prevelence of Radiohead in the 'my own top ten 2007' posts made on the Stylus articles over the last week; all these kids with Okkervil River and Caribou and stuff in their lists, and then all dumping Radiohead at number one almost before they've heard it, just because it's Radiohead and not that weirdy anymore. It's like Pavlov's dog. That to me is one of the most interesting manifestations of the canon; the slavish adoration of Radiohead. Cos I just don't get anything from their music beyond "this is quite good", but they obviously tick so many fucking boxes for so many people.

...that they're just... (and I will stop correcting myself now. any other errors will remain)

I don't even get that out of them, but yeah, past favorites tend to be given the benefit of the doubt more often than not.

Is Trout Mask Replica still a canon album now? Cos that's on every list that I've seen (apart from the one just posted . . . ) and isn't really easy or obvious or not-obscure. (I mean, it may well be not obscure now, but only because it's always on canon album lists.)

This depends on the audiences' mainstream taste too. While contemporary R&B was at its most dominant 4-5 years ago, you would also see old Aretha Franklin and Otis Redding albums performing unusually well in those polls. Britpop lost a lot of pace back then, but with bands such as Franz Ferdinand, Killers, Coldplay etc. being very popular today, Britpop (not to mention Britpop's roots) performs better these days.

Beatles have always dominated those lists, but during Britpop they did more so than they had done since the early 70s. Now they are back on a more normal level again, like they will always be up there, but not as completely dominant unless they become cited to the same extent by recent bands as they were in the mid to late 90s.

Also, Bruce Springsteen's album sank during the entire 90s. He was considered an act of decreasing relevance. These days, with everyone from Killers to Arcade Fire singing his praises and Springsteen himself selling loads of albums again, you also see "Born To Run" and "Born In The USA" climbing those lists once more.

Some of the albums will always be there in some kind of position though. The Beatles' 65-69 albums output, "Pet Sounds", "Velvet Underground And Nico", those 3 Bob Dylan albums, "Dark Side Of The Moon", "Ziggy Stardust" and Hunky Dory, "Astral Weeks", "Nevermind", those two Jimi Hendrix albums, "Never Mind The Bollocks", "The Clash" and "London Calling", "Purple Rain" and "Sign "O" The Times", "OK Computer", "Automatic For The People", "Joshua Tree" and "Achtung Baby". Those albums are more or less "stuck" in The Top 100 and will always be there. Same about mid 90s Blur and Oasis in the UK polls.

'always' is a long time. i don't think those albums will be there forever.

When was the canon first 'codified'? When did the first 'top 100 ever' lists start emerging?

The rock canon was generally starting to happen during the late 60s, in that rock "grew up" and became more "serious" and thus also more interested in its own history. By then, however, there were still few cohesive albums available, so it was mostly about giving Elvis Presley, Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry etc. the place in early rock history that they were felt to deserve, alongside the 60s stuff that had never been "forgotten" like 50s rock was at the time.

The first "Top 100 albums" lists were compiled during the early 70s, and the 60s/early 70s albums you saw in those lists are mostly still up there. NME's all time Top 100 from 1974 is often seen as the first Top 100 ever poll by a major publication and it looked like this:
Sgt pepper’s lonely hearts club band - The Beatles
Blond on blond - Bob Dylan
Pet sounds - Beach Boys
Revolver - The Beatles
Highway 61 Revisited - Bob Dylan
Electric Ladyland - Jimi Hendrix
Are you Experienced? - Jimi Hendeix
Abby Road - The Beatles
Sticky Fingers - The Rolling Stones
Music from big pink - The Band
Let it bleed - The Rolling Stones
Layla - Derek & The dominoes
The Velvet underground & Nico - The velvet underground
Golden Decade Vol 1 - Chuck Berry
Rubber soul - The Beatles
Tommy - The Who
Bridge over troubled water - Simon & Garfunkel
Hunky Dory - David Bowie
Beggar’s Banquet - The Rolling Stones
Disraeli Gears - Cream
Piper at the gates of dawn - Pink Floyd
My Generation - The Who
Crosby, Stills & Nash - Crosby, Stills & Nash
The Rolling Stones - The Rolling Stones
Imagine - John Lennon
Tapestry - Carole King
Ziggy Stardust - David Bowie
Freewheelin’ - Bob Dylan
Back in the USA - MC5
Deja Vu - Crosby, Stills & Nash
The Band - The Band
Gasoline Alley - Rod Stewart
A Hard Day’s Night - The Beatles
Every Picture tells a story - Rod Stewart
Led Zeppelin 4 - Led Zeppelin
The Doors - The Doors
In the court of the crimson king - King Crimson
Exile on main street - The Rolling Stones
The Beatles - The Beatles
The Soft Machine - Soft Machine
Hot Rats - Frank Zappa
Traffic - Traffic
Trout Mask Replica - Captain Beefheart
Music from a dolls house - Family
Talking Book - Stevie Wonder
Anthology - Smoky Bacon & The Miracles
Strange Days - The Doors
Led Zeppelin 2 - Led Zeppelin
Otis Blue - Otis Redding
Stand up - Jethro Tull
Impressions, The - Big 16
Love - Forever Changes
Young, Neil - Everybody knows this is Nowhere
Taylor, James - Sweet Baby James
Byrds, The - Fifth Dimension
Wings - Band on the Run
Bowie, David - The Man who sold the World
Mothers of Invention, The - We're Only in it for the Money
Rolling Stones, The - Get your Ya-Yas out
Beck, Jeff, Group - Beck-Ola
Stooges, Iggy & the - Raw Power
Beach Boys, The - Smiley Smile
Morrison, Van - Astral Weeks
Velvet Underground, The - Loaded
Franklin, Aretha - Greatest Hits
Beatles, The - With the Beatles
Mitchell, Joni - Blue
Mothers of Invention, The - Freak Out
Young, Neil - After the Gold Rush
Stills, Stephen - Stephen Stills
Winter, Johnny - Johnny Winter and
Cocker, Joe - With a Little Help from my Friends
Yes - The Yes Album
Morrison, Van - Moondance
Rundgren, Todd - A Wizard, a True Star
Lennon, John - Plastic Ono Band
Jefferson Airplane, The - Crown of Creation
Doors, The L.A. Woman
Sly & the Family Stone - There's a Riot Going On
Who, The - Who's Next
Country Joe & the Fish - Electric Music for the Mind & Body
Johnson, Robert - King of the Delta Blues Singers
Beach Boys, The - Best of the Beach Boys Volume 1
Mitchell, Joni - Songs for a Seagull
Mayall's, John, Bluesbreakers - Bluesbreakers
Traffic - Mr Fantasy
Dylan, Bob - Bringing it all back home
Presley, Elvis - Greatest Hits Volume 2
Velvet Underground, The - White Light/White Heat
Moby Grape - Moby Grape
Big Brother & the Holding Co. - Cheap Thrills
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon
Doctor John - Gris-Gris
Wonder, Stevie - Music of the Mind
Roxy Music - Stranded
Beach Boys, The - Surf's Up
Newman, Randy - 12 Songs
Spirit - The 12 Dreams of Dr Sardonicus
Miller, Steve, Band - Sailor

i don't think those albums will be there forever.

They will for the next 100 years at least. And it is also likely that those albums (at least some of them) will remain the Mozart/Beethoven/Bach of the 20th century.

A Canon that will last a thousand years.

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/9959/geirpawspi4.png

Well, Beethoven is far from having lasted a thousand years, but I don't think I'm very controversial in predicting he will.

A Canon that will last a thousand years.

-- Noodle Vague, Monday, November 5, 2007 12:46 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

lololololololololol

But it's kind of like classic novels. There are some that have passed across the years quite well (e.g. Gulliver's Travels) and are still enjoyable, and others that are a bit of a slog nowadays, but are nonetheless, for various academic and historical reasons, still held high within the literary canon.

It's like I can't really imagine anybody reading "Finnegan's Wake" for pleasure (though no doubt someone will call me on this) in the same way I find it difficult to imagine listening to Bob Dylan for pleasure (though no doubt again....), but then mere pleasure or enjoyment are not what they were lauded for in the first place.

So the likes of "Highway 61 Revisited" or "Trout Mask Replica" may indeed appear on canonical lists in 100 years time as a matter of duty - however I suspect that they will be little-owned, and even lesser listened to. Except maybe by a few academics and obscurist snobs.....

I find TMR an enjoyable listen.

daddio!

In your fusty college chamber.....

Nope, never did.

So the likes of "Highway 61 Revisited" or "Trout Mask Replica" may indeed appear on canonical lists in 100 years time as a matter of duty - however I suspect that they will be little-owned, and even lesser listened to.

"Trout Mask Replica" has never been listened to by anyone else than weirdos. Not even in its own time.

As for "Highway 61 Revisited" it still sells quite well as a back catalogue item, and it isn't mainly baby boomers that are buying it.

^^^no

i agree with geir.

i have bought 'highway 61' twice.

^^^

moratorium

on the hats I mean

Weirdos or not, TMR is still a canonical album. It can't just be weirdos who keep putting it in best! album! ever! polls. So who DOES put it in? Is it a simple case of list writers who feel obliged to put it in because of previous lists?

How do you think TMR sounds to a 13-year-old kid these days? Challenging? Confusing? Pleasant? I'm honestly curious.

old.

I could play it to my 9 and 7 years old kids, let's see what they think.

I did play "Bat Chain Puller" to Alice back when she was 5, she was most interested, even turned it up in the car to hear it better.

They'll either think it's funny or scary (or both). Just don't let them see the cover.

Pssh, Alice has worn stranger things than that. (There's a picture of her wearing an elephant mask, in nursery). Although it would be a different matter if they could smell the fish, granted.

TMR has always been very groovy. Pretty funny, too.

Why speculate when someone already went through the work of coming up with the closest thing as anyone can call "The Canon"?

http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/

TMR is #54, which includes pretty much any list you could think of. It's an awesome resource. I can get lost in it. I like to think most lists are meant to turn people on to stuff that may not always be top sellers, not to inspire people to piss and moan. But I could be wrong.

Canon lists = sci-fi, in that concerns/interests of the time are paramount over anything else.

Acclaimed Music, like all those polls, may still be provocative to people who are pissed off from not finding Modern Talking, Mariah Carey, Boney M, Baccara, Herman's Hermits, Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera in the lists.

Plus some people are kind of blinded by the Top 100 and the order, and don't care that their own favourites may also be somewhere a bit down the list. Personally I see no reason to get pissed off by the fact that my favourite album of all time is only currently at #728 in the Acclaimed Music list. At least it is there, in the Top 3000, as are most of my other favourite albums too.

Canon lists = sci-fi, in that it started as a compact mass of "things you have to own", followed by the big bang of myriad styles and musical form offshoots, until we get to this point where there are a load of planets, and vising all and only the important ones will actually shorten your chances of hitting a stream of stuff you actually like.

BTW, no less than McCartney collaborater Elvis Costello is supposedly a huge Beefheart fan, Geir. Is he enough of a weirdo for you? I wonder...

Can I say Andy Partridge and Colin Moulding?

I knew I shouldn't have given specific examples.....

The wider point I was making was that in most existing artistic genres (which are generally older than popular music) there are "canonical" works which are there for their historical/academic significance rather than because they still urgently "affect" people today.

I suspect this kind of thing will happen with rock music so that some albums will always be "great" albums because they introduced a certain musical style, or caused a certain degree of controversy, even if no-one in the future really enjoys them.

I think "canonisation" introduces a certain degree of petrification - part of the enjoyment of discovering music is the freedom to form one's own opinion. Canonisation inhibits this process to an extent, as your "acceptable" response already becomes quite limited (i.e. you SHOULD like it)

Astral Weeks sucks, btw.