BLACK SABBATH VS. ALICE COOPER POLL

this is way closer than i expect ppl on ILM will give it credit for being.

man, honestly i can't even call it. a couple of years ago i woulda said sabbath in a walk, but i hadn't heard love it to death or killers then. i was a child.

Even allowing for the early Alice stuff, it's sabbath in a walk.

Coop wins this thing on power balladry alone...("Only Women Bleed, "You And Me", "I Never Cry" > "Changes", "Fluff", "Laguna Sunrise")...

Also I happen to think that goth started with the song called "Black Sabbath", thanks.

I've only just discovered Alice Cooper's early stuff, and while there's a few individual tracks that I like as much as my favourite Sabbath songs, I'm not sure the albums are as solid. But it is early Alice days for me...

honestly Dio era shit is probably the tiebreaker for me.

Black Sabbath are more tolerable than most of the acts they influenced. But Alice Cooper is still on a league of his own here. There is a double edge to his prime 70s work that you don't find with any other hard rocker.

Alice is great but COME ON. Sabbath are monolithic, AC isn't even in the same league.

"double edge" = showtunes

Sabbath are totally monolthic. True. But I don't listen to them the way I do AC's golden age: Easy Action, Love it to Death, Killers, School's Out, Billion Dollar Babies. That stuff I return to over and over. So yeah, I guess I gotta go with the Coop.

you know sooner or later if we do enough of these polls round-robin stylee we will eventually hit upon who is actually the greatest band ever

In that case we should have some kind of NCAA tourney kind of thing. That would actually be kind of fun, I think.

(How many times can I use the word "kind"?)

the Zep vs Sabbath polls made me think of it. it'd be hard to determine who would go into it cuz typical-ILM-contrarianism would result in numerous knee-jerk "but you left out _________!"

I'd say at a bare minimum ILM "canon" favorites Prince, Sabbath, Zep, James Brown, Kraftwerk, Beach Boys, Beatles, Rolling Stones, Steview Wonder etc. would have to be included. we could divide it into genres for the various groups....

eh maybe this is a stupid idea

early prediction: bowie, prince or dan.

the Sabs were monolithic to be sure, but they were also monochromatic...at least compared to the Coop, who combined metal, spy themes, freakout, and, yes, show tunes...really can't go wrong either way though...

eh maybe this is a stupid idea

some guy wrote some book a couple years back, theorizing that any multi-headed dispute can be settled March Madness style...(the only problem is that even setting the "brackets" would be so contentious and argumentative as to render the whole exercise pointless)...

you realize you're essentially advocating the actual polling to death of ilm

early prediction: bowie, prince or dan.

I'm tempted to say Hall & Oates, the way things have been going...

^^ i've no prob with any of these

miles davis would be a strong contender, you'd think.

"the Sabs were monolithic to be sure, but they were also monochromatic"

Total bullshit, one of the wrongest things to ever appear on this board.

Sabbath sends Cooper packing in a fucking whitewash. Not even close.

they were monochromatic in comparison to early alice cooper, but almost everything is.

but yeah they are more diverse than ppl give them credit for.

Even Alice Cooper wouldn't vote for Alice Cooper on this poll.

anyone with enough stones to own his own baseball themed restaurant could probably muster up the courage to vote for himself in some gay ILM poll

I don't think Alice's mother would vote for Alice in this poll.

He apparently owns that sports bar with Randy Johnson. I saw Anthony Bourdain's show where he stops there and shares a "Big Unit" hot dog with Alice himself.

you realize you're essentially advocating the actual polling to death of ilm

you always hurt the ones you love

And come on, there IS something monochromatic about Black Sabbath, especially circa Master of Reality -- that's part of the charm.

this poll can only be settled the old fashioned way, on the golf course...drivers at dawn!

xpost

dude don't argue with bill w.this. according to him sabbath were funkier than james brown, better composers than bach, heavier than 1 billion planets, better songwriters than randy newman and bob dylan put together, and had nicer boobs than scarlett johanson.

Yeah, that one sounds totally the same throughout, "Orchid" "Embryo" "Solitude" -those are gut-busting metal anthems man

xxpost

Hegelson's right, except the boobs part.

3/5 of the original Cooper group were cross-country runners in high school...folks, it don't get more metal than that...

There's a reason they didn't call themselves All the Colors of the Rainbow Sabbath.

yes, there is: because that would be a shit name for a band.

i ran cross country in jr high and the team had an unusually high percentage of Rush fans.

makes sense

Which is interesting because you wouldn't think that people who have to keep their lungs nice and clear would be able to indulge in a typical Rush fan's favorite herbal refreshment.

xpost

cooper is great but a little too proto-po-mo for my liking. i prefer the earnest heavy plodding of sabbath.

sorry alice, you're a fine fella, but totally outclassed here.

Alice Cooper and Black Sabbath are the two bands who I instantly think of when I think of those ugly puke-green Warner Brothers labels of the early '70s, and I loved 'em both and hate to compare their music. So I'll compare the singers instead.

Alice: Son of a minister
Ozzy: Played a minister in "Trick or Treat"
Alice: Album title: "...Goes To Hell"
Ozzy: Album title: "Speak of the Devil"
Alice: Appeared in "The Decline of Western Civilization, Part II"
Ozzy: Ditto
Alice: "No More Mr. Nice Guy" covered by Pat Boone
Ozzy: "Crazy Train" covered by Pat Boone
Alice: Doesn't remember recording "Special Forces", "Zipper Catches Skin" or "DaDa" due to alcohol abuse.
Ozzy: Doesn't remember the 1980s due to alcohol abuse.
Alice: Indirectly responsible for killing a chicken during a concert
Ozzy: Directly responsible for killing a bat during a concert, as well as a dove at some record-label function

Black Sabbath wins it!

^^Bookmark

C'mon, it's Sabbath by a quite a ways.

Alice: Indirectly responsible for killing a chicken during a concert

Actually, this is quite impressive, as it proves that Alice's truly was evil!

... that Alice's music truly was evil!

If that doesn't, maybe this does.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2097/2391045898_986571bab5.jpg?v=0
No amount of sludge can stop me!

wow he DOES look totally evil

honestly i find golfing, bar owning, republican alice cooper a lot better than poor sad addled ozzy.

Sabbath, not even close. The idea that they're monochromatic is just some wtf-have-you-even-heard-them stuff:

debut: proto-doom, unlike the rest of the catalog
MoR & Paranoid: hooky pop-doom
Vol. IV & Sabbath Bloody Sabbath: prog-pop
Never Say Die: new wave

there's plenty more. they have lots of different looks. So did Alice, but his songs were never as good.

you left out Marilyn Manson

So true...and Rob Zombie and all those other shock rockers. I also left out heavy metal!

yeah when I said "monolithic" I didn't mean monotonous or monochromatic, I meant HUGE and UNFUCKWITHABLE. They had a mountainous sound built upon an idea so powerful and perfectly formulated AC was just puttering about in the lowlands by comparison.

I think somebody else used the word "monochromatic," Shakey.

Still gonna defend monochromatic, esp on the 1st LP and Master (also most of IV, but then again Changes). They branch out after that. And I'm only calling 'em monochromatic relative to the shiny-happy rainbow of FM pop norms. It shouldn't be hard to admit that, a lot of the time, Sabbath = thick, dark and sludgy. Though there's variation within the sludge, it's still a tarpit, and until you've spent a little time wallowing around and getting acclimated, the variations aren't as visible as the goo itself. Besides, I see the somewhat limited palette as a good thing: they knew what they wanted to do and didn't fuck around with inessential details. Funhouse is monochromatic, too.

I'm intentionally leaving Paranoid off the list of semi/slightly monochrome Sabbath albums, 'cuz there the pop hooks are consistently big enough to brighten the room. No coincidence that War Pigs, Iron Man and Paranoid are the standout, played to death, freedom rock classiks of the Sabbath catalog.

It shouldn't be hard to admit that, a lot of the time, Sabbath = thick, dark and sludgy. Though there's variation within the sludge, it's still a tarpit, and until you've spent a little time wallowing around and getting acclimated, the variations aren't as visible as the goo itself.

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is barely sludgy at all. Rick Wakeman plays keyboards on it. Vol. IV has a good deal more weirdness than "Changes." Neither really has any tarpit feel to it. To my ears the 1st LP is completely apart from those 2nd two, which are in fact quite similar to one another and seem to be the bedrock on which you're building your specious monochromae case.

the only good thread i ever posted on ILM might be applicable to this discussion:

I made "We Sail Through Endless Skies: The Quiet Black Sabbath Album", check it.

Neither really has any tarpit feel to it.

dood Supernaut is pretty sludgy

And it's not alone. I think you guys are either seeing "monochromatic" as a criticm, or you're so intimately involved with these records that you can't recall how they sound to the uninitiated, relative to 70s radio pop as a whole.

Though there's variation within the sludge, it's still a tarpit, and until you've spent a little time wallowing around and getting acclimated, the variations aren't as visible as the goo itself.

This makes sense to me. A.C. flaunts his variety, but with Sabbath I think it's something you have to work at to really hear. But hey, there's nothing wrong with that.

the only good thread i ever posted on ILM

Yeah, everybody really hated that little past-vs.-future poll-thing of a coupla weeks ago...

i should say the only thing i'm PROUD of!

"So did Alice, but his songs were never as good."

no way, he had great songs! as good as anyone else's good songs. he didn't have, like, a million of them, but he has plenty to be proud of. which is kinda why the only perfect alice cooper album (for me) is greatest hits. and it is perfect. and one of the best albums of the 70's by far.

also, i should mention that glen buxton, dick wagner, and steve hunter are just as god-like to me as iommi on guitar. i might not worship them with an actual altar in my basement like i do iommi, but they are up there for sure. (glen's stuff on love it to death and killer is fucking genius. and dick and steve are just all-purpose genius. whether on their own or whoever they play for.)

great, GREAT tunes.

Easy Action's "Return of the Spiders" is so badass.

it's funny that my first true awareness of alice cooper - other than seeing album covers - was probably hearing "you and me" on the radio every five minutes in the 70's. i only really paid attention to kiss when "beth" became huge. (kiss were my brother's favorite band, but i was a slave to the radio.)

too bad this isn't kiss -vs- alice cuz then i would vote for alice.

i would vote for alice over most people, probably.

it's a cliche to mention, but, hey, sinatra thought alice was a great songwriter and so did bob dylan.

I believe it was pointed out that the Sabs were monochromatic relative to AC...

Sabbath by several hundred light years. Just think what they would have sounded like if they had Bob Ezrin producing them.

i think this discussion reflects the fact that our country and the UK does a very poor job of educating our children about early alice cooper.

"Still gonna defend monochromatic, esp on the 1st LP and Master (also most of IV, but then again Changes)."

Please go back and listen again.

the first sabbath has a hambone harmonica solo.

but still peeps be actin' like they on some ween or zappa type shit. i mean, they did have a style and stuck with it for the most part.

JohnD did a pretty good job of pointing out how their sound changed with every album.

haha bill i love sabbath and you always make me feel like i'm acting like i HATE them. i'm just sayin', coop is waaaaaaay more diverse (but obv that's just a fact not necessarily an advantage or disadvantage).

anyway reaaaaaally wanna vote for coop esp. after how dismissive peeps are being but i gotta go sabbath.

it did come down to dio for me. he rules.

Sorry Matt.

I honestly think the Tony Martin years suck really hard, in case anybody thinks I totally drink the Kool Aid. I understand that I'm not going out on a limb here.

i had a VHS tape of the headless cross tour. it was bad. was that tony martin?

Merzbow's sound changes from record to record, too (at least somewhat, sometimes), and I'm sure certain hardcore Masami Akita fans would object to the idea that he's making entirely monochromatic music. Not saying that Black Sabbath = Merzbow, just pointing out that pretty much all music involves some degree of variation over time, and that true believers will always perceive riches unglimpsed by the hoi pollioi. So when I call Sabbath "semi/slightly monochrome", I'm not suggesting that they're a featureless, unyeilding mass. Just that they're not quite as kookily colorful as, say, mid 70s Alice.

i love alice cooper. or at least the 70's stuff anyway. i like flush the fashion a bunch, but that's as far as i go. never heard any albums after that one.

but black sabbath have been my fave rock band since i was a kid. so they will always come first for me.

I can't believe that I'm actually interested in seeing the outcome of this poll! (It's usually the remarks that accompany the votes that matter.) Just hope my cop-out nonvote doesn't wind up turning the tide one way or t'other.

I love them both but have been obsessed with Killer for several months, so today I have to go with the Coop.

The two bands scratch very different itches which makes it hard for me to compare.

i can't vote against black sabbath, but i would vote for alice cooper over:

bruce springsteen

rick james

the new christy minstrels

vic damone

nina simone

andre cymone

john barry

pia zadora

the pixies

kiss

diamond rexx

diamond reo

bio ritmo

television

mission of burma

japan

david sylvian

rain tree crow

nine horses

porcupine tree

dali's car

ryuichi sakamoto

kitaro

fennesz

xiu xiu

the mormon tabernacle choir

and basically anyone who put out a record in the united states between 2000 and 2008. except for Juvenile.

For those who haven't voted yet, please listen to "Generation Landslide" and vote accordingly. Remember: you can make a difference!

They should probably listen to the entire Billion Dollar Babies album. I don't how some one could say AC didn't write good tunes. That record is perfect pop from beginning to end. "Raped and Freezin'" totally drive me nuts in such a good way.

The production is a tutorial in reverb, echo and layering.

I love the part on the title track where the psycho voice and the Vincent Price-like voice echo these lines:

We go dancing nightly in the attic
While the moon is rising in the sky
If I'm too rough, tell me
I'm so scared your little head will come off in my hands

and even though he didn't write the lyrics, "Hello! Hooray!" is one of the great show-starters, with it's "God I feel so strong!" refrain...

and how prescient was the campaign mockery of "Elected"?...(candidates have won public office with lesser platforms than You And Me Together: Young And Strong)...

That has to be one of the great album intros. I've been listening to BDB for years now, and it seems as if it reveals some cool little twist every time I spin it. I mean, those dudes must've combed over the entire record to make sure every sound was just perfect, that there was never a second of music that wasn't totally cool.

funny how nobody ever mentions the touching and uncanny piano ballad "Mary Ann", which foreshadowed Welcome To My Nightmare...(and though the Coop didn't score the theme song for The Man With The Golden Gun, the intro to Carly Simon's "The Spy Who Loved Me" seemed pretty clearly lifted from "Mary Ann")...

The name of the Carly Simon tune is "Nobody Does It Better," although it is the theme to The Spy Who Loved Me (just watched that movie last night, it's a damn good Bond flick).

thanks...(damn senior moments!)

I don't know, I stumbled upon Alice Cooper's 1969 record "Pretties for You" and it is a fantastic mess of a record. A stab at psychedila, I guess and the acid really did seem to be working. It's very far out but also unbelievably terribly "produced" by the band. Everyone should hear it.

But..."Paranoid" and "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" are great in their own ways. It's a toss-up.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

"Welcome To My Nightmare" is the hidden gem in Alice Cooper's catalogue. May not be as famous as "School's Out" or "Billion Dollar Babies", but it's better than either.

Then again, maybe just as famous...

I don't know, I stumbled upon Alice Cooper's 1969 record "Pretties for You" and it is a fantastic mess of a record. A stab at psychedila, I guess and the acid really did seem to be working. It's very far out but also unbelievably terribly "produced" by the band. Everyone should hear it.

I like the first two records more than anything he did after. the coop was better off when he was shooting for some kind of stoned beatles sprawl and yes I know that's at odds with how 98.99% of the world feels about him.

the first time I ever same alice cooper he was doing "welcome to my nightmare" on the muppets show, so for me that was his biggest hit, once you're dancing with muppets you have truly made it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F-YNVRgbGyk

what a great clip...a lot of people might see that as a shark-jumping moment, but this was the 70's and back then, you were nobody until you sang with the Muppets...

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Well, looky looky.

coop got more votes than i thought