boom chicka boom: Rolling Beats, Rhythms, Drums n Handclaps Thread

while googling around after that discussion of 4x4 i found this, which is pretty interesting. i love the discussion of shuffle, it has this totally mechanistic view of how the beat works, which is not at all wrong -- and probably helpful in programming a beat -- but is not at all the way i would ever talk about shuffle. but it's interesting to read it from that perspective. (also interesting how the same guy seems flummoxed by dubstep further down the thread.)

i've posted this before but it should be here too -- steve gadd demonstrating the "50 ways beat.

speaking of steve gadd this is pretty 0_0.

http://wayneandwax.blogspot.com/2005/08/we-use-so-many-snares.html

Wayne Marshall on reggaeton beats and their place in the world. The article was written in 2005, so it's slightly out of date, although most of it holds true. This:

it would seem only a matter of time before unremarkable synth textures and one-finger melodies are replaced by the vibrant strains of salsa samples, indian flutes, and whatever else one wants to fit into its solid template (making it an omnigenre on par with hip-hop and dancehall, and one based, yet again, on the creative re-use of well-worn materials).

has largely come to pass. He had a good tutorial on the difference between different styles of beats (hiphop, reggaeton, dancehall, techno, etc) that I wanted to post here, but it seems to have disappeared.

Of interest (to me at least). Casa de Leones, "No Te Veo": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Bfy0NMPiQ

Allow me to nerd out here for a sec.

Starts with a 4x4, then launches into this crazy rhythm. Alright. First things first, typically reggaeton averages around 95 BPM, almost always sticking with ten beats above or below that number. "No Te Veo" is 120 BPM. This tempo, along with its rhythmic base, gives it a feel that approximates soca. This is explicit and intentional. "Bailar la soca", one of them says in the song. About that crazy rhythm...

The basic dembow beat that characterizes reggaeton uses this pattern.

(counting in sixteenth notes, lower case for kicks, upper for snares) three-ONE-two-TWO-three-ONE-two-TWO

Kicks on every beat, snares playing a 3-3-2 pattern along with the first kick. A lot of reggaeton switches it up slightly by modifying the back half of the bar and adding an extra snare:

three-ONE-two-TWO-two-ONE-ONE-two-TWO

"No Te Veo" takes that beat, and replaces the first kick of each bar with a snare:

THREE-ONE-two-TWO-two-ONE-ONE-two-TWO

A rather unique beat, with the snare pattern venturing rather close to the clave, and kicks only on the two, three, and four beats, hats doubling the kick pattern. I notice one thing it allows them to do is that since the strong one is established with the snare rather than the kick, they can include breakdowns with the kicks removed entirely without losing the beat.

The main counter-rhythm, beyond the vocals, is that afro-pop-ish guitar line that plays throughout:

three-three-one-one-two-two-two-two

Which is pretty simple, even with its own shades of clave, but its interaction with the drum line, reinforcing the rhythm of the first half of the bar, and playing straight to the more complex rhythm of the second half makes it more simple. Notably the guitar has its quick sixteenth notes in the front of the bar, whereas the snares have theirs in the back of the bar.

Great thread idea, btw.

Maybe this notation might work better.

K = kick
S = snare

basic dembow:

K--SK-S-K--SK-S-

dembow with switchup:

K--SK-S-K-SSK-S-

"No Te Veo" (w/ guitar part {which I actually messed up slightly before} below for comparison)

S--SK-S-K-SSK-S-
G--G-GG-G-G-G-G-

I hope that makes more sense.

That beat's better (and more dancehall-y) than the usual reggaeton beat, for sure.

The usual reggaeton beat is great as is.

eh

The usual reggaeton beat is just the usual dancehall beat with an extra kick added, so "more dancehall-y" is meaningless.

yeah, but that extra kick is a world of difference. dancehall feels like it has a lot more clave and emphasis on the upbeats to me, and reggaeton feels so thudding and four-on-the-floor.

"More clave" is as much a red herring as "more dancehall-y", but you may have a point about the upbeats. It should be noted that the reggaeton beat is specifically derived from the "Dem Bow" and "Bam Bam" dancehall riddims.

by "more clave" i meant that i hear the dancehall beat you're talking about as a straight-up one bar clave (dotted quarter, dotted quarter, quarter note depending how you're counting), whereas in the reggaeton beat the kick drum is so dominant that snares feel like accents to the 4-on-the-floor feel rather than the driving force. it just appeals to me more.

S--SK-S-K-SSK-S-
G--G-GG-G-G-G-G-

nice notation. (and that's a great song.) the complaint about the inflexibility of the dembow beat that you hear from people who don't like reggaeton has always seemed weird to me, because if you listen to how people actually use it there's a range of variations, which are obviously getting even more pronounced as it evolves.

in the reggaeton beat the kick drum is so dominant that snares feel like accents to the 4-on-the-floor feel rather than the driving force.

well definitely. it's a real bottom-heavy beat, but the backbeats are still key to it because it's the rolling space between the last snare hit and the next downbeat that gives it its locomotion. (that space is just a half-note, but because of the interval between the snare hits it feels longer. i've always thought of that beat as elliptical, it elongates the space before circling back to the start.)

sort of otm

and of course probably my favorite ilm rhythm thread.

I wish we could have an ilx-wide moratorium on people describing songs as having 'interesting tempo changes' or something like that when they're talking about rhythmic changes in songs, especially if they're talking about stuff that was produced electronically. Tempos almost NEVER vary within a song itself, and if they do it's only because the live drummer is slipping +/- 1 or 2 BPMS at most. Even on those stupid slow/fast/slow metal songs, they're not really changing the tempo any, they're just doubling up/not doubling up the beat.

yeah actual tempo changes are relatively rare. too rare -- i like when things actually speed up or slow down.

in re some discussion on the odd-metric thread, the whole question of notating swing comes up a lot. some people wanna notate swing as triplet 8ths, or as an 8th and dotted 16th, but really swing is a notation all its own. i like this tutorial:

Years ago an article described how someone in the quest for the Grail had used a computer to analyze the swing eighth notes of a Bill Evans piano solo. Would technology reveal the mystic equation calculating where—between even eighths and triplet-eighths—true swing eighths fall? Such a definable proportion could then be easily passed from one generation to another. But the study revealed a challenging truth: no two swing eighths in Evans’ solo fell the same distance apart. He followed no formula, and none could be passed on to the reader as the prize so long sought.

yeah, that article is pretty otm, actually.

We can turn these three negatives into three positive instructions for the developing jazz musician pursuing a mature swing feel in eighth-note lines:

*

Play all eighths long unless marked otherwise, even if followed by a rest (Ex. 4). “Long” means that no decay or decrescendo in the sound is present. (For wind-players, this means that the line should be performed via one unbroken air-stream rather than by a series of puffs of air, whereas for a pianist, this means each note must be held down by a finger until the next note is struck.)
*

Accent upbeats rather than downbeats (Ex. 5), unless otherwise prompted by leaps.
*

Place the degree of swing-eighth feel somewhere between 12/8 and an even 4/4 or 8/8 (Ex. 6).

Again, because I'm bored and find this stuff interesting. Another breakdown that can only hope makes sense, "Umbrella" this time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4X7eFbP3u4

Obviously, that big fucking open hat gives it a very strong 1. The 1 is made even stronger by the fact that other than the open hat and kick on the 1, there are no other drums until the 2, so the 1 stands all alone. The rest of the measure is filled out with 16th-note closed hats with an open hat leading into every other 4.

Hats:

1   2   3   4

O---cccccccccccc

O---cccccccOcccc

O---cccccccccccc

O---cccccccOcccc

Kick and snare:

1   2   3   4

K---S--K--K-S---

K---S--K--K-SS--

K---S--K--K-S---

K---S--K--K-SS--

1   2   3   4

K---S-kK-kK-S---

K---S-kK-kK-SS--

K---S-kK-kK-S---

K---S-kK-kK-SS--

1   2   3   4

K---S-kK-kK-SS--

O----------O----

1    2    3

Ella Ella Ella
4  1  2  

Eh Eh Eh
3        4

Under my umber-

(">" = the holding of a note)

1   2   3

XX>>XX>>XX>>

4   1   2

X>--X>--X>--

3   4

XXX>X>>X

3   4

X>--X-X-

1   2   3   4

XX>>XX>>XX>>X>--

X>--X>--XXX>X>>X

XX>>XX>>XX>>X>--

X>--X>--XXX>X>>X

XX>>XX>>XX>>X>--

X>--X>--XXX>X>>X

XX>>XX>>XX>>X>--

X>--X>--X>--X-X-

this rhythm section is doing some deep second line shit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHy__pYDO3o

The rest of the measure is filled out with 16th-note closed hats with an open hat leading into every other 4.

intentionally or not i hear this as an umbrella going up (the open hi-hat) and then rain pattering on it (the closed 16ths). a nice union of beat and lyric.

A big part of why "Umbrella" works as well as it does is that it takes two hooks, the first primarily melodic, the second primarily rhythmic, and fuses them together.

very much otm. the "ella eh eh" part is the one everyone was walking around singing, but i think that's because people mostly don't walk around singing beats. (although i do, sometimes.)

nice breakdown rev. one thing i've been meaning to do since getting my new mac is tracking this beat down in garageband, but haven't done it yet.

is it true that the beat is a garageband loop?Q

I think if the lyrics to the first part were easier to memorize, people would be walking around singing it, too. xp

intentionally or not i hear this as an umbrella going up (the open hi-hat) and then rain pattering on it (the closed 16ths). a nice union of beat and lyric

Well there you go. I like that image.

I hadn't heard that one. More power to them if that's true.

ok i installed my garageband loops, and the "umbrella" beat is vintage funk kit 03, slowed down a bit.

which leaves it oddly authorless. i wonder if the garageband programmer should get a credit, or whoever/wherever they took the loop from? anyway, it makes me wanna explore garageband some more.

isn't the point that they're open source or whatever?

i know the dudes in town here who did most of the loops, i should ask how they feel about it. :>

yeah i mean it's found art. and credit to the-dream or whoever for giving the beat a home.

(millions of people sitting there with that beat on their hard drives, only one "umbrella")

Perhaps one day they will emerge from obscurity in a documentary entitled Standing In The Shadows Of Garageland

Standing Under The Umbrella Of Garageland?

Hey Jordan, if you know them, ask them about it!

BUMP

This thread is awesome, why'd it die so early? Not that I have much to add, kind of a newb at this stuff. Where are new, interesting rhythms coming from? Just reggaeton? What the hell is 'gypsy brass'?

Jordan, did you ever ask the GarageBand loopists about "Umbrella"?

that mgmt song "electric feel" i don't like all that much, but it has an interesting 2/4 + 4/4 structure. good beat, middling song.

or you could count it in 6/4 too if you wanted. it's just that 6 notation to me usually implies a 1-2-3/1-2-3 count, where this is 1-2/1-2/1-2.

What the hell is 'gypsy brass'?

aka balkan brass. lots of debate where the rhythmic origins are. gypsy, turkish, greek, who knows. obviously a cultural hybrid at this point. they love the odd-number metrics. 7/8, 9/8, 11/8. like this. (the jazz boat at the istanbul festival looks like fun.)

(neglected to link the mgmt song. i like the intro section best, the kick-snare/kick-kick-snare-snare.)

Slightly off topic, but this seems like as good a place as any for me to marvel at the astonishingly non-duple metrical structure of this otherwise unremarkable country song. The verses are based on a seven-beat cycle, the chorus on a six-beat cycle, and only the turnaround linking them spans four beats. Maybe the oddest thing is how the near-absence of duple norms sounds perfectly natural (for the genre). Nice tune, I think.

(Duple bridge further into the song.)

(But who's counting?)

Can you re-link that? it's not working for me and you have me curious.

Okay, this should work. There was an extra http etc. in there.

(I like how there's about two and a half minutes of no image or sound at the end of that home-made video.)

Thanks for fixing my link; didn't think to check it.

tipsy, thanks for starting this thread and filling it with so much goodness.

it's just that 6 notation to me usually implies a 1-2-3/1-2-3 count, where this is 1-2/1-2/1-2.

i like the intro section best, the kick-snare/kick-kick-snare-snare

Heard as two bars of 3/4, the kick drum pattern is highly meter-reinforcing:

| Half Quarter | Dotted-half |

Not yet mentioned: Mark Butler's book Unlocking the Groove. Recommended reading.

so are we ever gonna outgrow rnb handclaps?

Nope.

that's what i thought.

when writing lyrics u gotta know when to step and how many steps to step

rhythm is what do you call it ubiquitious in music on every level-- there is nothing nonrhythmic from the 440 vibrations of an a to the 1-26 semitone alphabet and the duration of each letter

there's a difference between the existence of rhythm and a groove

so are we ever gonna outgrow rnb handclaps?

-- Surmounter, Friday, May 16, 2008 8:06 AM (Friday, May 16, 2008 8:06 AM) Bookmark Link

I would hope not.

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 1 1

Count 1 2 3 4
Implied *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***

Hi Hat x-- x-- x-- x-- x-- x-- x-- x--
Snare --- --- x-- --- --- --- x-- ---
Bass Drum x-- --x --- --x x-- x-- --- --x

a milli a milli a milli a milli a mil a a

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 1 1

-- The Reverend, Thursday, June 26, 2008 8:11 PM (Thursday, June 26, 2008 8:11 PM) Bookmark Link

Count 1 2 3 4
Implied *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***

Hi Hat:
--- x-- --- x-- --- x-- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- x-- --- ---
Snare:
--- --- --- --- --- --- x-- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- x-- ---
Bass Drum:
x-- --- x-- --- x-- --- --x x-- x-- x-- x-x x-x x-- --- --- ---

Hi Hat:

--- x-- --- x-- --- x-- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- x-- --- ---

Snare:

--- --- --- --- --- --- x-- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- x-- ---

Bass Drum:

x-- --- x-- --- x-- --- --x x-- x-- x-- x-x x-x x-- --- --- ---
Hi Hat:

--- x-- --- --- --- x-- --- x-- --- x-- --- --x --- x-- --- --x

Snare:

--- --- x-- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- x-- --- --- --- x-- ---

Bass Drum:

x-- --- --- x-- x-- --- x-- --x x-- --- --x --- x-- --- --x ---
Hi Hat:

--- x-- --- --- --- x-- --- --- --- x-- --- --- --- x-- --- ---

Snare:

--- --- x-- --- --- --- x-- --- --- --- x-- --- --- --- x-- ---

Bass Drum:

x-- --- --x --x x-- --- --- --- x-- --- --- x-- x-- --- --x --x

http://www.zshare.net/audio/143247510a70ae25/

what is that, rev? it sounds cool, but yr rolling beats file came up blank for me.

i gotta say i love 'no matter what,' just a big simple classic rock groove. i like how slow it is, but all the 16ths on the synth make it seem like it's moving faster than it is. the roll at the end of the measure is pretty key. (using x* to represent the two-stroke roll.)

count 1 2 3 4
implied **** **** **** ****
hi hat:
---- ---- ---- ----
snare:
---- x---- -x--- x--x*
kick:
x--- ---x --x- ----

gah, forgot to delete hyphens in the snare line. should look like this:

hi hat:
---- ---- ---- ----
snare:
---- x--- -x-- x--x*
kick:
x--- ---x --x- ----

what is that, rev? it sounds cool, but yr rolling beats file came up blank for me.

that's cause I accidentally posted silence

workinonit

alright, try this:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/14325580211d1985/

cool. is that anything in particular? sounds very new jacky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euXegeu2WHQ

excellent.

James Redd and the Blecchs just posted this to the rolling Afro-Latin thread. I haven't read it, and if I do read, I'm sure I won't understand most of it, but it looks important:

Rolling Afro-Latin Music All Stars - Tribute to Afro-Latin Music Thread 2014 (DVD incl.)

(I wonder if the Revered even remembers that this thread exists?)

Sloppy cutting and pasting obviously:

http://www-cgrl.cs.mcgill.ca/~godfried/publications/Percussive-Notes-Web.pdf

Here is an excerpt from that. A sloppy description of the Bo Diddley beat and then uh, not sure I get the rest. Will need to study it some more.

Perhaps the most
quintessential timeline is what most people familiar with rockabilly music dub the Bo Diddley Beat,
and salsa dancers call the clave son, which they attribute to much other Cuban and Latin American
music. This rhythm is illustrated in box notation in Figure 1. Each box represents a pulse, and the
duration between any two adjacent pulses is one unit of time. There are a total of sixteen pulses, the
first pulse occurs at time zero and the sixteenth at time 15. An empty box denotes a silent pulse or
rest, and a box filled with a mark indicates a sounded (or felt) pulse. Thus the sounded pulses, also
called onsets, for the clave son are those numbered 0, 3, 6, 10, and 12. This rhythm may also be
represented by its sequence of adjacent inter-onset intervals (IOI’s), that is [3-3-4-2-4].

(Oh wait, I was thinking the Rev started it.)

The article has neat rhythms diagrams.

That guy has lots of papers with those kinds of diagrams.
A Mathematical Analysis of African, Brazilian, and Cuban Clave Rhythms: http://cgm.cs.mcgill.ca/~godfried/publications/clave.pdf
El Compas Flamenco: A Phylogenetic Analysis http://cgm.cs.mcgill.ca/~godfried/publications/winfield.pdf
The Euclidean Algorithm Generates Traditional Musical Rhythms http://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-47.pdf

Wow

There is another guy who draws similar circular diagrams for harmony as opposed to rhythm named Dmitri Tymoczko. I think these two guys run math/music seminars together. I've glanced at his stuff too, but it doesn't seem as immediately useful. Seems like the math starts getting pretty complicated right away and there already existing ways of visualizing harmony- the piano keyboard comes to mind. But he has some smart people interested in his work so it's worth taking a look.

Did we link this paper yet? http://poisson.phc.unipi.it/~fidanza/matemusica/papers/Toussaint%20-%20The%20Geometry%20of%20Musical%20Rhythm.pdf

This review seems to get it just about right: http://mtosmt.org/issues/mto.13.19.2/mto.13.19.2.gotham.php

http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.00.6.1/mto.00.6.1.anku_frames.html

Whoa, thanks for that link. That will be useful this semester.

What's going on this semester? You teaching or taking a class?

I'm teaching a couple of courses, including a 'world music' course where West African drumming will come up.

Cool. Would you like to come comment on the other thread?

Meaning this one: Math & Music: The Severed Alliance. Some Recent Academic Approaches (Do Not Read If You Hate Drums)

I posted another link over there about the Mind of the Master Drummer, by the late Willie Anku. May start moving a few more links from here over to there.

Most of these have gone off the net. End of discussion.

awww man....

Could someone explain the rhythm in this song?

Joy Atlas – "Notice It All"

Or just the time signature :-) Without any technical knowledge, I guessed 6/8, but it may be something different, or change once or twice?

The drumbeat comes in during the verse, then it changes to a different beat in the bridges (at 0:29 and 1:16 mins), and I like it but it confuses the hell out of me. So, any help would be appreciated. Feel free to use technical terms, I'm just trying to avoid (mis)using them myself. Or a non-technical explanation such as "the drummer is drunk", that's fine too.

I would just say it's in 3 -- you could write it in 3/4 or 3/2 or even 3/1, but it's definitely not 6/8, which implies a "compound time" i.e. a combination of a 2 and a 3 feel. Here the pulse is very heavily 1 - 2 - 3, it's just that there's a lot of syncopation against it.

Just count to the repeating synth line under the verse and you feel the 1 - 2 - 3 -- then in the "chorus" the vocal more or less takes on the same pulse.

whereas 6/8 is like ONE two three FOUR five six, so that the "one" and "four" create a two feel against the three feel, if that makes sense.

Ah, yes it does! I was wondering why it didn't sound anything like the 6/8 examples I'd heard. I'll have to check out stuff in 3/2 and 3/1, having never knowingly heard any.

yeah to me it's straight-up 3/4, with the drums playing around.

went to see a friend's band play last night, they do some beautiful things with a slow 3/4 pulse (shifting to 6/8 feels and back, etc):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ettC1CIzw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3kAFF1brF4