Is [male-sung and composed] folk music sexist swill?

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Quoth Dave Q in the 'fave folk album' thread, specifically talking about Richard Thompson, admittedly:

I find their singing and songs...CONDESCENDING, somehow. Every single song seems to be patronising some female who (according to the song) is just too boring and unworthy to find the attraction of drunken, brawling 'wanderers' like our lovable narrators. Hence songs' attraction as cover-version fodder for every unemployed lank-haired new-age sensitive ponce who ever disgraced an open-mic night.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

New 'I am a POET and you are a fragile flower' answers. Not being the world's greatest folk maven, I'm intrigued at the possible responses.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Anne Briggs influenced (among other things) Bert Jansch (among other people).

but then again i'm not quite sure what artist(s) dave q had in mind there.

― http://gygax.pitas.com, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

there's a very significant difference between male sung and composed folk music and songs by richard thompson...he's kind of a distinct enterprise if you want to talk about UK vs US folk/blues traditions

― Steve K, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Naw, I think this inability to deal constructively with females isn't a Male Folkie Thang, but it is definitely a Richard Thompson Thang. And I suspect that any misogynstic tendencies on his part were thrown into sharp relief either by his acrimonious divorce or his conversion to Sufi'ism (a form of Islam, and we all know how Muslims treat their women.) I find it hard to imagine John Prine or, heaven forbid, Donovan getting that "gonna beat my woman until I get satisfied" level of throbbing woman-hate.

― Lord Custos 2.0 beta, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Now I'm picturing Woody Guthrie as a violent pimp whinging "Yo! Where's mah money, Bitch?!" *SLAP* *SLAP* *SLAP*!

― Lord Custos 2.0 beta, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So, to answer your question: no, Male-sung Folk isn't sexist swill...but Richard Thompson does have some serious "issues" thet he'll eventually have to deal with.
Granted, if he does get some psychotherapy done, he'll probably lose that bitter edge that made him so damned interesting in the first place.
Think about Eric Clapton singing "Layla" back in the mid 70s. Now remember how he sang it in the 90s. Thats what I'm afraid of.
Or worse: Remember in Beavis and Butthead Do America where mr VanDreisen is singing a unbearably coy folk song called "Lesbian Seagull"? Brrrr.

― Lord Custos 2.0 beta, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

we all know how Muslims treat their women

yeah, we all know how all Muslims treat their women? could you generalize a little more?

― fritz, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

A particular 1960's brand of male chauvinism (specifically the cosy way it managed to co-exist with more "forward thinking" politics) seems to have been rampant during that initial folk resurgence, as I gather it was throughout the subsequent hippie explosion. I'd go out on a limb and say that very attitude drew a lot of players to the scene. In any case, it didn't start with Richard Thompson. But Don't Think Twice, you know... It's Alright.

― The Actual Mr. Jones, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

*blinks*
What Richard Thompson songs are we talking about?

― john-paul, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

lesbian seagull is bettah than all folk ever

― mark s, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

men have feelings too mark s

― geeta, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There's actually a 14th verse to "The Wreck of The Edmund Fitzgerald" in which the embattled crew congregates in the aft galley to pull a quick train on the poor ship wench before abandoning ship. It didn't survive the editor's razor, but bootlegs exist, I'm told.

― Andy, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

generalising a little more (for fritz): we all know everything

― mark s, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Best. Thread. Evah.

― M Matos, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I have to say that I'm pretty perplexed about all these comments about Richard Thompson, too...I've listened to a good chunk of his material post-breakup, and I can't say that I've noticed any particular amount of misogyny in the material. As I've mentioned before, I sometimes tend to gloss over the lyrics (© Ned Raggett) so maybe I haven't been listening hard enough. Maybe this R. Thompson is an evil man.

― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 8 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Fritz:could you generalize a little more?
Custos: Ummm. No. That statement was a vague and generalized as I could possibly make it.

― Lord Custos 2.0 beta, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I have to say that I'm pretty perplexed about all these comments about Richard Thompson, too...I've listened to a good chunk of his material post-breakup, and I can't say that I've noticed any particular amount of misogyny in the material.
Well, Dave Q must have more subtle senses that either of us. I don't think he's a stone-cold woman-hater, but he does have issues. I get a weird twinge of "yo, get over yerself" whenever I hear him sing "Why Must I Beg (For Whats Already Mine."
I dunno. Maybe we're all being a bunch of Politically Correct ninnies, but Dave Q might've stumbled across something legit...or maybe he's just oversensitive. Thats one of the things this thread is here to resolve or discuss: Are Male Folkies just the old fashioned version of Emo Date-rapists or not?

― Lord Custos 2.0 beta, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

dave q teaches a course in feminism at evergreen, yo

― mark s, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

― dave q, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(I'd rather hear punk bands bitching about their 'god damn jobs' than folkies rhapsodizing about jobs their daddies used to have that aren't there anymore. All that stuff that came out during the Miners' Strike, I felt like saying, "What, you WANT to work down the pit? For life? Gee, what imagination")

― dave q, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't know why I was picking on Thompson especially. Doesn't folk music seem even more cartoonishly masculine than Manowar tho? All those hard-drinking two-fisted manly men with their trousers tucked into their socks, waiting for dinner to be ready when they get home from the shipyards.
Um...no. You're thinking the Indigo Girls. Alot of MALE folk sounds to my ears like sad little guys with skinny arms trying to get in touch with their feminine side (Donovan, Nick Drake) or senile old men reminiscing about the great depression. But maybe I should listen to whatever Folk records yer listening to.

― Lord Custos 2.0 beta, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(I'd rather hear punk bands bitching about their 'god damn jobs' than folkies rhapsodizing about jobs their daddies used to have that aren't there anymore.
Thats Bruce Springsteens job now.
All that stuff that came out during the Miners' Strike, I felt like saying, "What, you WANT to work down the pit? For life? Gee, what imagination")
Naw. Now they sing scornfully about predatory suits with power ties.

― Lord Custos 2.0 beta, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Donovan and Nick Drake were probably the smarmiest pussy magnets of all time, but at least THEY were famous therefore deserving (of the kind of person that's attracted to fuckups, in the latter case)

― dave q, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

do ANY girls like nick drake? i find this extremely hard to believe...

― mark s, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I know tons of women who love Nick Drake. Girls, on the other hand...

― Sean Carruthers, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

oh women, yeah, but everyone knows about THEM!!

― (fritz are you focused?), Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I have met/known a fair few female (and male) ravers who liked to 'chill out' to a Nick Drake alb at the end of a heavy sesh. And besides Gabrielle = her bruv in a dress!

― Andrew L, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"the men don't know what the little girls understand" - feminist folksinger willie dixon

― fritz, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"her bruv in a dress" = k-rowr

"a heavy sesh with Andrew L" = [readers please complete my joke as you will]

― Please Note This Gag In No Way Argues That Gabrielle Drake Is Actually Sexy, Jus, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Never thought I'd live to learn to love the coal dust
Never thought I'd pray to hear the tipples roar
But now I wish that grass could turn to money
And greenbacks fill my pockets once more

("The L&smp;N Don't Stop Here No More" - Jean Ritchie) it's economic emo!! just replace "women" with "capitalism"

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

All that stuff that came out during the Miners' Strike, I felt like saying, "What, you WANT to work down the pit? For life? Gee, what imagination"

i lub dave q

― a-33, Thursday, 9 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Late to the thread, but anyway: I don't hear this in RT's songs. What I do hear is exploration of those points at which human interaction doesn't measure up to romantic ideal. Call it confessional, realistic, "dark" -- it's hardly unique to Thompson, Martyn, folk or the singer-songwriter ouevre. If pop's fantasy of relations between the sexes is what you seek, seek elsewhere.

Choosing Thompson and Martyn as exemplars of sexist ramblin' guy-ism is interesting, Dave. Both recorded and toured as husband-wife duos, so maybe the apparent failure of such (hippie? bourgeois?) idealism leaves them open to this type of criticism. I'm not sure this is what you had in mind, but a couple of songs spring to mind.

John Martyn's Going Home (recorded with Beverly): "Been worried about my babies, worried about my wife / Just one place for a man to be when he's worried about his wife / I'm going home..." This is certainly an example of male ramblin', but tough to criticize as inherently sexist.

Richard Thompson's Beeswing is a lovely and fairly representative ballad (he named his publishing company after it) that turns your paradigm on its head: the lost love-interest is a bohemian wanderer, driven away by the narrator's desire for domesticity: "...you foolish man, that surely sounds like hell / You might be lord of half the earth, you'll not own me as well." This was recorded well after the breakup with Linda.

Finally, Custos, is seems unfair to criticize an artist for sexism because he's been divorced or practices religion. Many of us have or do, and respond to art that recognizes these realities. Again, if escape from relational difficulties or existential uncertainty is what you seek, the jukebox offers plenty of alternatives.

Well, time for these bootheels to be wanderin', babe.

― briania, Tuesday, 14 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Botched that John Martyn lyric: it's "just one place for a man to be when he's worried about his LIFE..."

― briania, Tuesday, 14 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

five years pass...

worst thread evahhhhhhhhhhh

― gershy, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 06:05 (eighteen years ago)

"All that stuff that came out during the Miners' Strike, I felt like saying, "What, you WANT to work down the pit? For life? Gee, what imagination""

Yeah, never mind about the only job you've known or even contemplated throughout your adult life; your own and your family's security; the foundation of your entire local economy; your community and it's entire raison d'etre and way of life being flushed down the khazi purely on the whim of some megalomaniac psychotic dictatrix - use some imagination and just become a painter or a sculptor or a novelist or an interior designer or something instead and for pity's sake stop whining!

― Stewart Osborne, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 08:49 (eighteen years ago)

Thanks Stew!

Bloody 'ell! That took a damn long time for that sort of response!

― Mark G, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 08:53 (eighteen years ago)

Aaah, if only I'd been a bit quicker off the mark 23 years ago...

― Stewart Osborne, Tuesday, 5 June 2007 09:11 (eighteen years ago)

two years pass...

Now I'm picturing Woody Guthrie as a violent pimp whinging "Yo! Where's mah money, Bitch?!" *SLAP* *SLAP* *SLAP*!

― Lord Custos 2.0 beta

― velko, Wednesday, 8 July 2009 17:52 (sixteen years ago)

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1166/frontcovertr3.jpg

THE GREATEST ADVENTURE & the other Glenn Yarbrough songs here handily avoid any sexism.

― kind-hearted, sensitive keytar player (Abbott), Wednesday, 8 July 2009 18:52 (sixteen years ago)

man, that custos, what was his deal

― goole, Wednesday, 8 July 2009 18:54 (sixteen years ago)

*SLAP* *SLAP* *SLAP*!

― Matt P, Wednesday, 8 July 2009 18:57 (sixteen years ago)

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