Which was the greater loss to music: John Lennon or Cliff Burton

http://projectabsurd.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/sign01.jpg

I suppose it should read "which DEATH was the greater loss to music". But I assume everyone on here understands the question.

http://www.cliffinourminds.com/ceremony/5.jpg

http://www.obituary.cc/photos/fallen/cliff98.jpg

http://www.deanguitars.com/userpics/lib5/Cliff%20Burton%20Tribute%20(3-18-2006)%201.jpg

voted cliff because i'd rather hear a solo album by him than whatever john lennon would've done next.

I actually like the last few Lennon offerings quite a bit. But none as much as I like the last real Metallica stuff.

Beatles > Metallica > solo Lennon

I didn't realize Burton was only 24. If John had passed at the same age, the choice would be undeniably obvious. As it stands, it's a bit more difficult.

This is an absurd comparison. But whatever: Cliff. For the simple reason that Lennon's sociomusicaletc. contribution to life/ the world was, upon his death, already a neat and fileable narrative arch, whereas Cliff was cut down in the midst of his upswing. Not that he would have had anywhere near the multi-pronged effect on popular music that Lennon had, but Burton's rock bass technique was, at the time, just as prescient as Peter Hook's. Based solely on the notable evolution from "Anesthesia (Pulling Teeth)" to "Orion," that Burton would have been even more influential within his genre than he ultimately was (given the black ice) was more or less a given.

Better in theory than execution, but a title for the ages nonetheless: The Thing That Should Not Let It Be

who?

Lennon. Metal didn't exactly suffer with Burton's loss (not that Lennon dying killed pop, but this is comparitive rather than superlative so.....)

Lennon. "Double Fantasy" was his best work since before leaving The Beatles, so obviously.

"Metal didn't exactly suffer with Burton's loss"

he might have kept metallica from sucking. we all suffered thru that.

^^^^^^^ troo!

http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/culture/2006/01/24/ga_metallica300x300.jpg

how many credits did cliff get on and justice for all? and were they for songs that didn't suck? i know he had written stuff with those dudes that would have gone on that album, but i'm no expert and don't know which ones. cuz the suck really did start with that album.

I thought the only credit he got was for the "When a man lies..." lyrics on that long instrumental.

I voted for Cliff. Lennon would've gone the Eric Clapton route, probably even jamming with Phil Collins at one point.

Burton would've insured that Metallica wouldn't start sucking, done more for the bass world, and made Pantera sound even more stupid.

IF IT WEREN'T FOR CLIFF DYING METALLICA WOULDN'T HAVE GONE DOWN THE BOB ROCK INFESTED COMMERCIAL ROUTE OF THE BLACK ALBUM!!!111!@

Yeah, I feel 90% convinced that Burton could have kept Metallica walking the line. They absolutely changed the music business with Justice... and could have continued making artful, uncompromising multi-platinum records.

Instead, with their soul dead and gone, they lost the mentor/older brother/keep-it-real Burton. And their conscience disappeared with his memory.

Lennon could have still done a lot of great thing (especially on a political level like Bono is trying to do). But Burton and Metallica were really defying the machine. It's tragic...

This is all conjecture! Newsted was a cool guy in the beginning of his run with Metallica, and even though he was still a newb by the time they were writing the black album, I doubt Cliff would've had any more power than Newsted to change the course of the Ulrich/Hetfield plunge into awfulness. You saw who won the guitar solos argument for St. Anger, right? It wasn't Kirk Hammett.

Lennon never had to compromise with anyone.

except yoko

he might have kept metallica from sucking. we all suffered thru that.

I dunno, I think Burton's partially lionized because he tragically died. I really don't know that there's much out there to support that he would have kept them going in the same direction because frankly why wouldn't he have been as taken in with the more successful direction they went when it would benefit him too?

Or, scenario B, he DOES take offense to it and tells Hetfield hell no. KNowing James, James probably would have fired him, being the control freak that he is.

So who knows!

At which point he quits and reunites with Mustaine in Megadeth?

oh now that woulda been fucked

Maybe Hetfield murdered Burton because Cliff kept insisting on covering "Seasons in the Sun" o ntheir next album

yeah, a hypothetical burton in megadeth doesn't work. ellefson was solid

well I really mostly meant it'd be fucked for the soap opera antics of it.

or what if Metallica and Megadeth had merged and became Metallideth

That line from "Peace Sells" is running through my head at least 19 hours a day.

I would've just like the San Francisco bassist of the 90s to not have been Les Claypool.

'peace sells', what a scorcher. thoughtful lyrics too

Peace Sells But Who's Buying is my favorite Megadeth album.

Megadeth also shredded when I saw them a few months ago. Very good selection of material (pretty much every album represented except Killing is My Business, goddammit of course they didn't play anything off of that! Oh, and risk, but that album was godawful)

In that photo, Ulrich looks just like the guy from Sean of the Dead right before he says "Get fucked, Four-eyes!"

Since we're operating in hypotheticals here, it would've been great for Cliff to get fired, move to LA and be the bassist in GnR instead of Duff. Later, at the show where James caught on fire, the amount of schaudenfreude would have been overwhelming.

last time i saw the deth, 'peace sells' and 'rust in peace' were very well represented. dave seemed to have a good concept of what the crowd was there to see

yea when he launched into Wake Up Dead I admit I went pretty nuts

"I doubt Cliff would've had any more power than Newsted to change the course of the Ulrich/Hetfield plunge into awfulness."

I don't know. I've read a lot on the subject and there always seems to be this sentiment that Burton was older, had to be wooed into the band in the first place, and kept them in jeans and t-shirts even when on tour with Ozzy during the Master of Puppets tour.

Certainly it's conjecture, but I believe that Burton would have kept them honest for at least another record or two.

And obviously Newsted was offered no say in anything for years...

The first cool thing he did was quit to join (and bankroll) Voivod.

I used to love Newsted's horribly pathetic bass solos on the black album tour, captured nicely in the Live Shit set.

He'd play some half-assed riffs and then run around the stadium pumping his fists.

That youtube "shredder" guy needs to add some bass solos.

the guy who creates the "<insert musician> shreds" videos and dubs over the real playing with hilariously funny guitar playing?

or something else?

Yeah, St. Sanders. We should email him.

hell yea, that guy is a fucking trip.

the one he did of Iron Maiden where he made it sound like they launched into the Ringling Brothers theme was classic.

the Santana one was pretty funny too

wow, I hadn't seen any of them except for Eddie Van Halen shreds. Too fucking funny!

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

cliff for sure.

if he was one it, i bet and justice might be my favorite metallica record, but as it stands its so wimpy sounding.

maybe he would've told them to edit that shit. that would've been good.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

haha

Redemption!

Though I did consider throwing Jim Henson into this as a wild card...

failyre

this is a really nice tribute to cliff from his father, we would have been 50:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEQuDkpxXGU

Did Cliff really have that much of a hand in their songwriting? Would it really have made THAT much difference? He was certainly a talented guy, but I don't really see how his death enabled Metallica to start sucking.. It was most certainly a turning point, but tons of bands get shitty as they get older..

See I think Metallica would have sucked anyway, even if Cliff had survived because he would've fucked off and left the band before they hit the Load period.

what about John Lennon vs. Dimebag Darrell? they both died of bullet guns on December 8