Early Joy Division

The darkness you hear gathering in JD is, of course, to do with IC's personal life (his marriage was breaking down following an affair with a record company person he met in Belgium, if I remember rightly), but it's surely also a lot to do with the cultural climate of the time: the fashionability of Germany thanks to 'Cabaret' and Bowie-Iggy's Berlin soujourn. This late 70s wannabe-Germanness continued to mark UK music up until this year, when the German-obsessed Mute Records was sold to EMI.

I think factors like these, rather than the influence of one producer, explain JD's 'lugubriousness'. The late 70s / early 80s was a time when Thanatos really was sexy. This led the 'Miserabilists' (many on Factory, 4AD, Mute) to find parallels in German culture, which tends to swing between -- if you like -- Joy and Division, ie jubilation in death (say Nazism) and guilt about its own excesses ('division' from its own sex- and-violence-combining appetites). You hear these themes in everything from 'Warm Leatherette' to 'Master and Servant', and certainly in JD.

I wouldn't take Barney's comments too seriously (note they were made in 1994). They had a complex relationship with Martin Hannett. If you read something like this : (http://home.wxs.nl/~frankbri/jdvextro.html), you'll get a fairly typical picture of a post-punk band, not particularly clued-up about recording techniques, simply going with the flow. Barney enthuses about some of Hannett's sonics in this piece.

At the start Hooky and Barney would have been pretty much happy to sound like an amalgam of The Stooges and The Pistols - they were essentially rockers. But it's clear that they were also beginning to listen to Kraftwerk, Berlin-Bowie/Pop, Eno etc in 77, and would not be opposed to bringing these sounds in. **Why did they continue with Hannett? Just for success? In other places they always said that they didn't care for success**

Again, I think you're taking this too literally. There was no plan. If they had have cared all that much about success they'd have disengaged from Factory entirely, as their distribution wasn't efficient enough or widespread enough to get records in the shops at the right time/right place.

Remember also that they had had a very bad experience with the 'Warsaw' sessions where John Auger/Bob Anderson had taken the tapes and added unwanted synth lines (to the 'slow' version of transmission, no love lost etc) without the band's consent. At least Hannett was a fellow Manc piss-artist. I would think that JD felt much more comfortable in the non-music biz Factory environment.

**Did nobody notice that he changed it around "Unknown Pleasures"?**

The vocals were varispeeded in the studio from Transmission/Unknown Pleasures onwards. As you say that's when IC changed from a punky rasp to 'singing'. He had no range though, and they used to change the pitch of the vocals to fit the music. There are some *relatively* high vocals on 'Closer' (Heart and Soul, for example) which are lifted in pitch.

Of course they couldn't change the pitch live, so he tried his best to 'sing' those numbers which needed that voice, whilst snarling older stuff like Warsaw, Shadowplay, Interzone, Digital.

**I'd also like to know if there are live bootlegs flying around from before the recording of "Unknown Pleasures" in April 1979.**

I don't know of any myself, but there is lots of info on the web. Someone will know, There are lots which were recorded in the spring and summer of 79 (YMCA, Bowdon Vale, Leeds Futurama, Liverpool Erics, Factory Club), but I don't know of anything from 1978. The Electric Circus tracks are 1977, when they were still Warsaw. I didn't see them play until late 1979.

bear in mind that i believe the real tension and potential parting of ways was between the "other three" and ian, as he's the one unable to progress out of a very narrow aesthetic and delivery => this is based on NO evidence except the sounds of the records (and the fact that new order clambered out from under the "germanness", w.hannett's help, while curtis buried himself in it for all time by dying while it still ruled)

During Bowie's Berlin period didn't he once attempt to visit the site of bunker claiming Hitler was 'a great man', or some such nonsense?

Hooky and Barney talking about Hannett :

["Martin didn't give a f- about making a pop record," enthuses Bernard. "All he wanted to do was experiment. His attitude was that you get a load of drugs, lock the door of the studio and you stay in there all night and you see what you've got the next morning. And you keep doing that until it's done. That's how all our records were made. We were on speed, Martin was into smack."

The band had never met anyone like it before. Peter Hook, in particular, took a while to get acclimatised.

"Bernard and I were very down to earth," he recalls, "and he was, like, from another planet. He was just this really weird hippy who never talked any sense at all. At least, I never knew what he was talking about anyway.

"Still, you had a rapport with him. He used to say to Rob, 'Get these two thick stupid c-s out of my way'. In the studio, we'd sit on the left, he'd sit on the right and if we said anything like, 'I think the guitars are a bit quiet, Martin,' he'd scream, 'Oh my God! Why don't you just f- off, you stupid retards.' It was alright at first, but gradually he started to get weirder and weirder."

Acting like a post-punk Phil Spector, Hannett would try his hardest to ignore the wishes of the band whenever possible, which meant most of the time the recording studio was the scene of epic battles for control. Invariably, Hannett won.

It's impossible to underestimate the contribution he made to Joy Division's music. He was certainly overwhelmingly responsible for fashioning the sound that six months later would manifest itself as the band's debut album and first masterpiece, 'Unknown Pleasures' - as far as Sumner and Hook were concerned it was designed as a raw rock record. ]

(**Hannett would try his hardest to ignore the wishes of the band whenever possible** A good thing!)

Also from the same place :

["He taught us what to do very early on," says Hook. "We learnt the actual physics of recording from him, although we could have learned it from anybody. But in the end there was too much compromise from both sides."

"Producing ourselves we get much more satisfaction," adds Sumner. "We know what we want and we can do it. With Martin the songs often turned out different, sometimes better, sometimes not".]

Also, it was Sumner, not Curtis, who shouted "you all forgot Rudolf Hess" at the Electric Circus.

As to what any of them have to say about any of it: I thought it had been established that artists are the least reliable critics of their own work, and untrustworthy historians of it as well. Is it not so. Yes it is. I am done ranting now.

In the original question Alex said - **By the way I think I prefer their early, unpolished, thrashy intonation and sound **

Alex - have you ever heard the Warsaw tracks from July 1977 (Inside The Line/Gutz/At A Later Date etc)? They're unpolished for sure.

The Buzzcocks were touring their third album and it was pretty obvious they would be soon falling apart - in contrast to the glorious pop splurge of the singles, the 'tension' album, is very edgy and paranoid. And so was that live performance especially a long drawn out version of 'I Believe' which ends in the plaintive, nearly agnry, repreated phrase ' there is no love left in the world anymore'.

Joy Division were probably not delivering a classic performance when I saw them, not in terms of the murky dispair of 'Still' or the agressive pent up pain of the Preston album - in fact they seemed pretty comfortable, playing mostly well established first album material (this site: http://www.warren.org.uk/music/joyd_setlists.html#13 suggests they would be playing not yet released second album stuff on other dates of the tour, but not at the Edinburgh gig I saw).

They - even Curtis - seemed relaxed and enjoying the show, the material was slick, even poppy, and I don't remember any poor playing (in contrast to the New Order April 81 show I saw). Joy Division were a great pop band once you removed all the European Goth Gloom. I don't think Curtis' voice sounds comfortable on the first album -its hard to remember how shocking his voice sounded on first hearing- and it is definately an affection (thats not a bad thing) which he grew into by the time of the second album - I am pretty sure he had grown into it by the October 79 gig I saw. Dr C what gig did you see?

What do you think about my suggestion that Curtis became 'comfortable' with his vocal affectation?

It would be interesting to find out when he first moves down a few octaves. If thats him saying 'You all forgot Rudoplh Hess' on the Electric Circus album then he didn't have a deep speaking voice... the only other spoken Curtis is the 'you should hear our version of Louie Louie' and thats not deep either. (And funnily enough I never noticed that until a mate mentioned it a few weeks ago - I guess I never got to the end of Sister Ray on Still before!)

But I think there is something else happening once he gets down there. The vocals on Transmission are not the same as Atmosphere, there is more fluidity and command /control (though not much more range!), its that quality I'm describing as 'comfortable' - I trying not to infer anything about his own state of mind with that term - obviously I have no information about that.

It's Barney, but there is other some Curtis on the Preston CD and on the Les Bains Douches he says "Welcome to the Atrocity Exhibition" at the start of that track. I reckon he has quite a deep voice which is not inconsistent with the way his vocals turned out.

Just about working through the CD3 of the "Heart and Soul" box.

Surprised how Iggy/Stooges a lot of it is, "Shadowplay" sounds like a cousin of "Nightclubbing" in a way.

One question: One of their sessions was prompted by someone wanting a 'punk' version of the old Northern Soul classic "Keep on keeping on". This was recorded by Joy Division, but never released. Does it even exist? If so, is someone sitting on it / keeping it from being released?

I talk a little about early JD here:

http://acuterecords.com/blog/?p=28

Iggy was such a huge influence, I always think of Mass Production, with it's slow tempo and emotive growl and droning synth washes as being some kind of template for Unknown Pleasures. There's a clip of Iggy performing in Manchester circa october 77 on Youtube and I like to imagine Joy Division and Magazine at the very least were in the audience.

i thought "interzone" was supposed to be based on "keep on keeping on"?

Total Iggyness going down

thanks for that. (xpost dan)

I didn't really get much into JD at the time: There were two double-single various artist sets that came out at the same time. The "Factory Sample" sold out, however, so I got the Good Vibrations "Battle of the Bands" one. Had I managed to get "Digital/Glass" at the time, maybe i'd have got into it more.

dan, is that YouTube clip the one of Iggy doing "The Passenger?" I've always thought that if JD had lasted longer, they would have covered that song. In fact, when I first heard it (I discovered Iggy late), I thought it sounded like a Joy Division song! Lyrics and everything (the repetitive doominess and relentlessness), so it comes as no surprise how much influence Iggy had on (at least) Curtis (if not the whole band).

Actually, now that I think about it, I think I heard Siouxsie's version first, which might have cemented the more gothic impression the song made on me.

Yeah, and a few others from that era. I came to Iggy solo really late, just a few years ago. You basically can't go wrong with The Idiot, Lust for Life and New Values. The Idiot made the first impact, as sonically, it's the most interesting, Eno-esque production, like side A of Low with simpler, more raw songs. However, I think the songs on Lust for Life are better. New Values I didn't like at all at first, again, I was probably looking for that heavy Berlin sound, but the songs grew on me.

I'm always envious of people who discover great stuff late. When it's me, I feel like that kid in the candy store everyone talks about. I'm not sure I've heard New Values, but I love the other two.

Without having any evidence, I would doubt Hannett varispeeded IC's voice THAT much -- upthread, it's discussed as if he went from singing like Shelley Duvall to Scott Walker bc of some choice Hannett made. At most, he's pitched down a whole step -- beyond that, it wouldn't sound human anymore. Just listen to the YouTube clip of "Dead Souls."

W respect to the "the band hated it" comment, I also think you have to account for how different Hannett's cavernous production style would've sounded in 1979. For guys like Barney and Hooky, who are used to amps and live playing and little more, that's gotta be shocking at first.

Songs on The Idiot are pretty good, Dan.

i think Ian would have really liked Zombie Birdhouse!

i remember hearing "Heart & Soul" for the first time and thinking "wow, where did THAT voice come from!?"

I didn't say I didn't like the songs on the Idiot, it's one of my favorite records, but I don't think there's anything as good as the Passenger or Some Weird Sin.

When I spoke to Peter Hook he said pretty much that, they were upset at how different the records sounded to their live sound, but they came around to it obviously.

All tracks written by Iggy Pop and David Bowie except where noted.

1. "Sister Midnight" (Pop, Bowie, Carlos Alomar) – 4:19
2. "Nightclubbing" – 4:14
3. "Funtime" – 2:54
4. "Baby" – 3:24
5. "China Girl" – 5:08
6. "Dum Dum Boys" – 7:12
7. "Tiny Girls" – 2:59
8. "Mass Production" – 8:24

I'd at least put "Nightclubbing" and "China Girl" up there with those, with "Sister Midnight" and "Dum Dum Boys" close runners up.

Just heard the demo of "Atmosphere", with the harmonium. Now that's great.

There are a bunch of tracks that are fantastic, the remainder are OK i suppose.

I'm always envious of people who discover great stuff late.

-- Lostandfound, Tuesday, 29 January 2008 19:00 (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

I dunno, I'd probably have liked it more at the time, but now it's all been diluted by bands supposedly *influenced* by them.

Took New Values down from the shelves over the weekend for the first time in probably decades and I was surprised to hear how fresh and punchy it was. "I'm Bored" in particular is fantastic (nearly as good as "I'm Bored" by the Bonzos in fact) mainly because Iggy sounds anything but bored.

As far as late JD goes, I note their invention of Boards of Canada on the Still live version of "Decades."