like how & what, exactly, do you, y'know, make hip-hop/electronic etc?

why without a computer? or are you asking if it's a necessity? i say doing without one is a waste of time. they're cheap as hell and can do pretty much anything.

I was in the same situation myself a few years ago. If you dont want to use a computer (and there is a lot to be said for not using computers, in terms of the way you interact with the sounds you make, but that's a tangent already), you need some kind of a sampler for the type of stuff you mention. The Boss samplers are great, perhaps not as "pro" as a second hand akai s2000 which would be around the same, and is more of an "instrument". That said, most of the Clouddead stuff was done on a Boss Sp202 (the older, cheaper version of the sp303) and a four-track tape machine, so that's an argument for the Boss. And it has a built-in-sequencer. It is basically a more basic version of the Akai MPC series of samplers, which are the hiphop standard (to the extent that there was a recent "Open MPC" night in NY, where hopefuls could bring their disks full of samples and sequences and stick them into the house MPC and bang out their tunes) Anything to get started with, really. I spent a couple of blissful years myself using a four-track and the super-cheapo sampling option on a DJ mixer, with a couple of dodgy old casio keyboards (the kind that you get for Christmas at age 11), and had a great time. The other route that a lot of people are taking is a PC with a soundcard and a CD full of pirated software... the ethics of which I won't go into. Where you start depends on your budget to an extent, but the important thing is to just get down to the job with whatever tools are at hand. The Boss would be a fine start. Rock on! PS: www.sospubs.co.uk for a ton of info on all of this shit.

It depends on what you want to make, and what your budget is, i would wait a bit and get a SP-505, it's a more advanced version of the SP- 303. It can except 128 megs of ram via smart media, has more effects,and a better sequencer. It can also keymap across a keyboard and has better pitch and beat matching features. it's about $200 more than the SP-303 ($500 to $300). you will also want a synth/keyboard for the more "electronic sounds". A VA is your best bet, The Novation K-station, is probably the best thing you could get here (it's around $700). However if you budget is tight i would recommend software, if you just want to get some quick stuff down try either fruity loops ($100) or reason,($300). both of these programs will get you started quickly and cheaply. Although some people believe that you can get better results from hardware.

Really, if you are starting from scratch hardware wise (i.e. no mixing board, no instruments, no nothing).

Even with a off the shelf PC, you can do alot with an inexpensive piece of software called Fruityloops. If you are wanting to edit loops, Acid can't be beat for the price. There is a version called Acid Music that is very inexpensive and comes bundeled with alot of Cd burners. (BTW, that is how I got mine.)

There are also a couple of pieces of shareware that are very powerful called Buzz and Audio Mulch, if you can get down with their quirks and interfaces. Audio Mulch is much more usable, but even if you wnat to register the software, it is only like $50 bucks. Buzz is free and there is a TON you can do with the software because of all of the things developed with it, but it's interface is something that will either lead to you becoming a convert or wishing you never heard of it. Buzz has quite a few quirks and bugs. (I'm impressed by what people have done with Buzz, but personally, I don't like it at all.)

As for the Boss sampler, personally, I think in the long run you would get more out finding a used Emu, Akai or Yamaha sampler. But to really get into using such a device, you will need other equipment and/or computer.

There is a newer Boss sampler that uses wav files and smart cards, so that might be more up your alley, as you could easily sample things and exchange files with a computer, using a smart card reader/writer.

thanks for your responses (and the link!). yes, i have no hardware at all, and in my country it's difficult to pick up stuff second- hand, and more obscure stuff tends to be horribly expensive.
also, i don't really know any of the terminology everyone takes for granted - what does the sequencer do?
apologies regarding my ignorance - this sort of stuff really isn't part of the culture here yet . . .

the sequencer is what you are using to tell the sampler when to play its samples. so if you have sampled a snare and kick drum, you program the sequencer to, for example, play a kick on the one and three of each measure, and the snare on the 2&4, so you dont have to keep pressing the keys every time. has anyone recommended Reason yet, im sure impressed with it

ah thanx. if you want to record a track, you'd need sampler+sequencer feeding into something? (well, alternatives to computers? digital four-tracks or something like that?)

in general, yes. but, and others correct me if im wrong, i believe that some ASR / Ensoniq samplers can be made to record 2-track(stereo) of some length in addition to the sequences being played?? if im right about this, you could do something like sequence your music track and then record vocals over it and have it all on that machine. of course you probably couldn't do much to it, like fix mistakes or cut parts out (i don't really know).

but i digress. yes, you'd want to have some kind of recording device. but unless you need to go over and over perfecting, editing etc. there's no reason why you couldn't just record things onto cassette if you can 'perform' them 'live'. well, i guess you'd need a mixer of some sort (to blend say, the sampler with the other audio, like vocals or scratching or keyboards)

this is why the computer route is so compelling, because so many of these functions can be done on one machine!!

A good place for second hand gear is ebay.com, if you cant get used stuff where you are. Just make sure whoever you buy off has good feedback (at least 30 positives is my personal rule of thumb). I have bought a ton of stuff there with no probs so far, some of it from US sellers who shipped it to me in Ireland. Type in "Emu sampler" or "akai sampler" and see what's on offer. (Emu samplers are considered better for mangling samples, and sound a bit bassier and warmer than Akai, although Akai have plenty of fans too. Its a bit like the whole "Mac vs PC" thing) I would also be wary of the whole smartmedia to PC transfer lark on the Boss machines, as it is said to be fiddly and unreliable. The Boss might be just what you need now, though, to make music easily and quickly rather than wading through manuals and saving for midi keyboards etc. You could always sell it when you grow out of it and buy something more powerful. Recording devices: you can get excellent deals on something like the Roland VS880 these days, which is a digital hard disk recorder. You can make release-quality recordings on them (I know a chap who did). ALthough you then have to buy a CD recorder for it... The whole thing is a bit of a money pit!

A big advantage of software When you get a track done with software such as this type, you "render" the track to a finished file. This means you don't need a pro level soundcard to be able to finish tracks.

Fruityloops, Audio Mulch, Fasttracker, Buzz, Reason, etc are softwares that use simple software versions of samplers and softsynths with there sequencer interface. Each are a bit different.

The other software like Acid or Ableton Live is more for editing together different sound files into tracks, not unlike a word processor, except using sound files instead of words.

If you have even a half way decent PC, you can download these softwares and give them a try. Take a search on the net, there is alot of information about them out there, as there are quite a few people world wide using them.

again, thanks for the info (eBay would be a really good idea, actually).
some more questions - what exactly does a soundcard do in a computer (what can you do with one? what can you do without one?) and using software, how much does the software's programming/design limit what you can do (due to constraints in how the software's been put together, I guess - or am I reciting anti-computer cant?)

what does a soundcard do? -well, basically, it converts sound from analogue to digital form. There are a zillion soundcards out there, which differ from each other mainly in the quality of the job that they do. You can pay thousands for a really good analogue to digital converter, like the ones they use in big studios. But you can also get a perfectly acceptable one for about $200 (US). The M-Audio Audiophile card is a very popular one for around this price ($180 or so I think), and is good value cos it also has a midi in and out (which you will need if you want to play any virtual instruments) and a digital in and out (a lot of samplers and synths and effects units have digital outs which connect in to this input on the soundcard so you dont have to convert back and forth as often). The best place that I know of to get the basic info on this stuff is Computer Music magazine, which has a beginners supplement every month (or it did last time I looked, but that was months ago). Try their website for online articles too. You may not even need a soundcard, though, if you use virtual synths to make sounds. Although if you want to sample from records, or record any external instruments, you will. You can sample from CDs or MP3s without a soundcard, though, you just convert them to wav format (the standard audio file format for music making on the PC). So if you have a PC and some software you can do a lot. Get a wave editor like the excellent and cheap CoolEdit and chop the samples into everyone's current favourite form, microsamples, throw on a few effects, and no-one will ever know where it came from. What kind of software is totally up to you. There are 3 main "virtual studio" packages. I use Logic Audio (www.emagic.de) which is really powerful but also tricky to get your head around initially. Cubase and Cakewalk's Sonar are the two main competitors. Sonar might be good for you, as it is a bit cheaper and much more user friendly, and equally good quality. These programs all started life as midi sequencers, and as computers got more powerful, incorporated audio processing too. They all have optional virtual samplers and synths, which basically do the same thing as a hardware one, generally with less hassle than the hardware versions (but maybe dont quite get there in terms of sound quality, especially on the filters). They also have virtual effects, so you can mangle the sound to your heart's content. There are lots of others too: Reason (www.propellerheads.se) is a big one for a lot of people too. Native Instruments (www.nativeinstruments.com) make crazy virtual instruments too. Earlnash mentioned some others, which are cheaper, and useful too. Download some demos and see what works for you. There aren't really limits built into software, the limitations you run up against are generally a lack of processing power in the computer, or of memory if you are using a lot of samples at once. A realistic PC basic spec would be a Pentium 3 700mhz or better with 256 mb of ram. That will get you plenty of audio tracks and effects at once. Obviously, though, a faster machine will let you do more. But if you run into limits, you can always render (aka bounce) the track to disk, thus freeing up the processing power that was used to run the effects plugins, vst instruments etc. I dont know where you are located. If you are in europe, a good place to buy stuff is Thomann's in germany. I think the website is thomann.de They are very cheap. I could go on all night here, but I have to get back to work. Onwards forwards, Conor