Marvin Gaye's What's Going On — Classic or Overrated?

does dreck in english actually mean the same as in german, i.e. dirt? anyways i think christgau is right. this album always stroke me as patchy.

My vote w/ with Xgau, too, FWIW.

actually dreck in german is a synonym of schmutz. that one is also used in yiddish, isn't it?

i thought it was more kind of schlock, like, inferior product.

it's obviously a really lovely sounding shimmery shuffly record, but i just go in for the three you mentioned.

I'd add Right On in there, because it's a fucking fabulous, beautiful, amazing groove, but other than that I think Xgau is about right, actually. I still think, in terms of context and achievement, that it's a fantastic(ally important) album, but it's never convinced me that it's 100% great. But even so, when it's good IT'S REALLY, REALLY, REALLY FUCKING GOOD.

It's funny, tho, how rarely defenders of this record even acknowledge that, you know, some of the material on this may be of a little higher quality than others. It just seems silly: people fall all over themselves to praise this record -- and you could make an argument (that I wouldn't agree with) that it's 100% great even though it's basically a frame for those three towering achievements, yet no one ever does. They just say that it's Motown's first social record...blah blah...Marvin's brother in Vietnam...blah blah...one of the greatest records ever.

I would also argue that "Save the Children" or whatever it is can be a little hard to stomach.

I do skip around, but this does not make me hate life: http://www.discogs.com/release/354757

The live disc and the detroit mixes are ace.

Inner City Blues live is a mind blower, especially the encore.

I just got it a few weeks ago, and apart from the singles and "Right On," I'm pretty ambivalent about the record. I don't love it, but I don't hate it. Maybe I need more time with it.

I like "What's Going On", but I prefer "I Want You" and "Here My Dear".

The other problem with this album is that it was meant to be heard on vinyl with discreet endings on each side. The thing that screws it up on CD is that the duff tracks are right in the middle of each side and the end of side one and two are not huge tracks. Everything is sandwished between two of the greatest recordings of the 20th century and it jams up the flow. It loses momentum through the middle of the record and it makes good tracks seem less interesting.

It is sequenced completely differently from something like Odyssey and Oracle which starts strong, has a strong middle and only peters out for a couple tracks on the end of side be and then goes out with the big hit.

What's Going On is paced like a W rather than a upward or downward slope.

save the babies

flipping the record breaks up the monotony and give closure to the sides, you don't have that break with a digital version that plays straight through.

Don't talk about my father

I always assumed it was the canon's somewhat tokenistic way of acknowledging Motown and soul in general - it's a self-consciously grand artistic statement with an interesting political and personal back story and genuine cultural significance - and as a result it's become too enshrined near the top of those classic album lists at the expense of better records like Curtis and Innervisions. It's had more rote praise than it can comfortably support.

I never listen to this album. I figure part of it's acclaim is that pre-"What's Going On" there really aren't a whole lot of Motown ALBUMS that are great and work as albums. Motown was a singles factory. (exception to this would be the Temps' late 60s stuff but they seem less well known, even if "Psychedelic Shack" is totally better than this one - which it is). But this was like the first time Motown really had a high profile "concept" album, so in classic rockist discourse this *must* be acknowledged as significant, even though a bunch of the material on it beyond the big three is, as noted, fairly meh. I remember listening to this album as a teenager with my mom in the car and even SHE couldn't stomach "Save the Children".

Ironically, it was Stevie's Where I'm Coming From that ushered in the "new" motown.

"Simply because our hair is long..."

Is this thread a joke? This is one of my favorite records of all time.

You must like dreck, then.

saaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVE the BAAAAAAAABiiiieeeees

I think "Save the Children" might actually be my favorite thing on the album, unless its "Flyin' High" or "Inner City Blues"

It's a gorgeous "mood music"/"easy listening" suite, dude. It only needs three distinct "songs". In fact three songs is fucking pushing it. IS IT NICE TO LISTEN TO? YES IT IS. MISSION FUCKING ACCOMPLISHED

Shakey it's annoying you say "the Temps" (are they like yr buddies?) but yeah all those late 60s/early 70s I think maybe I dunno Lps're GOLD baby

"Masterpiece" is, like, y'know, a masterpiece

"Temps" is a common nickname for the Temptations.

Anyway...Shakey's right. They were doing socially conscious stuff well before '71 -- as if to prove the point I give you this piece I wrote on the era.

love this comp:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415X513EVYL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

DUDE I KNOW

I never listen to this album. I figure part of it's acclaim is that pre-"What's Going On" "Pet Sounds" there really aren't a whole lot of Motown Beach Boys ALBUMS that are great and work as albums. Motown The Beach Boys were a singles factory. (exception to this would be the late 60s stuff but it seems less well known, even if "Psychedelic Shack" "Good Vibrations" is totally better than this one - which it is). But this was like the first time Motown The Beach Boys really had a high profile "concept" album, so in classic rockist discourse this *must* be acknowledged as significant, even though a bunch of the material on it beyond the big three is, as noted, fairly meh. I remember listening to this album as a teenager with my mom in the car and even SHE couldn't stomach "Save the Children" "I Know There's An Answer".

Heh.

oh ilxopaws

I've always understood it as 3 suites. Psychedelic Shack is better. I started a thread on it!

The Temptations "Psychedelic Shack" C or D?

hoostoric thread

for real i think it was my first thread not to get ned's "use the search function" smackdown

worst contrarian for the sake of it thread in entire ilm history

Dude's been "naive teen idol" for like 6 years, what do you expect

well exactly but since xgau is routinely wrongheaded about everything it doesn't do to go by his anti-gospel either

He's a lovely writer as rockcrits go but one never gets the impression he exactly "GETS" music

YOUR VOICE IS NOT YOUR OWN, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT OF A DISCOURSE

You're shouting a lot today, Nick. Is something up?

TV's Stuart Maconie offers his views: "What's Going On? What was all that about? Did British record shoppers who perchance stumbled across a copy in Bury Rumbelows in 1971 expect the record to be a tribute to staunch, resuscitated pillar of the community Dixon Of Dock Green? And if so, why did Marvin miss out the essential bookends of "Ello Ello Ello" and "Ere Then?" Why foist naive political viewpoints on innocent holidaymakers who perchance would have preferred a brisk singalong medley of music hall classics while promenading with their latent cappuccinos in Lytham St Annes? Did you know that Stevie Wonder loses interest halfway through Hotter Than July and that the Last Shadow Puppets are strongly influenced by Ennio Barry and John Morricone? Eh? Eh?"

It's my hernia.

Is this thread a joke? This is one of my favorite records of all time.

-- smash your phonograph in half, Thursday, August 14, 2008 6:27 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

another case of people who write about music reading about music at some point and then writing about music some more, thank god and thank us all.

Actually, this isn't "contrarian for the sake of being contrarian" at all. I've always been underwhelmed by the record as a whole. Lyrically, I buy into What's Going On?'s conceptual integrity completely — I think there's no question Marvin's concerns are thoughtful, insightful and sung with not only a real passion but also a delicateness (which he would draw upon for much of the decade).

I just think musically, beyond the three main songs, it's thin. And not just a little thin — REALLY thin. And I'd even argue that there may be some tertiary reasons that the critics overlook that fact when they so quickly usher it into the upper echelons of the pop music Hall of Fame — something the much-maligned Dean may well be hinting at in his review.

I'd be surprised if that silly old bampot Xgau listened to it more than once - more interested in the hot new Bobby Sherman platter at the time no doubt.

Anyway you're all making a fundamental mistake here; step back, consider WGO and think. You're missing something very obvious.

was real into this album in h.s. when i was discovering the canon. haven't listened to it much since. yes, it's classic. yes, it's overrated. yes, it's benefitted from being a token motown lp that makes classic rock-oriented playlists/best-of lists. yes, i want you and hear my dear are better. wow, i agree with geir for once.

what are we missing? that it's a mood album?

you know what fucking sucks though? his last lp.

Not to jump topic, but what's the name of the moody Smokey record from this era? The one that's suppose to be a lush song cycle about soft, groovy love?

you know what fucking sucks though? his last lp.

It has its charms, but—gasp!—I'm with Geir as well on this one.

I never listen to this album. I figure part of it's acclaim is that pre-"Pet Sounds" there really aren't a whole lot of Beach Boys ALBUMS that are great and work as albums. The Beach Boys were a singles factory. (exception to this would be the late 60s stuff but it seems less well known, even if "Good Vibrations" is totally better than this one - which it is). But this was like the first time The Beach Boys really had a high profile "concept" album, so in classic rockist discourse this *must* be acknowledged as significant, even though a bunch of the material on it beyond the big three is, as noted, fairly meh. I remember listening to this album as a teenager with my mom in the car and even SHE couldn't stomach "I Know There's An Answer".

haha Good Vibrations is not an album but otherwise this re-write isn't entirely off the mark (I never really listen to Pet Sounds anymore either! Although I Know There's an Answer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Save the Children)

Plantation owner Robert Catgut tells black people what they can and can't spit out.

Yeah, okay

a gifted pop demagogue--black capitalist masquerading as liberator

this is exactly what I was referring to. condescending liberal bullshit

leftist bullshit, whatever

James Jamerson's playing is what makes the album.

If I remember correctly, he once put down a Donny Hathaway album, too.

(Another soul singer who created expansive concept albums with lush strings and "deep" urban poetry.)

I think he said it sounded more like muzak.

"like he's clucking his tongue at G&H's brotherhood bromides cause they aren't herbert marcuse."

Exactly. He's far too sniffy about political soul of whatever stripe. "Benign market manipulation" ignores Berry Gordy's reticence about allowing any Motown artist to get political. And what does that phrase even mean anyway? There were a lot of pissed-off black Americans at the time so any music that spoke to those concerns was automatically tame and cynical? All political songwriting is naive/hypocritical/limited (delete where applicable) in one way or another, by its very nature, but you don't get any points for noting that fact at every bloody opportunity. Racist? No. Condescending? Oh yes.

Except, is he really wrong about G&H? I don't think thinking highly of them and also acknowledging that there was a bit of crass calculation there are mutually exclusive.

James Jamerson's playing is what makes the album.

OTM, except Bob Babbitt plays on "Inner City Blues" and at least one or two other songs.

Crass calculation = oh look at those n****rs, they can add up and want to wear suits and get degrees...

Give them 40 acres and the next thing you know they want to learn to read and write and shit...

way to put a phrase you yourself won't type out in someone else's mouth

you guys are being WAY unfair to xgau. it's true that some G&H stuff had a lot of revolution/liberation rhetoric and i guess xgau felt that it was just a pose. but i think he's forgetting that words like that have currency in a christian context and don't have to imply rosa luxembourg or whatever. but this doesn't make him a racist.

yeah, i mean it's great jamerson finally started getting credit in the 90s, but a lot of motown stuff had other bassists, and the large amount of stuff recorded in L.A. had carol whatshername and other studio folks on bass.

did we already establish whether or not this thread was spurred by obama's list of favorite songs?

classic of course

carol kaye yo

maybe three years ago somebody here lined an article in a philadelphia weekly about kenny gamble and what he's been doing in recent years. apparently he's become a neighborhood activist and has plugged some of his money and a lot of time and energy back into the black community. you could look it up, i forget the thread.

pop music is crass & calculated by definition, give me a break.

carol kaye claims to have played on a lot of tracks attributed to jamerson, who knows the truth?

Gamble (I think, as opposed to Huff) is still a pretty prominent member of the Philly activist community. It's a pretty natural extension of everything they did.

That he's made a lot of money at doing all this, again, does not make him a bad person or a phony artist -- a lot of people make money off of doing good deeds. I think Xgau just thought they could slip into simplifying things a bit from time to time for the sake of making a point and getting attention (News Alert: Jesse Jackson has made his entire career doing exactly this).

Regardless, I don't think this has anything to do with Xgau giving WGO a B+ instead of the "A++++-gold star-check-plus" it rightfully deserved.

At any rate, no -- this thread had nothing to do w/ Obama citing this record. Has he?

carol kaye claims to have played on a lot of tracks attributed to jamerson, who knows the truth?

Allan (Dr. Licks) Slutsky does:

http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks

if xgau really said that about gamble and huff thats the dumbest fucking thing ive read in awhile

what's missing to my mind from every estimation here is where MG was at as a singer at the time - everbody knows he had a beautiful voice, that's never been in question, but his earlier stuff, even at its sweetest, is more or less in the Motown tradition - some gospel chops, some rock/soul riffing, a pretty clear working knowledge of the general pop tradition. Get to What's Going On though and it sounds to me like Gaye has been listening to maybe the Impressions and has something to add in that vein - if you're cynical, you can say he's spotting a trend and hopping on, if you're not you can say he's moved or inspired by the tenor of the times. my guess, a little of both, musicians aren't exactly allergic/immune to zeitgeist, not good ones anyway.

In any case, as a singer, the growth spurt he hit when he was singing with Tami Terrell was pretty goddamn incredible. "Pride and Joy," "Ain't That Peculiar," "I'll Be Doggone," even "Grapevine," all great singing no doubt. But the MG/TT singles to my ear are just unbelievable, and I think when he comes out the other side of those, he's become a better singer, and knows it. What's Going On is developed & road-seasoned technique hitting more complex moods (whatever you wanna say about the political sophistication/lack thereof of its sentiments - I think ppl are too hard on Xgau about this, but I also think asking singers for much in the way of political complexities is a losing game) (LOL) and to my ears the singing on it is to be brief about it quite fucking rad and worth mentioning.

tl;dr what a fucking awesome singer he was by this point.

Agreed, what a singer! So wait though, are you saying he was drawing off the Impressions' social consciousness songs or their vocal/musical style?

little of both

I'd agree.

I'd agree on the politics but seems to me by What's Going On, Gaye had incorporated and gone beyond the doowop/church vocal roots of the late 60s Impressions work.

that's kind of what I said - not that he's just "doing the Impressions," but maybe drew some inspiration from them

OK cool, I'd agree.

TS: Curtis v. What's Going On?

http://hiphopdom.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/50-cent-curtis-cover.jpg

carol kaye claims to have played on a lot of tracks attributed to jamerson, who knows the truth?

Allan (Dr. Licks) Slutsky does:

thanks for this link! I read her claims in a book about record production a few years back and thought they sounded dubious, but this is about as thorough a refutation as one could ask for. she's a bitter old hack.

this is the single greatest album to have ever passed these ears

so, not overrated

that stuff about carol kaye and jamerson is pretty amazing. i had no idea her claims were unfounded.

TS: Curtis v. What's Going On?

-- Naive Teen Idol, Friday, August 15, 2008 9:56 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

Curtis would win this hands down, I think.

i didn't think the bassline credit was as simple as being just jamerson anyway - half of it was that big white guy, bob ... babbitt?, or something? i know he takes credit for inner city blues.

the books you can read about this lp are full of really enlightening anecdotes. things about how inner city blues started off 'damn near an hour long' and stuff.

The fact that he's so well served by Spotify (all deluxe editions and whatnot of Whats Going On.../ Here My Dear/ Let's get It On etc) has led to a long listening session, and ultimately made me go looking for the Marvin Gaye poll... only to find there *isn't* one. That can't be right can it?

TS: Curtis v. What's Going On?

-- Naive Teen Idol, Friday, August 15, 2008 9:56 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

Curtis would win this hands down, I think.

Indeed it did:

"Curtis" vs. "What's Going On" vs. "Everything Is Everything" vs. "First Take"

I pretty much agree with people who say that this album has a few awesome tunes, but also some formless filler. Why it's considered the best soul album of all time, I've never understood... I started the above poll because I thought "Curtis", "Everything Is Everything", and "First Take" certainly rate above it. Is it only because "What's Going On" sold more than any other soul album ever?

mouthwatering 40th anniversary gubbins :

KEY FEATURES:

•2 CD/12” LP vinyl High End Deluxe Box Set
•E-Album equivalent
•Original Printed Lyrics
•Detailed story behind the album What’s Going On.
•Exclusive images of Marvin Gaye throughout the recording
process.
•Much of the material has never been released and are
remixed, reworked alternate versions of Marvin Gaye’s
classics.
•Focus is on Marvin’s LP and post-LP Detroit recordings.
•Double gatefold 12” jacket (last panel has cut outs to hold the
2CD)

Disc 1 - Side 1

1. Marvin Gaye What's Going On Album Version
2. Marvin Gaye What's Happening Brother Album Version
3. Marvin Gaye Flyin' High (In The Friendly Sky) Album Version
4. Marvin Gaye Save The Children Album Version
5. Marvin Gaye God Is Love Album Version
6. Marvin Gaye Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology) Album Version
7. Marvin Gaye Right On Album Version
8. Marvin Gaye Wholy Holy Album Version
9. Marvin Gaye Inner City Blues (Make Me Wanna Holler) Album Version
10. Marvin Gaye What's Going On Original Single Mix
11. Marvin Gaye Head Title aka Distant Lover Demo Version
12. Marvin Gaye Symphony Demo
13. Marvin Gaye I Love The Ground You Walk On Instrumental
14. Marvin Gaye What's Going On Single/Mono Mix
15. Marvin Gaye God Is Love Single/Mono Mix
16. Marvin Gaye Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology) Mono Single Version
17. Marvin Gaye Sad Tomorrows Single Version
18. Marvin Gaye Inner City Blues (Make Me Wanna Holler) Mono Single Version
19. Marvin Gaye Wholy Holy Mono Single Version

Disc 2 - Side 1

1. Marvin Gaye Checking Out (Double Clutch) 1995 The Master Version
2. Marvin Gaye Chained
3. Marvin Gaye Country Stud
4. Marvin Gaye Help The People
5. Marvin Gaye Running From Love Version 1 (edit)
6. Marvin Gaye Daybreak
7. Marvin Gaye Doing My Thing
8. Marvin Gaye "T" Stands For Time
9. Marvin Gaye Jesus Is Our Love Song
10. Marvin Gaye Funky Nation
11. Marvin Gaye Infinity
12. Marvin Gaye Mandota Instrumental
13. Marvin Gaye Struttin' The Blues
14. Marvin Gaye Running From Love Version 2 (with strings)
15. Marvin Gaye I'm Going Home 1995 The Master Version
16. Marvin Gaye You're The Man - Pts. I & II Single Version
17. Marvin Gaye You're The Man Alternate Version 1
18. Marvin Gaye You're The Man Alternate Version 2

Disc 3 - Side 1

1. David Joseph Van De Pitte, David Van dePitte, Marvin Gaye, Orchestra What's Going On Detroit Mix (What's Going On/Deluxe Edt. 2001)
2. David Joseph Van De Pitte, David Van dePitte, Marvin Gaye, Orchestra What's Happening Brother Detroit Mix (What's Going On/Deluxe Edt. 2001)
3. Marvin Gaye, David Van dePitte, David Joseph Van De Pitte, Orchestra Flyin' High (In The Friendly Sky) Detroit Mix (What's Going On/Deluxe Edt. 2001)
4. David Joseph Van De Pitte, David Van dePitte, Marvin Gaye, Orchestra Save The Children Detroit Mix (What's Going On/Deluxe Edt. 2001)
5. David Joseph Van De Pitte, David Van dePitte, Marvin Gaye, Orchestra God Is Love Detroit MIx
(What's Going On/Deluxe Edt. 2001)
6. David Joseph Van De Pitte, David Van dePitte, Marvin Gaye, Orchestra Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology) Detroit Mix (What's Going On/Deluxe Edt. 2001)

Disc 3 - Side 2

1. David Joseph Van De Pitte, David Van dePitte, Marvin Gaye, Orchestra Right On Detroit Mix (What's Going On/Deluxe Edt. 2001)
2. David Joseph Van De Pitte, David Van dePitte, Marvin Gaye, Orchestra Wholy Holy Detroit Mix (What's Going On/Deluxe Edt. 2001)
3. David Joseph Van De Pitte, Marvin Gaye, Orchestra Inner City Blues (Make Me Wanna Holler) Detroit Mix (What's Going On/Deluxe Edt. 2001)

http://devonrecordclub.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/marvin-gaye-whats-going-on-round-48-nicks-choice/

It is patchy, but it's still incredible.

I've finally, finally been getting into this album in the last year or so, and especially since I gave the LP a good cleaning and really let the lushness out of the speakers. Xgau is right but also totally wrong - yeah it's built around three incredible songs and the rest is kind of "in between" stuff but when you have that band playing with this much feeling, it's okay if it's not all "A" material. Besides, there's something to be said for the groove for its own sake, space to be alone with your thoughts, process what you've heard - think about what's going on maybe.

Would it be better if it were ten more complete, hook-filled "songs"? I mean, if they were all the caliber of "Inner City Blues," sure, maybe... but for the kind of listening experience it's trying to cultivate I think this is pretty incredible. The sound is SO warm and intimate which fits the approach of discussing "outward" concerns in a kind of close-up introspective way: mourning things to oneself, or in a one-and-one conversation where both parties are shaking their heads wondering what the fuck is going on.

The other thing of course is that two of the three linchpins have been very heavily-played over the years, which probably does add to any sense of "thin-ness" - it's just hard for them to have the same impact they would otherwise. But they really are unbelievable songs/recordings.

The original question in this post is lol

I love how this got weaved in and out of Da 5 Bloods. (True, the chronology of that film is inaccurately all over the place, but the use of this music fits beautifully.) Went back and listened to the album a few times, and it still feels extraordinary to me.

I've finally, finally been getting into this album in the last year or so, and especially since I gave the LP a good cleaning and really let the lushness out of the speakers. Xgau is right but also totally wrong - yeah it's built around three incredible songs and the rest is kind of "in between" stuff but when you have that band playing with this much feeling, it's okay if it's not all "A" material. Besides, there's something to be said for the groove for its own sake, space to be alone with your thoughts, process what you've heard - think about what's going on maybe.

Would it be better if it were ten more complete, hook-filled "songs"? I mean, if they were all the caliber of "Inner City Blues," sure, maybe... but for the kind of listening experience it's trying to cultivate I think this is pretty incredible. The sound is SO warm and intimate which fits the approach of discussing "outward" concerns in a kind of close-up introspective way: mourning things to oneself, or in a one-and-one conversation where both parties are shaking their heads wondering what the fuck is going on.

OTM. Truly an album rather than a collection of songs, most of it really can't be plucked out of context save for the three singles. After that spectacular opening and mission statement, I always felt it became more of an immersive experience where you're dropped into the mind of a returning veteran who's sinking into depression and getting high to deal with the pain as he grapples with the world around him.

it’s not an altogether pleasant listen, and I don’t mean that pejoratively

https://www.discogs.com/master/1621702-Marvin-Gaye-Whats-Going-On-Live

i first became aware of this live performance from the original what's going on 2cd deluxe edition from 1971. i was looking for it on streaming platforms to no avail. relieved to see it's there, just as a standalone release these days. most likely an rsd release in that in iteration; it's a great way to revisit that material if you've burned out on the studio recordings.

"original what's going on 2cd deluxe edition from 1971."

2001. the original album was released in 1971. the original 2cd deluxe edition came out in 2001. even though those recordings existed in 1971, they were not made available to consumers until 2001.

time isn't real, btw.

I remember that performance is kind of a nervous mess, though - he starts the show with side 2 of the album!

It was Marvin’s first live performance and sounded like it.

First live performance *** in four years***