Nigel Williamson says punk was rubbish all along

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From today's Guardian.

For the article go to www.guardian.co.uk/arts/story/0,3604,723332,00.html.

Can anyone argue that this Ucunt should not be hurled into a ditch and be trampled upon as a matter of extreme urgency?

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

it has become heretical to point out that punk actually wasn't very good

surely, today this is not heretical at all, but is quite de rigeur. anyone, if i had been around in 76 i would probably have been swept up by it all. maybe. but looking back at it now i do not like the prog/punk dichotomy, i do not understand it, it takes no account of disco or funk (although is the funk/disco dichotomy an equally facile and reductive one as the prog/punk i wonder) or reggae (unless a) ska, or b) slightly later - and revisionistically?), anyway, kraftwerk for example, they just carried on pre/post/whatever.

i see that it may have had power at the time, but it doesn't speak to me, the only related bands from that era that i like are the fall and the ramones, and i don't really know whether you could call either punk?

― gareth, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

where's bill grundy now?

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

haha where's raoul veneigem now

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Don't ask such cuntish questions

― Andrew L, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

only when my mum's gone out

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Six feet under for the last decade or so, I believe.

Gareth, you clearly haven't read the article yet; I urge you to do so. This is a man who would clearly not even brook the concept of Kraftwerk, let alone ANYTHING interesting that was going on in music at ANY time. See what a complete fucking mess he's made of Uncut for proof of where this sort of thinking gets you - a dead end.

A dead end soaked in tequila at a wracked and harrowing crossroads.

And I bet he hated "Low" at the time it came out.

― Marvello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"the real punks aren't reading the guardian" — m.mclaren

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That's Bill Grundy who's six feet under, of course.

And Tommy Boyd set the whole damn thing up anyway.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The real punks were listening to "Magic Fly" and "Dancing In Your Head" in '77 ;)

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah vaneigem had a book out (i think it was an eater biog)

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Eater! Hammersmith's finest!

No other great band ever came out of Hammersmith bar Roy Vedas who were strictly speaking Brook Green.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The Hammersmith Gorillaz!!

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ah Sinker, you really got me.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And hats off to the late, lamented Gideon Sams while we're at it.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

When I was at ATP this year I finally got to see Don Letts' 'Punk Rock Movie', which included some GRATE footage of Eater smashing up a pig's head on stage. They sounded like a slightly less musical Sham 69 - incredible (artifical?) energy. Best moment in the flick - shots of the police raiding Sex, soundtracked by an esp. dreamy King Tubby track.

― Andrew L, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

To be expected.

The worst thing about the article is not the fact that he concludes that punk was rubbish (it wasn't, but it's worth a debate) but the dull-witted, reactionary way that he reaches that conclusion.

THIS PARAGRAPH : **In fact its influence was ephemeral and ultimately did us no good at all. By the end of the 1970s, punk's self-styled barbarians at the gate had exhausted themselves and pop music went back to its same old ways. Only worse - as the 1980s were drowned out in tinny synthesizers and boring drum machines programmed by men with risible perms. And the old farts the punk hordes promised to consign to the dustbin of history? They just go on and on**

IS SO UTTERLY F@CKING WRONG in so many ways that I don't know where to start. Punk opened up the doors and allowed so many great records to be made - with guitars, with no guitars, with synths, in bedrooms.... It's a cliche, but it's true.

― Dr. C, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think the Lurkers came from Fulham, which is in the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. Talk about a treat!

― Andrew L, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

**See what a complete fucking mess he's made of Uncut for proof of where this sort of thinking gets you - a dead end**

Well he's not the editor, but he IS on just about every page.

― Dr. C, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"i'm hurting"

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i did read the article, and yes, he isn't the kind of person i agree with (no idea about uncut, i've never read it), but what surprises me is his take that it is heretical to attack punk, when it quite clearly isn't. i'm not really sure who this article is aimed at

― gareth, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Why, Guardian readers of course.

Or at the very least Tom Cox.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Watch out for the forthcoming "box set" issue of Uncut (as per Select in the early '90s; remember when they used to come out in boxes?) which I am reliably informed will contain a DVD of "Bring Me The Head Of Alfredo Garcia" specially soaked in Tarquin's Tequila (of Tamworth), a Johnny Dowd CD with half the cover torn off by bloodied fingernails, plus some planks of wood and barbed wire upon which readers can impale themselves to understand the depths of despair.

Oh yes, and a free copy of Nick Johnstone's book with specially commissioned new foreword by Hamill on Trial (normal rrp: £2.99).

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yes Marcello, Nick Johnstone is another fuckin wracked, whiskey sodden dullard. I'm still buying the fucking thing and own every issue since it's 1997 inception although I painfully gave over 7 euros plus for the last Bob Dylan borefest. Williamsom however (even his name conjures up images of some horrible Surrey based prog rock twin headed bassist) is the one reviewer I consistently skip over -- he gets all the prog and Fairport Convention type early 70's folk reviews.

― David Gunnip, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I would be interested in reading a good argument about why punk was rubbish, but this sure ain't it.

1. It's based on such a narrow Brit'76-centric view of what punk is. All he's really saying that the Pistols, Clash, Siouxsie, Damned and Slaughter and The Dogs were not Elvis Costello and Ian Dury. Which is, well, duh.

2. Saying "Punk is Rubbish" is as insupportable as saying "The colour blue is rubbish" or "Russians are rubbish". Punk is (arguably) Billy The Kid, Jesse James, Henry Miller, the Dead End Kids, Charlie Starkweather, Frankenstein, Iago, Robert Mitchum, Stravinsky, Hank Williams, George Jones, Johnny Cash, Waylon Jennings, Hasil Adkins, Gene Vincent, ? and the Mysterians, Jackson Pollock, The Dictators, The Mops, The Standells, Bob Dylan going electric, Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five, Afrika Bambaata, NWA, Eminem etc. etc. etc. It wasn't new in 1976 and it's not old now - it is.

2. It's a boring argument - the same one made against it since day zero. Anyone who says punk sucked because band x "can barely play their instruments...{every} song sounds the same as the last" has stopped thinking.

Too bad The Roogalator didn't show up that night though.

P.S. "Physical Graffiti" is not the "heaviest album" of Led Zep's career, as any fool knows.

― fritz, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Funny that he says the pistols could barely play because Ben Watson said he went to a gig of theirs and that they could (including Sid) and did sound well rehearsed.

I think if it was just the first wave punk and there was no new wave/no wave/raincoats/Ubu or SST/Homestead I'd say he would be correct (despite the fact I hate Nigel williamson).

He says the pistols released a great album but it isn't (though there is something there, I wish I'd seen them live etc). The clash/banshees were garbage. I have utter contempt for most NY punk apart from suicide (who use electronics and were despised).

I like the confrontational aspect of it but those records don't stand up (just heard some of the albums and tracks of others on radio and was not impressed).

― Julio Desouza, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

he thinks records "stand up" = he is thinking of megaliths

― it is the colour YELLOW which is rubbish obv, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

'Stand up' as what??? And I don't need Ben Watson to tell me that the Sex Pistols cld play a bit.

― Andrew L, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

no but they were "well rehearsed" andrew!!

― ok look i wuv BW but he is a Lifelong Exercise in Missing the Point, Punkwise (a, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Question:

Does anyone think the Fall, Gang of Four, Joy Division, Raincoats, Buzzcocks, Pop Group, etc (basically the great groups that emerged in the Pistols wake) would have emerged if not for the Pistols (and all the other 1st wave punkers)?

I'm not sure this is an answerable question (or even a valid one) but I'm curious what people think about this.

― Alex in SF, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

yes but they would all have sounded like sad cafe

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

More relevant, perhaps, given the examples you cite: could any of these groups have existed without Can?

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The Damned's first album is great. Slaughter and the Dogs made two great singles. Eater were rubbish though.

Can someone find a 'best new band' poll listing from one of the inkies for 1976? As well as a few punk precursors (Dr Feelgood, Eddie and the Hot Rods etc) most of the emerging talent from that period (Druid, Doctors Of Madness, Strapps, Lone Star, Racing Cars etc) were terrible.

I liked the bit in the article where he says 'I was 22 in 1976 I should have liked punk'. Oh right.

― Alexander Blair, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Doctors of Madness were grate!! They had Urban Blitz on electric violin!!

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

NME Readers' Poll results - 1976:

Album - Led Zeppelin - The Song Remains The Same

Bass - Paul McCartney

Best Dressed LP - Led Zeppelin - The Song Remains The Same

DJ- John Peel

Drums - John Bonham

Female Singer - Linda Ronstadt

Guitar - Jimmy Page

Instrumental Personality - Mike Oldfield

Klutz/Creep Of The Year - Sex Pistols

Male Singer -Robert Plant

Most Missed Dead Act - Jimi Hendrix

Most Wonderful Human Being - Johnny Rotten

New Group/Most Promising - Eddie & The Hot Rods

Piano/Keyboards - Rick Wakeman

Radio Show - Alan Freeman's Saturday Show

Single - Thin Lizzy - The Boys Are Back In Town

Songwriter - Bob Dylan

TV Show - The Old Grey Whistle Test

Vocal Group - Led Zeppelin

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Marcello, probably not. Hahaha.

― Alex in SF, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And let us not forget that Lol Coxhill played with the Damned for a period - he appears on their second album and was regularly on stage with them, going his own sweet way in his golfing pullover and being gobbed on more than anyone else in the band. Magic.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

1976 NME readers end of year list

Bass - Paul Mccartney
Best Dressed Lp - Led Zeppelin-Song Never Remains The Same
Discjockey - John Peel
Drums - John Bonham
Female Singer - Linda Ronstadt (wot no Patti Smith)
Guitar - Jimmy Page
Instrumental Personality - Mike Oldfield
Klutz/Creep Of The Year - Sex Pistols
Male Singer -Robert Plant
Most Missed Dead Act - Jimi Hendrix
Most Wonderful Humanbeing - Johnny Rotten
New Group/Most Promising - Eddie & The Hot Rods
Piano/Keyboards - Rick Wakeman
Radio Show - Alan Freeman's Saturday Show
Single - Thin Lizzy-The Boys Are Back In Town
Songwriters - Bob Dylan
Tv Show - The Old Grey Whistle Test
Vocal Group - Led Zeppelin

― Billy D, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Damn, beaten by Marcello (but I win points for fromatting).

― Billy D, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Fromatting?

Isn't rocklist.net a wonderful thing?

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Fromatting? You really don't want to know Marcello.

― Billy D, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

**Does anyone think the Fall, Gang of Four, Joy Division, Raincoats, Buzzcocks, Pop Group, etc (basically the great groups that emerged in the Pistols wake) would have emerged if not for the Pistols (and all the other 1st wave punkers)?**

Fall, JD, Raincoats, Buzzcocks wouldn't have. Pop Group would've been like late Soft Machine or summat.

**More relevant, perhaps, given the examples you cite: could any of these groups have existed without Can?**

Not sure about this - I currently reckon that Can's influence is over- emphasised. yes, I know Lydon liked them.

― Dr. C, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

all influence is overemphasised

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Pete Shelley also helped to compile a Can comp when the Buzzcocks were on UA.

― Andrew L, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"In fact its influence was ephemeral and ultimately did us no good at all"

I might say the same thing if I were regularly to be found "at recent gigs by the likes of the Strokes, the White Stripes and Black Rebel Motorcycle Club". Windbag.

― The Actual Mr. Jones, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

''he thinks records "stand up" = he is thinking of megaliths''

What I am saying is stand up over a period of time. Never mind the bollocks, the clash, etc. could've been great at the time they were released. But now I can say they are not that good.

The Ben Watson thing= just wanted to say that there are all of these accounts that go against each other (therefore I wish I was there).

― Julio Desouza, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Let's face it, Nigel Williamson is rubbish. This is the man who gave the fucking EAGLES a five star review in Uncut and called them the best band of the Seventies. Who really cares what he thinks?

Only naming the Pistols, Clash, Siouxsie, the Damned, Sham 69 and Slaughter and the Dogs is a serious underestimation of punk. What about the Slits, X-Ray Spex, the Buzzcocks, Penetration, Subway Sect, and The Adverts? All far better than any of the above (except the Pistols, and a couple of early Clash songs).

Elvis Costello may have astutely adopted some of the "fuck you" attitude of punk. But he always knew more than three chords, and hardly needed the example of Johnny Rotten to make albums such as My Aim Is True and This Year's Model.

Oh, really? Just take a listen to those early demos on the remastered My Aim Is True. Before he heard punk rock, Mr. McManus was trying to be the next Randy Newman.

― Justyn Dillingham, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

''ok look i wuv BW but he is a Lifelong Exercise in Missing the Point, Punkwise (and when he finally googles ILM i am *SO* dead!!)''

Hey, perharps i might email the mterialist esthetix website inviting Ben to join our discussions here on ILM. How abt it Mark?

― Julio Desouza, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Justyn, Randy Newman is way more punk than EC ever was.

― Billy Dods, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

re "standing up over a period of time": yes that is what i meant too... viz megaliths
re BW: erm *meep* *runs away*

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It was an unspeakably rubbish article, packed with nonsense, omissions, straw man arguments and illogicalities. Among the dumbest and least interesting articles I've ever read in The Guardian.

― Martin Skidmore, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Williamson always used to write for those most reliable of self- contradictory royal arselickers, The Times. Enough fucking said I think.

― Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Could any of these groups have existed without Can?" you ask.

Yes, they would have done fine without Can... but would have been nowhere without the Ramones, and the UK tour they did in '75.

― Andy, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Look on the bright side, at least it wasn't written by Polly Toynbee. "Punk is good because it's nothing to do with the evil evil "Christian" movement. Punk would be better if it was made solely by single mothers and Norwegian black-metallers"

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Nigel Williamson is clearly a silly old fart, as proved beyond all possible doubt by thee anti-synth act bit posted by Dr C above. Penetration seem to have reformed and are doing thee odd gig up 'ere. The Damned were GRATE.

― Norman Phay, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Even for the Guardian, this is a very poorly written music piece that manages to completely miss the point of everything.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Blimey now I actually understand the point of all the conversations I had this evening.

It did enable me to hatch my new theory i.e. 22 year olds have the worst music taste of anyone.

― Tom, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Why 22, Tom?

― Michael Bourke, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Re: It did enable me to hatch my new theory i.e. 22 year olds have the worst music taste of anyone.

Blame it on blank brit-pop generation 1995, these kids were 15 then. Your theory has been tested and proven correct Tom.

also:

As a few have mentioned, look at the source of the article Nigel Williamson first not the actual message. NW has reputation of supporting trad rock/alt.country proper music with trad songs structure. NW opinions are not worth/ worthy of debate - the man is a proper songs retro rock dullard, take him to stocks for ridicule, anyone got some "fresh fruit and rotten veg" to pelt him with ;)

― DJ Martian, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

DJ M you are 22 at heart!

― Tom, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

question to WHOLE thread (since dr c, who promised to research the fact, is still i assume labouring back to twickenham): what is n.williamson's provenance? if 22 in 1976, where did he used to write for? when did he start? WHERE DID HE COME FROM? He was *not* on-radar in the 80s, I am sure of it (and marcello and dr c agreed).

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

he probably is a boozing pal of Alan "americana" Jones?

― DJ Martian, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

He used to write on the interweb. Nigel in 1976 = me in 1996 (worst year for pop as proved by Carlin-science).

― Tom, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

NW has reputation of supporting trad rock/alt.country proper music with trad songs structure

Hey! Careful how you throw around those initials!

― Nicole, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry Nicole, but I did mention Nigel's full name first then used the initials, it is getting late in the UK you know?

― DJ Martian, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

dr c is a boozing pal of mr jones: hence his research

get away from us nicole, with your fondness for AABACABA and folderol

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I was just kidding DJ Martian, though it was kinda disturbing to see my initials associated w/ick views.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

**since dr c, who promised to research the fact, is still i assume labouring back to twickenham**

Not half - train situation was decidedly dodgy at Waterloo (one single evening with no Transport secretary in place and the whole system gets even worse - appoint someone quick!) and I had to walk from Teddington. Didn't get back until 1.00am, BUT I did see a very nice fox.

― Dr. C, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Look at this :

http://www.dg28.com/jan-williamson.html

― Dr. C, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's a Duck's De-Luxe Roadie.

― Dr. C, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

**Penetration seem to have reformed and are doing thee odd gig up 'ere.**

Bloody Hell! What does Pauline look like, Norm? Still panda-eyed goddess? Is Fred Purser involved? - if so I guess they'll sound like Rush.

― Dr. C, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's this afternoon's urgent Liver Clinic referral!

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I refer of course to Mr Williamson rather than to the doubtless delightful Ms Pauline Murray.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

My response to Mr. I Heart Little Feat, from my blog.

― Jody Beth Rosen, Saturday, 1 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

one year passes...

"Eater! Hammersmith's finest!"

Ummm, actually I think you'll find Eater were from Finchley.

Dr. C - re: Penetration it's only Pauline and Robert from the original line-up. Seen 'em twice so far since they reformed (same number of times as I saw them first time 'round IIRC!) and they are great. Playing at Shepherds Bush Empire on 13/09. I may be going but only if I can wangle my way onto the guest list (old habits die hard!).

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Where's Nigel Williamson Now?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 11:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Uncut.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)

What I really meant to say was "who is Nigel Williamson?" But couldn't resist the urge to make a cheap punk-related allusion. Uncut? More like Unread.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 11:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I read it this weekend! It was kind of rubbish! I still buy it for journeys!

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 11:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you! Good! I've bought it once I think! For the CD on the cover! The CD was good! The magazine wasn't!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I flip through it every month to read Marcello's reviews and put it back on the stand. Next month it's bloody John Lennon on the cover again! (I luv him but this is like the third time in two years!)

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 11:56 (twenty-two years ago)

John & Yoko were on the one I bought. Surely not two months in a row? Someone wrote in last month to complain about Ryan Adams being on the cover CD every issue. There's usually one or two interesting tracks though.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 12:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I used to buy just for the CDs, which had half a dozen good tracks. but i can't do that anymore.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 12:59 (twenty-two years ago)

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Nigel Williamson says punk was rubbish all along - comments please