With producers like these, who needs enemies...

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We've all heard the stories about how "Colonel" Tom Parker's meddling stifled alot of great opportunies for Elvis Presley; whereas the Beatles blossomed because Brian Epstein and George Martin were genuinely sympathetic to them.
It makes me wonder sometimes if some of the more reviled musical acts out there would make less unctous music if they got away from the vampiric clutches of BAD producers and BAD managers.
For example: Imagine if DIANE WARREN did NOT exist...
Michael Bolton would've been nurtured by Rick Rubin, and he'd be a helluvalot more interesting.
Celine Dion might be a backup singer for Loreena McKennitt or the McGarrigle sisters.

Or For another example: No MAURICE STARR!
Menudo might've be a more pop friendly Los Lobos. The New Kids on the Block end up as white mans Boys II Men rather than a 90s version of the Monkees. N'Sync fail in their mission and get taken back to whatever dimension they were spawned in.

― Lord Custos X, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Insert New "What If Brian Eno Produced The Spice Girls" Answers Here.

― Lord Custos X, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

This one guy comes to mind- Malcolm McSomethingorother...

― Nate Patrin, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

producers and managers are not the same thing

w/o mclaren, the sex pistols would not exist AT ALL, and all uk music wd sound like sad cafe

― mark s, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You sure someone else wouldn't've gone to a Ramones show when they came to the UK, went "HOLY SHIT WOW", cut a single inspired by said Noo Yawk band and caused at least some sort of commotion? If so, would they have to talk shit about the Queen to inspire a whole mess of other bands? I mean, it probably wouldn't have the same impact as the Sex Pistols scenario but there might have been some sort of groundswell- only probably more similar to the subtle scenester buzz of New York than the FILTH GOBBING BILL GRUNDY SHOCKER sensationalism.

― Nate Patrin, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

subtle scenester buzz = they do not have a #1 single = no one notices or cares

haha sad safe = subtle scenester buzz anyway, just west coast not east

― mark s, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

yes, nate, but even if someone else had masterminded the sex pistols (not only unlikely but impossible), we'd still have no "double dutch" and "buffalo gals."

― jess s ("the s stands for superfluous."), Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ARE U2 sounding so dull beacause of the arty edge given by eno's work as producer? dream collaborations jim o rourke + cindy lauper, cornelius+brigitte fontaine...

― francesco, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Or NY Dolls dressed like Communists, which must've been a sight.

― Nate Patrin, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

subtle scenester buzz = they do not have a #1 single = no one notices or cares

Except like all the people that buy the record and form their own bands (lots of boring critics call this the "Velvet Underground effect")

― Nate Patrin, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah but velvets effect = less than inconsequential till after the pistols got to #1

― mark s, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

how come no one used these arguments on the indie guilt thread?

― jess, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

''yeah but velvets effect = less than inconsequential till after the pistols got to #1''

Velvet effect on indie= only the boring tracks ('I'll be your mirror') had any effect. They were the only ones that were ripped off by UK rock/indie.

Therefore effect=Pastels, etc.(the worst bands evah!)

Pistols= boring rock (from records) and have nothing to do with Velvets (who made 'white light/white heat': one of the great records).

― Julio Desouza, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

McLaren sells tons and tons of trewsers (but not the NY Dolls) to America => punk happens without Pistols => i.e. straight to indie with no (cough) cultural irruption and not much FUN.

The answer to the question is Ian Broudie. And Chris Blackwell, poss.

― Tim, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

args not used cz nate (sensibly) baled, chuckling, and i was fighting with the wifebeater

julio are you know arguing that the pistols' SINGLES are on the face of it bad (= "don't stand up") as rock? (or pop heh?)

― mark s, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

mark, the real fans obviously aren't buying the singles.

― jess, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

blimey, and it's my own petard, too!!

― mark s, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

obviously, the real fans aren't using this thread anymore.

― jess, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(in other words i felt this deserved its own discussion.)

― jess, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I want U2 to do something with Alec Empire. I'd buy that.

― Dan Perry, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Apropos of nothing, what is a petard? And how do you hoist someone by it?

― dave k, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hilariously enuff a petard is a BOMB ON A POINTY STICK => you stuck into the side of a castle and ran away, unless by mistake you caught yr hoodie on it, in which case you were hoist on yr own etc etc (this is TRUE!)

― mark s, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

''julio are you know arguing that the pistols' SINGLES are on the face of it bad (= "don't stand up") as rock? (or pop heh?)''

The pistols are overrated. The controversy was generated by the tabloids and they'll stir up anything. Its all a bit overproduced though when you listen to it theres an impact (mostly due to the lyrics) (therefore wish I'd seen them live).

Mark= I don't get the connction between velvets and pistols. Explain?

― Julio Desouza, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd say the Velvets were as much of a hype as the Pistols - just an 'underground' hype as opposed to a tabloid one. Their so-called originality is also overrated - VU & N wouldn't be such a big deal if it hadn't come out in the year of the hippies, when its drone-y urban angst seemed a lot more interesting. I think VU and Loaded were their best albums.

The Pistols were "boring rock"? Maybe if you think all rock is by definition boring...

― Justyn Dillingham, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Julio I like your posts a lot better when they incorporate third-generation ILE sinkerisms!

NB this is not a joke or an insult.

― Josh, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I wish Cher would get back with Snuff Garrett.

― Arthur, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

''I'd say the Velvets were as much of a hype as the Pistols - just an 'underground' hype as opposed to a tabloid on''

Hey, the Velvets produced a lot of shit (the last two albums and some songs on the first) but their best moments justify any 'hype' (it should be not only 'under-' but 'over-' ground too) that may surround this lot.

''Their so-called originality is also overrated - VU & N wouldn't be such a big deal if it hadn't come out in the year of the hippies''

I don't care what year it came out. 'White light..' is a great record, no matter the year. Its not because its original, I don't have loads of records to make such judgements but it fucking rocks, and if you think 'Never Mind the Bollocks' is a greater record then you've got to sort your ears out, man.

''Julio I like your posts a lot better when they incorporate third- generation ILE sinkerisms''

What's that?!

― Julio Desouza, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

that's hilarious! i always thought it was some kind of ropey belt thing and when you were hoisted by it, it meant they'd tie it to a flagpole rope and run you up the pole or something. i had no reason for thinking this, it just seemed like a neat idea. this stick-bomb gadgit is even better, though.

― dave k, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

connection is that the pistols at #1 made listening to wl/wh the way you currently do possible

bollocks is a much much MUCH more complex record than any velvets record, and much less interested in its own success as an object of veneration => it plays far more violently and dramatically with the possibility of its own worthlessness, and yrs for paying it attention (vu had a buncha avant garde get-out clauses, after all)

― mark s, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

''bollocks is a much much MUCH more complex record than any velvets record''

Its not that I find it a more complex record than 'bollocks'. I find White light a better rock recording. The riffage, the vocals...its a better rock n' roll record (despite some of it being rooted in more 'avant' ideas).

''and much less interested in its own success as an object of veneration => it plays far more violently and dramatically with the possibility of its own worthlessness, and yrs for paying it attention''

Where do you get that from? I think that the pistols were far more hungry for success than the Velvets.

and how does it tie in with yr original dodgy statement: ''yeah but velvets effect = less than inconsequential till after the pistols got to #1''

― Julio Desouza, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

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