Taking Sides: Pussy Galore vs. Sonic Youth

Pussy Galore were rich kids, the Vampire Weekend of their era, so there's really no comparison. Sonic Youth were much more soulfully authentic. They had this New York ghetto thing going and it was very real to the time and place, along with Public Enemy. Plus, did you know it was from James Bond?

Sonic Youth, not so obv. Dial M is a masterpiece with Right Now! not far behind. But Daydream still cuts both...just listened to it yet again last week and there's no contest (with much of anything ever recorded). And SY's oeuvre is more consistent, e.g. Historia and the Exile cassette suck.

There's no comparison just going by on those pix alone. For me it always has been and always will be Pussy Galore. Just look at those dark-ass shadows hovering over a bunch of smiling tricksters compared to gifted and talented kids bored on their summer vacation. That sums up the music for me. Pussy Galore is filled with so much more LIFE.

But the absence of a t-shirt advertising a gay-and-proud sub-indie band in the Pussy pic suggests less fun.

There are only two Sonic Youth records I have really strong, positive feelings about: Bad Moon Rising and Sister. Daydream only works for me for about four songs; then I get bored and turn it off. On the other hand, I like almost all of Pussy Galore's stuff up through Dial M, including at least half of the Exile cassette. And I saw PG live on their final U.S. tour, and have never seen SY. I'll grant that PG never recorded anything nearly as beautiful as "Shadow Of A Doubt," but SY never recorded anything that rocks like "Sweet Little Hi Fi."

Freek-a-Leek

Pussy Galore were rich kids

I don't think Kim and Thurston were actually poor either, but who cares?

it was very real to the time and place, along with Public Enemy

Pussy Galore shared the same time and place along with them. Not sure where you're going with the PE thing, though. Chuck only appeared on Goo fleetingly... and that was much later on.

. Plus, did you know it was from James Bond?

Sonic Youth have excelled at being one thing that Pussy Galore never were: BORING.
Of course it's from James Bond.

But the absence of a t-shirt advertising a gay-and-proud sub-indie band in the Pussy pic suggests less fun.

The Happy Flowers were gay?

I was kidding earlier, Alex. I really can't compare the two. Completely different bands. I like Pussy Galore 'cuz I like rock, and I like Sonic Youth 'cuz I like dreamy, floaty art noize. In the long run, I only listen to Dial M & Sugarshit Sharp by the one band, and the Bad Moon through Sister stuff by the other, so they've each enriched my life about equally. SY has a slight edge in this respect, due to more quality non-album stuff.

When I was younger, I'd have given SY the win, no second thoughts, based on "importance" and influence. But I'm less inclined to give a shit about that kinda stuff these days. If I'm drinking beer, PG. If I'm not, SY.

Too difficult to choose, and you can't make me.

Though I might lean towards Pussy Galore, because they had the good sense to quit at or near the top of their game.

Sonic Youth was my favorite band in the entire fucking world for three or four years there, probably the ones that ended with the Clinton inauguration, but they've spent a good portion of the time since 1) reading their own pub 2)"curating" and 3) being boring.

But fact is, these are two bands who worked at a very very high level. Ain't many bands that could make either a"Groovy Hate Fuck" or a "Confusion is Sex." Not many would have the guts.

The Happy Flowers were gay?

Mr. Horribly Charred Infant is.

Was that a big part of their official identity back then: "gay and proud"? Alls I ever heard anybody say was they were fucked-up, noisy and funny.

Yeah, I only ever heard them as being endearingly rude, loud and thoroughly juvenile (and hilarious).

They were still recording when Mr. HCI came out as gay and proud. I don't know when exactly that SY pic was taken. But does it really matter? We know NOW that he's gay which retrospectively casts an enormous gay-and-proud ray of sunshine on the glory that is I Crush Bozo.

At the very least, it gives you another way to read the album title.

Hahaha

Both these bands are fucking awesome and I don't care

Both these bands are fucking awesome and I DO care

gifted and talented kids bored on their summer vacation

This sounds better to me than

dark-ass shadows hovering over a bunch of smiling tricksters

but I've barely ever heard Pussy Galore.

for single bursts of catharsis and glorious burnout: PG
for beauty and album length glory and longevity: SY

but I would have to say that Bad Moon Rising is my favorite of all the albums Bob Bert has ever drummed on, so there you go. I like it just a tiny bit more than Groovy Hate Fuck.

i wish i still had a copy of sister. i'd listen to it. they rock on sister! i mean, they could certainly rock. especially live back then. um, cuz someone said that sy were about art gauze or something.

destroy everything after daydream nation though and pretend that they broke up and that lee and thursty started an art skronk big band instead and toured europe for years to critical acclaim but little sales and kim became, like, a painter or something and drummer dude joined the foo fighters instead of that fucking annoying bucked-tooth dude who used to play with alanis.

I think their last few are some of their best.

Lots of people think lots of things. That doesn't make them (and by "them" I mean you) right. Sonic Youth haven't been dependably good in over 20 years.

scott seward the most OTM he's ever been

I wish this was a poll. Pussy Galore is the best!

pussy galore played at my college in 87 or so. i didn't get it at the time, i guess i should give them a listen again.

Lots of people think lots of things. That doesn't make them (and by "them" I mean you) right. Sonic Youth haven't been dependably good in over 20 years.

If by "dependably good" you actually mean "consistently boring," then amen.

Yes, Sonic Youth have been consistently boring since Washing Machine. If not Goo, but that's a debate for braver men than I.

Anyway, re: Alex, wasn't saying SY don't rock (Stereo Sanctity, Pipeline, Silver Rocket), just that PG = ROCK, and very little else. Not a criticism, mind.

"the absence of a t-shirt advertising a gay-and-proud sub-indie band in the Pussy pic "

happy flowers were awesome.killdozer meets no wave sort of - can you ask for more?

You can always ask for more.

Can I have some more?

that PG = ROCK, and very little else. Not a criticism, mind.

OK, but I just don't think I agree. As has been noted upstream, Pussy Galore had the Ivy league thing going, and behind all the scuz rock, you definitely got the feeling that their music was being presented as a class Art project, and capital A, too.

It was the same thing with The Swans and R Kern, and a goodly portion of that New York no-wave stuff, too: this reverse aesthetic where they're presenting junk, trash, scuz, but because of the knowing wink with which it is presented, it acquires that frame, it somehow becomes art.

If being artsy wasn't at least part of Pussy Galore's modus, then why did Bob Bert go the trouble of playing garbage cans, then why was for years their most apt descriptor, "Einsturzende Neubauten meets the Cramps?" For that matter, why did they cover "Yu Gung?"

Pussy Galore rock, no questions asked, but their aesthetic--whether you bought ir or not--was a little more complicated.

http://www.astroland.net/Music/sugarshit.jpg

Harry Pussy v Pussy Galore

pretend that they broke up and that lee and thursty started an art skronk big band instead and toured europe for years to critical acclaim but little sales and kim became, like, a painter or something and drummer dude joined the foo fighters instead of that fucking annoying bucked-tooth dude who used to play with alanis.

^^ I like this!

a 'thought experiment' is soo sonic youth

if kim & thurston never met...

he would've had a fling with lydia lunch and then gone on to play ron asheton to mike gira's iggy. or maybe become the fourth beastie boy, preventing them from ever turning to rap

lee would've become a language poet and played bass in a proto-phish jam band

kim would be internationally known artist & later run for president w/ ralph nader

steve shelley would run a record store in east lansing and tell great stories about gigging w/teh Meatmen

and seriously, FWIW, Pussy Galore would never have existed if Sonic Youth didn't pave the way

personally I'm like a deadhead about sonic youth, I like everything they do (some better than others)

all the hype about pussy galore in the village voice back in the day soured me forever on them. never listened to them, never want to. when I worked w/jon spencer in the 90s he was a real nice guy though. I lent him some records by elvis p and country singer webb pierce.

personally I'm like a deadhead about sonic youth, I like everything they do (some better than others)

same here. i love PG, tho, esp. the Corpse Love comp, Year 1 Live tape, and Sugarshit Sharp.

FYI: Not all Deadheads like everything the Dead did. It's not a big deal, but I just wanted to say it. Many of the Deadheads I know are the band's most critical and discerning fans.

Pussy Galore rock, no questions asked, but their aesthetic--whether you bought ir or not--was a little more complicated.

Great point. In many ways Pussy Galore's fusion of garage/trash punk and industrial grew out of Confusion is Sex-era SY (which was stooges, no wave and industrial). That's was the platform from which Pussy Galore took off.

ts: (royal trux vs. jsbx) vs. (the backbeat band vs. to live and shave in l.a.)

I like both bands, but SY easily over PG. Sonic Youth were/are consistently more dynamic and interesting. PG is just too fucking one-dimensional, monochromatic, I don't think I've ever made it through an entire album. It's three songs then 'OK, what else do I want to listen to'. Plus the Art Project aspect mentioned above kinda keeps me from really loving them as well. It never felt genuine. Their whole aesthetic was pretty transparent. Total affectation. Granted SY has delved into these areas at times, but for whatever reason it's less irritating.

Doesn't mean Pussy Galore didn't rock though.

been entranced by that PG picture. hey, Richard Gere.

I don't remember Kim Gordon ever looking like that. Is that just some random hippie with a Timex?

Oh my god I KNOW I posted on this thread last night. I KNOW I DID.
Why wasn't it so?

Pussy Galore rock, no questions asked, but their aesthetic--whether you bought ir or not--was a little more complicated.

-- 2ndBass

Great point. In many ways Pussy Galore's fusion of garage/trash punk and industrial grew out of Confusion is Sex-era SY

-- c1916

That's just it: I don't buy it. As far as I'm concerned, PG were a rock band. Everything else is just surface-level obfuscation. On a strictly musical level, they have much more in common with early Mudhoney or Thee Mighty Caesars than with Sonic Youth, Bob Bert's kit notwithstanding. It's hard to hear that on, say, Right Now, cuz the art-noise costuming is so thick, but once you get the hang of the interference, it's just garage punk underneath. (John Spencer's subsequent argues this point, too.)

"subsequent career"

It's hard to hear that on, say, Right Now, cuz the art-noise costuming is so thick, but once you get the hang of the interference, it's just garage punk underneath.

But that's not costuming. The distortion and feedback were/are intrinsic to the band's aesthetic, to their jamming.

"subsequent career"

Spencer's subsequent career shouldn't be used to argue anything.

Yeah, but they were using the distortion and feedback to make rock music.

When I say "art-noise costuming", I'm talking about how they positioned themselves in an art context. The NYC art climate of the era was favorably inclined toward the scum/trash angle PG were working, but the music itself is no frills rock.

That last one, re: Quantum's xpost.

I'm not gonna defend Jon Spencer or the Blues Explosion, but from a songwriting standpoint, his work hasn't changed much over the years. The aesthetics and attack have certainly changed, but he's been working the same handful of riffs and breakdowns since day 1.

It's hard to hear that on, say, Right Now, cuz the art-noise costuming is so thick

-- me

But that's not costuming.

-- Quantum

When I say "art-noise costuming", I'm talking about how they positioned themselves in an art context.

-- me

I regret this bullshit evasion. Quantum OTM. Right Now's noisyness obscures the fact that the songs are straight-up rock, but calling it a "costume" trivializes it unfairly. The noise is integral to the music.

xpost. There are a few Kim Gordon photos where she doesn't look like I expect her to look. Not sure if that's actually her in the picture above, but the photo on the back of Evol also had me confused for a long timee (especially given that Kim is a unisex name). Ane then there's mega-nerd Kim on the cover of the first Album/EP...

http://sonicyouth.com/mustang/lp/lp04u.jpg

As for this thread, my answer is that Dial M and Live In The Red have held up much better than anything SY did, but you can't really compare the two bands. They just remind me that Bob Bert was kind of a genius drummer in that he did amazing work in two pretty different styles.

The NYC art climate of the era was favorably inclined toward the scum/trash angle PG were working, but the music itself is no frills rock.

Of course it's rock but there's no denying the influence of industrial, no wave, and early SY on the group's rhythmic engine. PG grooved with a grating mechanical pulse and klang -- and I not just talking about the drums. The guitars were also nasty rhythmic instruments (far diff from the much more organic sounding Mudhoney). Simply listen to early SPK or Neubauten or Mars then listen to PG. They were just as much industrial primitives as they were garage rockers. Now mind you, PG actually knew very little about roots music and old garage at this time, and a lot of the more atonal stuff reflects this. As somebody pointed out earlier, PG was more influenced by the Cramps, 45 Grave, etc.

I'm not gonna defend Jon Spencer or the Blues Explosion, but from a songwriting standpoint, his work hasn't changed much over the years.

I think it has. It's not simply a case of removing the fuzz and feedback to discover continuity. He totally reinvented his music and image after leaving PG. The big turning point in Spencer's life was the time he spent hanging with Don Howland and Jeff Evans, who schooled him on old blues and rock. In them he saw what he wanted to be (more blues, less noise), and outside of Boss Hog's refind, pop-oriented scum, he actually turned his back on PG. Of course, the early Blues Explosion has some PG-like klang to it, but since then Spencer has tried to become a real roots rocker/bluesman. I don't think the Spencer of now could write a PG song; I don't think he wants to. I mean, I see where you're coming from. But the differences between PG and, say, Heavy Trash are pretty fundamental, in my opinion.

Haven't heard Heavy Trash, so I can't say. Maybe you're right about the post-90s Jon Spencer stuff: I wouldn't know. I got some use out of the first few JSBXE albums, but lost my (already waning) interest soon after Orange. Still love the Reverse Willie Horton LP. Sounds more like early Pussy Galore than Dial M/Sugarshit Sharp.

I agree with you WRT the idea that Pussy Galore were operating in relation to the Cramps/45 grave much more so than roots music or old garage. But that's still garage punk. The "Yu Gung" cover seems like misdirection more than a meaningful reference point. "No Count" from a year or so earlier seems like a much more honest statement about where they were coming from and what they actually wanted to be. Sure, the Right Now-era stuff is so denatured/fragmented as to approach industrial noise, but underneath the deconstruction, they're still kicking out traditional garage punk jams. It's there in the riffs, the drumming and the lyrics.

Whatever teh intent, in going forward, JSBXE repurposed PG's devices without changing them much. Cleared off the grime, stuck the R&B swing back in, paid more attention to non-punk antecendents. But the songs themselves are structurally very similar. At least that's how I hear it.

The Back from the Grave thread reminds me of the Corpse Love liner notes: "Teen Pussy Power was recorded with a single microphone stuck in a funnel to try and get that Crypt Records 'Back From The Grave' sound..." Suggesting that PG were well aware of their non-art-music, garage punk predecessors.

Back from the Grave thread

the thread so nice I linked it twice

Sonic Youth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any band with Jon Spencer.

Suggesting that PG were well aware of their non-art-music, garage punk predecessors.

So true. At the same time most of the band had never heard Exile on Main St. when they covered it.

Indeed, there's not underestimating the impact of the Back From the Grave series.

not=no

Lots of people think lots of things. That doesn't make them (and by "them" I mean you) right. Sonic Youth haven't been dependably good in over 20 years.

-- unperson, Saturday, 23 February 2008 04:23 (3 days ago) Link

No, theyve been dependably awesome for the past 3

Sonic Youth is beautiful and Pussy Galore is ugly, but these things mean nothing to me, so I'll call it a tie.

I'm talking about the music, of course.