gradual removal of vocals from house and techno

I'd say, originally, that it had more to do with dance artists not aiming for radio play and pop chart positions anymore. When I listen to early house and techno, I hear a bunch of tracks that are really trying to be hits. And, of course, with a few rare exceptions, hits have vocals.

Yeah, its the gentrification of house into increasingly stylized, sophisticated instrumental music. The real current equivalent of all that old house and techno are Ministry Of Sound compilations, and theres plenty of vocals on those.

dance artists not aiming for radio play and pop chart positions anymore

this is probably wrong, because a lot of the dance stuff that hit the charts around the mid-90s didn't have vocals. and i really doubt that stuff like "house nation" was trying to chart.

Yeah, its the gentrification of house into increasingly stylized, sophisticated instrumental music. The real current equivalent of all that old house and techno are Ministry Of Sound compilations, and theres plenty of vocals on those.

-- Siegbran

anybody who says "gentrification" when talking about music is ALWAYS wrong, especially if they listen to lame teenage rebel crap like black metal

just kidding, but please don't say "gentrification"

Well, techno never really had much in the way of vocals save for a smattering of tracks did it? Octave One's 'Blackwater' springs to mind and Kevin Saundersons stuff with Inner City of course. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Vocals in house music on the other hand seem go in and out of vogue. You'd walk into Blackmarket or Uptown in the mid-90's and there'd be heaps of vocal heavy stuff from the US whilst UK 'deep house' was predominantly instrumental. Naked Records emerged later and and added vocals to the deep house sound (and sent met to sleep).

So vocals in house will surely make a comeback again at some point. Not sure about techno though - they were never really there in the first place...

I wonder if there is a technical dimension to this also. Most pop music with vocals is either slower (80 to 100 or so bpm) or faster (160 bpm, but really you could call it teh same as the slow stuff if you count half-time) than house and techno so maybe singers and lyricists are used to writing lyrics and singing them at those speeds. Just try some of your favorite lyrics and sing along to a techno or house track. In many cases it's not very easy at all, and sounds rushed.

ok that's kind of grasping at straws a little (a lot?), but I that mechanical/technical explanations for lots of music phenomena get overlooked in favor of sociological/whatever explanations.

maybe gentrification is the wrong word but i think there's something to the idea that as techno and house developed strands for the "headz" those strands dispensed with vocals, which were seen as pop

and yeah "haircut house" and "up front house" is still chockablock with vocals

Isn't this a matter of technology, really? In the 80s, sampling was new, and it was kind of funny to have these stuttering vocal samples. After a while, it got tired and those vocal samples disappeared. Today there are still techno with vocals, but that it's usually a guest vocalist singing a more conventional song.

just kidding, but please don't say "gentrification"

I just want my pianos back.

dance artists not aiming for radio play and pop chart positions anymore

I think there's some truth to this though, back in the nineties there where even vocal radio edits of tunes like "Higher State of Consciousness" and "Backtired II", even though the instrumental mixes were much more liked among enthusiasts (and these days are the only ones people remember).

I think Sam is right about techno, it was always more detached and intellectual, and therefore vocals were never an integral part of it. In fact I can think of few classic techno tunes with prominent vocals besides those Inner City ones (which always sounded housey to me anyway). I'm not very familiar with Juan Atkins's stuff though, did he use much vocals?

Some general theorizing in this thread I started years ago:

Vocals samples in electronic music: necessary or unnecessary?

I can't say I've really followed house in the 00's, but hasn't minimalism been the trend in it for the last few years, which would explain the lack of vocals. Vocals usually add an emotive layer to a tune, which makes it sound less minimal.

It might be interesting to look at trance too: early nineties trance was pretty much instrumental, and it became really popular when people started adding vocals to it. The career of someone like Paul van Dyk illustrates the change perfectly.

Europe never really had much of a tradition of vocal house music itself did it? Maybe it's something that's drifted in with Spitcher, Hell, Chelonis and others. I think the 'swinging back and forth' thing is probably right.

I think you're right, in the nineties German house (which I'm most familiar with) at least never had much vocals. I think it had something to do with differentiating oneself from Eurodance, I remember reading interviews of people like Westbam who pretty much stated that proper electronic music shouldn't sound like pop, that Eurodance had bastardized "real" techno, etc.

There are vocals all over Juan Atkins' stuff throughout the 80's, so it definitely didn't start with him, or IMO, with the first wave of Detroit techno producers. The *second* wave in the early 90's, however, is a different story, with guys like Robert Hood, Richie Hawtin (Canadian, yes), and Jeff Mills pushing toward harder, more minimal tracks that were antithetical to the use of vocals.

Also: the rise of trance music and delivering emotion via the "breakdown" instead of with vocals.

I remember reading interviews of people like Westbam who pretty much stated that proper electronic music shouldn't sound like pop

really weird coming from the guy who made shit like 'Wizards Of The Sonic'

"Wizars of the Sonic" is not shit! Anyway, even if it was a populist, melody-based tune (and most of his stuff from that era was much less melodic), it didn't feature any singing and it was still miles away from Eurodance, so you could see where he was coming from. Not that I agree with him or anything.

Unless I am thinking of a different track entirely it wasn't that far away from Eurodance at all really just a bit faster. Also he must've hated his wife's tunes!

Wizards of the Sonic

It's a catchy tune, sure, but doesn't really sound like 2 Unlimited or The Real McCoy to me. And even though Marusha did that, er, interesting cover of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow", most of her tunes are far from Eurodance too.

steve is it really true that there's no vocal tradition in european dance music? italo, synthpop, EBM all had lots of vocals, didn't they?

maybe gentrification is the wrong word but i think there's something to the idea that as techno and house developed strands for the "headz" those strands dispensed with vocals, which were seen as pop

-- Tracer Hand

that's all well and good but if you read the thread starting post carefully you'll see that i'm mainly interested in nailing down WHEN and HOW rather than WHY

But "how" and "why" are just two sides of the same question (unless you think social processes aren't reflected in music at all), and "when" is hardly an interesting question without the other two.

It might be interesting to look at trance too: early nineties trance was pretty much instrumental, and it became really popular when people started adding vocals to it. The career of someone like Paul van Dyk illustrates the change perfectly.

I don't think this holds - vocals were (and still are) typically only tacked on the shortened radio edits that appear after the tune already is a huge hit in the clubs/compilations/etc, the big monster-breakdown trance anthems of 1997-2002 were all instrumentals: Cafe Del Mar '97, 1998/1999/2000, Airwave, Superstring remix, For An Angel, Gouryella, Finished Symphony, Xpander, Greece 2000, Out Of The Blue, Universal Nation, Flight 643, Urban Train, even the really cheesy stuff like Children, Meet You At The Love Parade and 9PM (Till I Come). Vocals in trance are still the exception rather than the norm - certainly compared to house.

tom moulton, with a razor blade, in the attic?

Okay, maybe I was exaggerating there, but before the pop trance era trance had almost no vocals at all, not even in radio edits, so it seems like one reason for all those vocal edits was to appeal to the masses, which was my main point.

(x-post)

I find it really hard to believe such a quote from Westbam, who has always embraced the pop/populist aspect more than nearly everyone in Germany. Now Sven Väth or Talla 2xlc or Cosmic Baby or Sven Röhrig, that's another thing, the original trance guys were definitely a reaction to all the cheesy rave around at the time.

Strings Of Life first came out in 1987

When I think of vocals in the earlier underground dance releases I usually associate it with ny garage stuff, not chicago or detroit (despite cybotron - I mean that barely counts as vocal material, to me) and I don't think ny garage caught on as big in europe?

B-b-but original Chicago house had plenty of vocals too...

my Larry Heard catalog seems to not agree with you

Though I guess early European house/techno took more from Detroit and acid house than the vocal stuff.

(x-post)

the thing is I don't think I even agree with the thread question vis a vis "gradual removal" but then again when I decided to become interested in the history and go back and dig for UNDISPUTED DANCE CLASSIX I was specifically seeking out non-vocal thump boom bleep material, so I'm surely biased

Now Sven Väth or Talla 2xlc or Cosmic Baby or Sven Röhrig, that's another thing, the original trance guys were definitely a reaction to all the cheesy rave around at the time.

Väth ended up doing some pretty cheesy stuff too ("Fusion"!) but yeah

despite cybotron - I mean that barely counts as vocal material, to me

really? 'Alleys Of Your Mind' and 'Clear' are pretty much Actual Songs aren't they? tho the vocals were not really the big selling point sure

my Larry Heard catalog seems to not agree with you

What about very essential tunes like "Move Your Body", "Your Love", "Love Can't Turn Around", "Promised Land", etc? Larry Heard was hardly the only house pioneer.

What about everything Larry Heard did with Robert Owens? Plenty of vocals on Fingers Inc!

Probably half or more of my fave early house and techno stuff has vocals.

also The It.

see that's what I mean about my bias.
still though it probably has quite a bit to do with most producers catching on that you could make excellent, fairly popular records without ever leaving the home studio by just leaving the singer out.

what great house and techno tunes would be seriously diminished by removing the vocals? (let's set aside the diva-led numbers for the time being.) i can think of some green velvet, and, ummm...

"sugar daddy" by secret knowledge

see 'ya'll ready for this' thread

'promised land', 'it's alright', 'baby wants to ride', 'let the music use you'...all nice instrumentals but the vocals make big difference for sure

re vocal techno: 'dominator' without vocals = no longer clear whether domination is really on the agenda as opposed to a less ambitious but still aggressive objective

these days i really prefer vocal stuff whereas ten years ago i wasn't so fussed

I think nowadays non-vocal stuff is just more likely to sound half-assed or badly dated. we've come full circle

maybe i'm splitting hairs but MANY many many of the "y'all ready for this" songs are diva vocals or diva loops. there's no reason to bracket these of course -- they're still vocals. i guess i make a distinction between vocals used as textures and vocals that carry the tune and tell a story. "baby wants to ride" does this, even though it's basically a rap (ditto "perspex sex" and "bang bang (you're mine)")

basically a rap

"When I'm with you, I believe..."

does Robert Owens count as a diva?

that track he did with Photek - still one of the best vocal House Songs this decade!

But "how" and "why" are just two sides of the same question (unless you think social processes aren't reflected in music at all), and "when" is hardly an interesting question without the other two.

-- Tuomas

when and where is MUCH more important, otherwise you're just speculating on social processes but without any rigor

yup, a classic all the way

mixmag october 1995 - method man cover

mixmaster morris, current top 10
t. power - "self evident truths of an intuitive mind" (sour)
attica blues - "blueprint" (photek/reece/hawtin remixes) (mowax)
aphex twin - "mashed potatoes" (warp)
spring heeled jack - "there are strings" (rough trade)
as one - "reflections on reflections" (new electronica)
dr. rockit - "ready to rocket" (clear)
freeform - "elastic speakers" (worm interface)
photek - "consciousness" (metalheadz)
joe nation - "zvona tortilla" (chill out)
dicabor - "dicabor" (space teddy)

juan atkins, current top 10
model 500 - "starlight" (white)
eddie "flashin" fowlkes - "planet claire" (back ii basics)
too funk - "urban haze" (ferox)
blue minds - "trouble shooter" (aqua blue)
boo williams - "planet earth" (relief)
claude young - "changing factors" (frictional)
robert hood - "home" (tresor) (i think robert hood is doing the march 08 fabric)
model 500 - "nightdrive" (metroplex)
kraftwerk - "numbers" (white)
aux 88 - "aux mind" (direct beat)

notable: janet jackson design of a decade gets a 9/10 as does dave angel's tales of the unexpected

there are at least 4 amazing things on morris' list

speaking of claude young i am listening to villalobos fabric birthday mix right now and "acid wash conflict" is on right now

juan's list = 9/10 killer tracks

luv u juan

i think "reality" was a shit word but i meant that hearing a voice somehow makes one aware of their surroundings. what is that voice? it's very difficult to ignore. and you're right, it's language, not sound.

-- elan

hearing a voice often does the opposite, cf storytelling, poetry, oration, opera etc

mixmag jan 1996
1995: we never had it so good

dj charts 1995

harvey
soundgarden - "black hole sun" (geffen)
ol' dirty bastard - "shim shim ya" (electra)
salsoul orchestra - "salsoul rainbow" (henry st)
wood, brass and steel - "funk-a-nova" (loft classics)
"free bugle" ep (black cock)
3 dee - "deliver me" (baseline)
shirley bassey - "light my fire" (united artists)
jasper street co - "a feelin'" (azuli)
mary j blige - "you bring me joy" (mca)
dj food - "peace" (original and remix) (ninja/open)

little louie vega
black magic - "freedom to make it funky" (strictly rhythm)
donnell rush - "don't feel like doin' nothin'" (maw)
leee john - "power of love" (freetown)
frankie knuckles - "walking" (virgin)
bucketheads - "got myself together" (henry st/big beat)
karen pollack - "reach out to me" (hippie remix) (dig it) (should that be hipp-e?)
freddy turner - "don't turn me down" (acetate)
judy albanse - "happy" (maxi)
mood ii swing - "i'm calling you" (power music)
michael jackson - "this time around" (morales dub) (epic)

slam
cajmere - "horny" (remixes) cajual
rob d - "clubbed to death" (mowax)
jeff mills - "purpose maker" (axis)
scottie deep - "brooklyn beats" (henry st.)
kenny larkin - "metaphor" (r&s lp)
dj sneak - "moon doggy" (cajual)
visit venus - "music for space tourism vol 1" (white)
green velvet - "flash" (remixes) (relief)
drexciya - "journey home" (warp)
slam - "positive education" (soma)

sometimes i think harvey is dope but a lot of the time he makes me roll my eyes.

louie vega is such a fucking teddy bear

nice to see slam are as humorless as usual.

one of these days i will hear that bday fabric mix. "acid wash conflict" is such a great title for a track.

ok that's enough transcribing for now, but i'll do more tomorrow.

wow tricky thanks for helping keep this thread surprising and awesome!

dr. rockit - "ready to rocket" (clear)

is herbert 90s stuff good (i like 'cafe de flore')

claude young - "changing factors" (frictional)

all time JAM

karen pollack - "reach out to me" (hippie remix)= Hippie Torrales

Until Tim F's post, this thread was maddeningly imprecise. And there's still a big gay elephant in the room. As Tim makes clear, there may be a gradual removal of vocals from house and techno in certain scenes and at various times. So it should be noted that in MOST gay clubs in the US and Canada (not sure about other English-speaking countries although I imagine it's not all that different), there has never been any kind of removal of vocals from house music. Not only that, song structure still reigns supreme. Two kinds of song dominate: diva house or house remixes of current pop/R&B hits. Just look at the Billboard club charts which dovetail with many gay club playlists: the ubiquitous Martha Wash, remixes of Jennifer Lopez, Rihanna, Seal, Britney Spears, etc. It hasn't changed much since the late 1990s when I was spinning Martha Wash and remixes of Madonna, Natalie Imbruglia, Celine Dion, etc. in gay clubs. And the song/vocal focus stretches back to garage and disco.

Yes, yes, instrumental/minimal vocal tracks did and do get played in gay clubs, particularly in the early years of disco. Now and then, I could slip in something like "Plastic Dreams" (although given how transcendent that track is, I doubt that's saying much). But if you forego the vocals for too long, spin too many dubs, venture into harder techno variants, etc., you're done. (Which is one of many reasons why I so adore bitch tracks so much but that's for another thread.)

I'm not saying that whatever gets played in gay clubs or charts on Billboard determines THE history of dance music. But before you can ask a question about "the" gradual removal of vocals from house and techno, you have to determine where precisely and with what players this removal has happened. Hence, Tim's comments on scenes.

For anyone interested in why vocals will probably never be removed from house music popular in gay clubs/with gay audiences, check out Walter Hughes' "In the Empire of the Beat: Discipline and Disco," one of the best academic essays I've ever read on dance music. I had a pdf of it. Just email me if you want.

Essay question: does a removal a vocals from house music necessarily imply heteronormativity at work?

yeah but this thread is about european mainstream hetero house + techno, not "pop dance" (ie your jennifer lopez remixes), nor is it "diva house" (which i'd call "US garage")

there are fairly vocal-heavy straight scenes too - in particular i'm thinking of the kind of deep house clubs that run the gamut from things like masters at work and osunlade to moodymann, theo parrish and the edges of broken beat, even throwing in things like afrobeat and fluffy hip hop / r'n'b like peven everett and slum village and whatnot

but yeah, in case it wasn't explicit from the thread title, i'm curious about how mainstream house/techno/minimal moved away from vocals

there are fairly vocal-heavy straight scenes too

Of course there is (although some MAW tracks were huge in gay clubs).

but yeah, in case it wasn't explicit from the thread title, i'm curious about how mainstream house/techno/minimal moved away from vocals

If you want people to drop "gentrification," then you should do the same with "mainstream." But no, it wasn't explicit from the title nor your original post. Thanx for clarifying.

so what word do i use for "mainstream"?

"Bozelka"

You said "hetero house" earlier, then swtiched to "mainstream."

"hetero house" ?? Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron?

Not in the least. It's an extremely gay genre.

Oh sorry. Read that the wrong way.

Well, I don't know. If someone called, oh, Ricardo Villalobos "hetero house," it wouldn't ruffle my feathers.

(although some MAW tracks were huge in gay clubs)

the India factor?

now i'm not gay but i thought she was awesomes ten years ago heheh

Right. But not just her. Tons of stuff on those BBE MAW boxes were huge gay club hits.

i want to read this thread but do not have time! argh

is herbert 90s stuff good (i like 'cafe de flore')

Can't go wrong with this: http://www.discogs.com/release/464

Well, I like vocals.

i am glad people are enjoying these!

jumping onwards to mixmag july 1996 - fugees cover, "biggest ever issue"

essential mix slam 9th june (sorry for the slam repeat, but i bet this is very good)
part 1
round three - "acting crazy" (main street/maurizio)
maurizio - "m6" (chain reaction)
ephebe one - "think twice" (ferox)
r tyme - "r theme" (transmat)
tim harper - "i feel a groove" (peacefrog)
perpetual - "unreleased project" (growth)
i:cube - "disco cubizm" (versatile)
claude young & ian obrian - "no info" (ferox)
ron trent - "altered states" (djax) (tune!!!)
octave 1 - "eniac" (430 west)
dj sneak - "latin segul" (large)
kosmic messenger - "8th wonder" (astralwerks)
part 2
pornografix - "ohh yeah" (dirty house)
missing channel - "legions of hunger" (hardway)
the advent - "new beginnings" (internal) (does anyone else remember that awesome advent album on gigolo from 2001??)
hmc - "lsd" (juice)
purpose maker - "java" (millsart)
thomas baiznett - "chemicals" (visillusion)
themis - "thinok" (ideal trax)
tobias schmidt - "take that" (sativae)
carl craig - "at les" (planet e) (the most classic of all CC material?)
slam - "dark forces" (soma)
eddie flashin' fowlkes - "sex in zero gravity" (red planet)

kerri chandler, current top 10
mike delgado - "straight out of brooklyn" (83 west)
norma jean bell - "i'm the baddest bitch" (pandemonium) (she's right, you know?)
fonda rae and arnold jarvis - "you are the best" (freetown)
tribe of one - "hey buddy" (acetate)
st. germain - "alabama blues" (black science remix) (f comm)
vicky ryan - "mr. groove" (us urgent)
vincent floyd - "the magic ep" (subwoofer)
95 north - "jazz is" (acetate) (later released on strictly?)
roach motel - "the night" (jbo)
dj linus - "squirrel(ed)" (compose)

notable: classic balearic vol 1 (mastercuts) gets a 9/10, dmitri from paris's sacre bleu gets a 10

mixmag august '96 - why does speed kill more people than ecstasy?

ian pooley's all-time top 10
rhythim is rhythim - "it is what it is"
manuel goettsching - "e2e4"
urban tribe - "covert action"
popul vuh - "aguirre"
chapterhouse - "in my arms"
eric satie - "gymnopedies 1 - 3"
808 state - "pacific state" (i still have the 808 poster with all of the flags)
each track by flying saucer attack
the garden of eden - "the serpent in the garden"

album of the month - ATCQ - beats rhymes and life 10/10 (this album knocked my socks off too)

out yer box with a guy called gerald (e-z rollerblader hur hur)
intense - "positive nation" (good looking)
alex reece - "candles" (4th and bway)
axis - "solutions" (good looking)
primary motive - "electric blue" (creative source)
the geester - "mad air" (dubplate)
skycutter - "lost" (blood)
dr lake - "unknown" (mowax)
big bud - "millenium" (creative source)
jt's - "xpressive no. 002" (xpressive)

so we're leaning towads non-vocal tracks here. granted i am pulling these lists at random.

mixmag, september 96, what is tricky hiding from? (hmmm)

techsteppin
doc scott 10
grooverider - "untitled" (metalheadz)
jonny l - "symbiosis" (xl)
lemon d - "untitled" (dubplate)
dillinja - "untitled" (prototype)
ed rush - "remix" (dubplate)
justice - "untitled" (timeless)
ed rush - "sector 3" (dubplate)
roni size - "soul power" (v)
omni trio - spring heeled jack remix
doc scott - "shadow boxing" (31) (i still love the use of the amen in this track)

cj bolland's the analogue theatre gets a 10/10, eye q classics gets a 9 as does genaside ii's no life for the hunted

big tunes
way out west - "the gift"
funky green dogs - "fired up"
tin tin out - "adventures in tin tin out land"
paul van dyk - "beautiful place"
stretch and vern - "i'm alive"
new adventures - "everything's gone green" (is this good?)
bbe - "seven days and one week"
abstract truth - "get another plan"
satoshi tomiee presents shellshock - "k-jee"
basement jaxx - EP three ("fly life")
project 23 - "pleasure and pain"
salt tank - "swell"
hawke/god within - "acid funk"
jean philipe - "sexy thing"
kimara lovelace - "only you"

ian pooley is so underrated

ian pooley invented microhouse

that's why he's underrated, bwzing

you know who's overrated is uwe schmidt

"UWE WHO??"

"oh, youu mean senor coco~"*BANG*BANG*BANG* thump

I was wasting money on dude's chronic sampler diarrhea long before he came up with that particular schtick

Atom Heart - B² CD/Rather Interesting/RI 030
Item number: 180177699136


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History: 12 bids
Winning bidder: tatsutori(415)

alas, not underrated enough

btw i bought silver sound 60 and B.A.S.S. when they came out top that

still not gonna stop me from buying the coconut YMO album eventually

I cannot top that

I picked up the POD Communications collection disc in like 94 and actually thought it was a real compilation for a while

i also own

datacide - flowerhead
dandy jack - and the cosmic trousers
machine paisley - s/t
HAT - tokyo, frankfurt, new york
mono^tm - s/t
erik satin - light music

but still diggin for copies of

VSVN - very synthetic virtual noise
interactive music - s/t
atom heart - b2
datacide - ondas

oi

I could probably bring some similarly redundant junk to this party if I hadn't sold off over half my collection in the last year or so

kevin, not sure if my mail reached you but i'd love to read that Walter Hughes' "In the Empire of the Beat: Discipline and Disco" essay. can you email it to niche.ian AT gmail DOT com please?

Done. If anyone else wants it, you can email me @ (liliput) (the number one not o-n-e) at aol.

wait, i always confuse dandy jack (martin schopf) and uwe schmidt. did you do that too voonship? or is there some other connection?

oic - rather interesting