T/S: Tradition vs. Innovation

when you actually make music do you care about shit like this

nah when I make music I just do whatever interests me at the time

but then when people talk about your music in these terms its hard to not think about it

people are too lazy tho

sometimes when people learn to do their own shit they find out a bunch of their opinions aren't really important, at least I hope they do, but then again if their shit sucks then they don't, so it depends

Please pardon the potential naivete of the question, but could you provide recent examples of innovation, something from the last 10 or so years? What is still being innovated?

Innovation is overrated. (I have quoted this before and will surely quote it again):

I can tell that I am growing old; one unequivocal sign is the fact that I find novelty neither interesting nor surprising, perhaps because I see nothing essentially new in it -- it's little more than timid variations on what's already been. When I was young, I was drawn to sunsets, slums, and misfortune; now it is to mornings in the heart of the city and tranquility.

-- Jorge Luis Borges, "The Congress"

uh

borges could be innovative I dunno

but could you provide recent examples of innovation, something from the last 10 or so years? What is still being innovated?

well what is "innovative" is also highly debatable - personally I think what is commonly taken to be innovative (like, say, Animal Collective - to take one critical darling of recent years) is usually just the result of familiar elements being presented in a new technological context. To give another example, for awhile there (post-60s psych and forward) being a po-mo magpie that integrated disparate traditions was often taken to be the height of innovation (that idea seems to have largely burned itself out in the post-digital age when anybody can marry a million different genres together, with maybe I dunno, Beck, being the last big signifier for that approach).

x-posts

and the idea of "innovation" in dance music seems like a whole other can of worms

have you read genesis of a music

My schtick, which yr probably familiar with, is that music is comprised of sounds, waveforms, which can be combined in an infinite number of different ways, and although obviously form or available instrumentation may realistically limit the compositional reach, I think we're nowhere near exploring the immense possibilities of music. Tradition's great, and should be treasured, but there's nothing I dislike more than seeing old ground re-covered.

when you actually make music do you care about shit like this

kind of. i think learning to play in a style of music that has some boundaries (whether it's bebop, salsa, samba, whatever) is a great experience. something where dudes are gonna know if you haven't studied up and will kick your ass accordingly.

sometimes i think that musicians who only play rock or dance music or whatever miss out on this.

have you read genesis of a music

no...? enlighten me

(my schtick does not apply to live performance, or musicians who earn the majority of their corn through live performance, because some stories are worth telling over and over again)

I think we're nowhere near exploring the immense possibilities of music.

really? there's a greater, wider variety of sounds being produced than ever before - over the last decade, for the first time in human history it is fair to say that humans can now create every and any sound the human ear can process. and it seems like there's bazillions more little subgenres and bands and musicians and producers every day...

http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Music-Creative-Fulfillments-Paperback/dp/030680106X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217526793&sr=8-1

the kind of innovation that i usually like comes from musicians schooled in tradition but also just being themselves, which is usually enough to avoid slavishness. sometimes i feel like shit is less likely to be great if it's on a real intentional (jagger-esque?) "what can we do that is NEW and CRAZY" tip.

Ah yeah I've pissed you off on this tip before Jordan but I'm coming from a different place this time. Obviously, songwriting remains extremely important, and although it is true to say that my own songwriting ideal would probably be some unpredictable progressive sonic mayhem, I personally enjoy any songwriting (however formalist) that successfully attempts to do something new, dramatic and (at least partially) coherent.

but what is "new" to you could very well be quite old to another listener

like whoah what if you've never heard any narcocorridos

New to me. We're in the business of subjectivity here.

gosh this is hard to articulate. i don't really care about innovation as long as the songwriting is up to snuff. but having a unique and original sound is important for me to respect bands that can't hack it totally in the songwriting department.

but what is "new" to you could very well be quite old to another listener

^^^

I think mining a musical tradition has changed since the 50s and 60s, in that nowadays mining a tradition can tap you into a ready-made market that you can poise to take advantage of (e.g. like when I hear a new band that sounds like Staind or George Strait). Whereas I don't think Elvis or the Stones were thinking "wow we'll make it big in Macon with all the fans of this music"; I think they were thinking they'd make it big with a new group of people.

not exactly a more noble attitude

I agree

It's all about innovation! Then I guess there's the post-modern style, putting old stuff together in a new way, but I also like to believe there is still real new music to make.

so working within an established tradition is less challenging now because the listening audience isn't as ignorant as it used to be...? I'm not sure what your point is.

x-post

all new stuff is putting old stuff together in a new way

^^^the realness

sometimes I think musicians are aware of this to a much greater degree than the average listener

Shakey if your xpost is to me, I was just saying that people's motivations for mining a tradition have changed. Like for the Stones to rip off Chess and Stax, it wasn't like they were trying to make it big in Chicago and Memphis. They were trying to make it big in London. And in that way their seeking tradition was at the same time an innovation. I don't think that's generally true now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_Nothing_New_Under_the_Sun

TS TS Progress vs Novelty vs T/S: Tradition vs. Innovation

on ILM there is also nothing new under the sun

but Euler strictly speaking thats more of a marketing innovation than a musical one, right...?

yes definitely, but I think marketing and music-making go together, at least in pop music

haha well yeah no argument there