think vs apache

U BETTA

"think", way more versatile.

think might be the best break ever

LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING

THE BRONX NATIONAL ANTHEM (aka "apache")

I think I like "Apache" more as a break, "Think" more as a song

^^xactly

Apache, because The Shadows > 99.999% of bands ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY-rPDwzM9M

it seems like these days apache is only used for "okay here is the OLD SCHOOL track" while think is alive & well

very true.

Think wins vs 99.99999999999999999% of all songs

2 Live Crew - "Megamixx"
Apache - "The Beginning"
Breeze - "Watch the Hook"
Busta Rhymes - "What the Fuck You Want!!"
Busy Bee - "Old School"
Chubb Rock - "3 Men at Chung King"
Coldcut - "Say Kids, What Time is It?"
Dee Patten - "Who's the Bad Man"
Digital - "Metro"
DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince - "Live at Union Square"
Double D & Steinski - "Lesson 1"
Double D & Steinski - "Lesson 2"
Double D & Steinski - "Lesson 3"
Everlast - "Syndicate"
Faith Evans ft Black Rob - "Love Like This"
Freddie Foxx - "Stop Look & Listen"
Freestylers - "Breaker Beats Pt 2"
Future Sound of London - "We Have Explosive"
Geto Boys - "Do it Like a G.O."
Goldie - "Inner City Life"
Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five - "Freelance"
Hammer - "Turn this Mutha Out"
Insane Poetry - "The House That Dripped Blood"
J. Majik - "Your Sound"
Jive All Stars - "No Stoppin'"
Jurassic 5 - "Jurass Finish First"
Kool G Rap - "Men at Work"
Kool Moe Dee - "Way Way Back"
KRS-One - "Who are the Pimps?"
Leaders of the New School - "My Ding a Ling"
LL Cool J - "You Can't Dance"
MC Paul Barman - "Burping and Farting"
Ministere Amer - "Le Droit Chemin"
Missy Elliot - "We Run This"
Moby - "Machete"
Nas - "Made You Look"
Roxy Breaks - "Apache Rock"
Run-DMC - "What's it All About?"
Schoolly D - "Housing the Joint"
Sugarhill Gang - "Apache Rap"
Tone Loc - "Ace is in the House"
Ultramagnetic MCs - "MC's Ultra"
Ultramagnetic MCs - "We're Ultra III"
West Street Mob - "Break Dance Electric Boogie"
Young MC - "Know How"
Young MC - "Watch the Hook"

2 Hyped Brothers and a Dog - "Doo Doo Brown"
2 Live Crew - "Get Loose Now"
3XDope - "From Da Giddy Up"
7A3 - "Goes Like Dis"
Afrika Bambaataa - "Planet Rock"
Biz Markie - "Road Block"
Black Rock & Ron - "I'm Tired"
Boyz II Men - "Motownphilly"
Breeze - "Pull a Fast One"
Caveman - "Fry You Like Fish"
CEO - "Hit Me with the Beat"
Choice MC - "HIV Positive"
Chubb Rock - "Bump the Floor"
Chubb Rock - "Ya Bad Chubbs"
Cocoa Brovaz ft Smif-n-Wessun - "Dry Snitch"
Cookie Crew - "Bad Girls (Rock the Spot)"
Cool C - "The Glamorous Life"
Daddy Freddy - "The Crown"
Das EFX - "Mic Checka"
De la Soul - "Jenifa (Taught Me) (Derwin's Revenge)"
Derek B - "We've Got the Juice"
DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince - "I Wanna Rock"
DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince - "The Girlie Had a Mustache"
DJ Magic Mike - "M&M Getting Off"
DOC - "Lend Me an Ear"
Doc Scott - "Far Away"
Doctor Ice - "Everybody Get Funky"
Don Pablo's Animals - "Venus"
Dream Warriors - "Face in the Basin"
EPMD - "Da Joint"
EPMD - "Gold Digger"
Eric B and Rakim - "No Omega"
Eric B and Rakim - "Rest Assured"
Eric B and Rakim - "What's on Your Mind?"
Finesse & Synquis - "Soul Sisters"
Freshco & Miz - "We Don't Play"
Geto Boys - "Seek and Destroy"
Heavy D - "Flexin'"
Heavy D - "Somebody for Me"
Heavy D - "You Ain't Heard Nuttin' Yet"
Insane Clown Posse ft Twiztid - "85 Bucks an Hour"
Intelligent Hoodlum - "Party Pack"
Janet Jackson - "Alright"
Janet Jackson - "FreeXone"
K-9 Posse - "Ain't Nothin' to It"
Kid 'N Play - "Do it My Way"
Kid 'N Play - "Gittin' Funky"
King T - "Diss You"
Kool G Rap ft DJ Polo - "Trilogy of Terror"
Kool Moe Dee - "I Go to Work"
Kool Moe Dee - "Let's Get Serious"
Kool Moe Dee - "Let's Go"
Kool Moe Dee - "Time's Up"
Kurtis Blow - "I'm True to This"
Lil' Kim - "Dreams"
Luther Vandross & Janet Jackson - "The Best Things in life are Free"
Marky Mark - "On the House Tip"
Masta Ace - "Letter to the Better"
MC Brains - "Everybody's Talkin' about MC Brains"
MC Smooth - "Smooth and Legit"
Michel'le - "Keep Watchin'"
Michie Mee - "On this Mic"
Mistress & DJ Madame E - "Let it Go"
Mr. Lee - "Break Out"
New Edition - "Hit Me Off"
Nice & Smooth - "Gold"
NWA - "Appetite for Destruction"
Organized Konfusion - "Organized Konfusion"
Paris - "Break the Grip of Shame"
Paris - "Wretched"
Patra ft Lyn Collins - "Think"
PM Dawn - "Norwegian Wood"
PM Dawn - "The Beautiful"
Poison Clan - "Fakin' Like Gangsters"
Poison Clan - "Rough Nigga Gets Busy"
Prince Johnny C - "Sunshine"
Public Enemy - "911 is a Joke"
Public Enemy - "Anti-Nigger Machine"
Public Enemy - "Pollywanacraka"
Public Enemy - "Who Stole the Soul?"
Real Roxanne - "Roxanne's on a Roll"
Red Hot Lover Tone - "Gigolow's Got it Goin' On"
Redhead Kingpen - "Superbad, Superslick"
Rob Base & DJ EZ Rock - "Don't Sleep on It"
Rob Base & DJ EZ Rock - "It Takes Two"
Roxanne Shante - "Bad Sista"
Roxanne Shante - "Go on Girl"
Roxanne Shante - "My Groove Gets Better"
Salt-N-Pepa - "Negro Wit an Ego"
Schoolly D - "Mama Feel Good"
Shango - "You're the One"
Shante - "Shante Gets Wicked"
Silk X Leather - "The Woman in Me"
Sister Souljah - "State of Accomodation"
Skinny Boys - "Get Pepped"
Slick Rick - "Children's Story"
Slick Rick - "I Shouldn't Have Done It"
Slick Rick - "Mistakes of a Woman in Love with Other Men"
Slick Rick - "Slick Rick - The Ruler"
Snoop Dogg - "Ain't No Fun"
South Central Cartel - "Ya Getz Clowned"
Special Ed - "I'm the Magnificent"
Steady B - "Nasty Girls"
Stezo - "Talking Sense"
Tairrie B - "Anything You Want"
TLC - "Das Da Way We Like 'Em"
Tuff Crew - "My Part of Town"
UMC - "Never Never Land"
YBT - "Nobody Knows Kelli"
Yo-Yo - "The Bonnie & Clyde Theme"
YZ - "The Ghetto's Been Good to Me"
Z-Trip - "Rockstar 2"

i forgot about "made you look"

it seems like these days apache is only used for "okay here is the OLD SCHOOL track" while think is alive & well

-- Jordan, Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:45 AM (Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:45 AM) Bookmark Link

I think both qualify as only being used for "okay here is the OLD SCHOOL track"-dom at this point.

what about baltimore?

No song on the "Apache" list can touch "It Takes Two"

Few songs on earth can, actually

"Think" breaks are kind of an old school signifier in Baltimore club now too, 80% of old tracks use it and 80% of new tracks don't, but it's still pretty ubiquitous.

but that's symptomatic of the general move away from breaks and more toward 808s, etc.

save your opinions on the sample lists for my follow-up poll Moby - "Machete" vs Insane Clown Posse ft Twiztid - "85 Bucks an Hour"

what about baltimore?

-- Jordan, Thursday, August 14, 2008 10:53 AM (Thursday, August 14, 2008 10:53 AM) Bookmark Link

I know all of nothing about that stuff.

i don't recall spank rock ever using the think break so it's probably some kinda fake-baltimore hipster thing

Shouldn't "Amen" be in this poll too?

I know all of nothing about that stuff.

neither does ethan but he learns just enough to try and lob some corny hipster jokes on the topic.

then it wouldn't be think vs. apache

xp

Also, no way does "Planet Rock" have the Think break!

al, can you link to some new baltimore tracks that aren't using the think break?

I guess the way the drum machine is programmed in it is kinda like Think though, but it's way too generic a break to be called the same.

(x-post)

al, can you link to some new baltimore tracks that aren't using the think break?

hmm, i guess. there's tons, though! revive this thread in a few hours when i'm home and maybe i'll throw up some myspace links or something: Baltimore Breakbeat

not that i know about this stuff but the blaqstarr stuff i've heard doesn't use it

John Waters' "Think" break

lol

How come the break in the original version of Think About It sounds a bit different from the one we all know and love? In the original version, Lyn's voice stresses just the word "It" in the line "It takes two to make it outta sight." (see right here at 1:33) but in every sample I've heard (especially on "It Takes Two") the line sounds more like "IT TAKES TWO to make it outta sight." with a lot more stress on "takes two." (see right here at 0:40). Is the sample an alternate take?

http://www.incorrectmusic.com/gallery/covers/think_understand.jpg

i think it's re-sung on the rob base track

"Hey dad! Did you see my new guitar? I joined a group!"

"Son, there's a little bit more to life than joining a group and playing a guitar."

There're so many different veins of breaks. These really are incomparable.

It's Just Begun predates Herc. It got tons of play at the Tunnel and The Puzzle, clubs Herc snuck into as a pre-teen. Yet, it's seen as a break. Other songs that aren't in the breaks vein should be.

The DJs there would cut the song off before the bridge and that was during the day of when Brooklyn Rocking infiltrated Bronx clubs (1970-1972), and Rockers would relish "Jerking" in the bridge. That inspired Herc's idea to play the bridge, always.

James Brown's Funk era (i.e., Cold Sweat, et al) also pre-dates Herc, of course. The fad dance known as the James Brown was the biggest inspiration (oputside of Apache Line gang initiations) on Brooklyn Rockers (Devil's Rebels outta Bushwick, etc).

By the time Herc got truly in the mix (1974-ish), most James records were the norm for Rocking. Grandmaster Flowers opened for James at Yankee Stadium in 1969, playing to Brooklyn Rockers...

Apache was Herc's find (I think, specifically, Coke la Rock brought Bongo Band to Herc's attention from Downstairs records). Brooklyn Rockers and early Bronx DJs didn't play it.

Flash expanded the vocabulary further, using plenty of "new" songs (i.e. Daisy Lady, Rocket in the Pocket, Sing Sing, Trans Europe Express, Super Sperm, etc)

Bambattaa brought the Rock element more than most, specifically Mary Mary and Honkey Tonk Woman.

By this time, Elroy, Lenny Roberts, etc had established a "breaks room" at Downstairs records, which really propelled it all...and they very much based it on what Herc played, and Flash, Bam, Charlie Chase, etc were playing at the time. Tom Silverman saw the breaks room, asked, and discovered Bam as a result.

1978-1981 DJs overused what were seen as gimmicks breaks (We Will Rock You being the best example), as much as overused HUGE breaks such as Good Times, Music is the Message, or Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now. I have a few 1978/1979 MC tapes where the only songs in the mix are those, and maybe Jackie Robinson's Pussyfooter.

Before Herc, Flowers (in his EARLY, late 60s, pre-disco days that b-boys forget about or frankly were too young to know about) found Rockers' anthems in Aretha Franklin's Rock Steady and Temptations Cloud Nine, which neither today are thought of as "breaks", despite Rockers jerking (competitive uprocking) to before Herc's crowd (Nigga Twins, et al) began dancing to breaks.

Also notable is speaking with Brooklyn/Queens/Jersey DJs of the 70s, who did play P-Funk, Philly Soul, or whatever. They didn't specifically seek out isolated drums to keep in the mix, yet, they did play with soundsystems in parks with MCs. Just not in the Bronx/Harlem way, and they've been largely left out of the history. Ironically, Sugar Hill grew out of Sound-on-Sound sound system, but are seen as a pre-fab rap group. Shows the selective history...

I feel like comparing breaks based on 80s/90s samples isn't really thinking of them as "breaks".

Despite Pussyfooter being used in only a few songs during the sample era (LL's Break of Dawn comes to mind), it's more relevant as a "break" than Think (or Amen, for that matter).

And Liquid Liquid's Cavern was the final nail...

I love how Pappa Wheelie always brings the details

quality post

apache apache apache

voting for think cause its 'more versatile' is like... have you ever heard apache??

not that apache is versatile its just motherfuckin undeniable

the chord stab in apache hits so damn hard. that's my choice.

eh, apache's never been my favorite break

i'd take funky drummer over it for sure

i actually like bongo rock more than apache by an inch

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

It's Just Begun predates Herc. It got tons of play at the Tunnel and The Puzzle, clubs Herc snuck into as a pre-teen.

Herc's a little older than this, no? It's Just Begun came out in 1972 and he started DJing in 1973-74.

I was quoting his interview about those clubs and that track being the breaking point in his decision to play breaks:

http://www.djhistory.com/interviews/kool-herc

Herc was 17 when Just Begun came out.

Despite his words in that last interview, his first party as a DJ according to most other interviews was August 1973 in the 1520 Sedgewick rec room.

http://www.cantstopwontstop.com/excerpt.cfm

He didn't move the party outside to the open until 1974 when he was 19.

The difference in my life between 17 and 19 is HUGE.

His reputation at large came about only after he bought the soundsystem from the resident DJ of the Executive Playhouse afterwards. That resident quit so he just moved in and made it his stomping ground until he got stabbed there in 1977 (and beaten in a hometurf battle by Pete DJ Jones, with his protege named Grandmaster Flash as a secret weapon). I think he was 22 then.

This Mark Skillz piece is the definitive on that story so far:

http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/05/one-night-at-executive-playhouse.html

Needless to say, all the articles written based on individual interviews has created a plethora of contradictions, but it's possible to get a decent timeline when gathering them all. Why writers don't is a mystery.

"pre-teen" was a stretch regarding that song. I was combining his early days at those clubs with hearing that song in those clubs.

(lesson learned -- posting drunk is fine. citing facts in a serious post drunkenly not so fine.)

(posting hungover is another story)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

vindication

PappaWheelie be droppin' some serious knowledge.

that's what he do