a poll: the miseducation of lauryn hill

i'm looking at that list of songs and thinking maybe every single one except the bonus covers has a claim here

How's it not "Everything Is Everything"?

tl;dl

i'm leaning 'lost ones' or 'final hour'. so righteous. but yeah 'everything is everything' is still immense, the rap is just WHOA. "bomb graffiti on the tomb of nefertiti, MCs ain't ready to take it to the serengeti"

A Poll We Can Believe In

also it may be foolish to front like 'ex factor' isn't the easy favourite in different situations. real talk!!

"Lost One." Even though I loved the Fugees album, I was unprepared by how fierce this song was. What a great first track.

i know right - the no-nonsense beat and then that cold, contemptuous "it's funny how money change a situation" BAM.

As awesome as this album is, it's all downhill from "Lost Ones"

all of the singles from this are so great. EIE ftw.

"Ex-Factor" was one of my biggest jams from a really great period in R&B radio

The Miseducation Of Lauryn Hill

woops i mwat Can't Take My Eyes Off You

Tell me who i have to be to get some reciprocity. See no one loves you more than me, and no one ever will.

i would like a re-edit of this without all the interstitial chatter. one or two doses of that would have been plenty.

(and "lost ones," ftw.)

i would like a re-edit of this without all the interstitial chatter. one or two doses of that would have been plenty.

― tipsy mothra, Tuesday, January 6, 2009 11:49 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

OTM, sold it back because of this I think. The songs themselves are KILLER. "Lost Ones" and "I Used To Love Him" are maybe the only ones that can really compete with the singles but that's okay because the singles are AMAZING on this album. "Ex-Factor" for the win.

best songs:

Lost Ones
Ex-Factor
To Zion
Doo Wop (That Thing)
The Miseducation Of Lauryn Hill
Can't Take My Eyes Off You
Tell Him

cant really remember the rest.

Maybe it's because I only heard it after the neo-soul revolution or whatever, but this album bores the shit out of me.

I once got into an argument about it and I was defending it for 10 minutes before I realized I actually agreed with everything the other guy was saying.

so impossible - the singing, the rapping, all of it is just so incredible in one package

always dreamed of her doing a huge duets album with d'angelo but then they both got weird and vanished

plz explain HOOS

I mean I didn't hear this until like 2006 and was like "hey this is kinda like India.Arie and Jill Stone and Erykah except less compelling to me it's just kinda blase"

Jill SCOTT not Stone obv

no YOU were blase

I'm not crazy about "To Zion." The vocals are too wobbly; she's not strong enough as a singer to create a melody where one doesn't exist.

shes never sounded like other neo soul artists (ie - new agey, artsy, pretentious) which is what was good about her.

well she wasnt pretentious until that unplugged album.

waht? i like this album, but it's totally pretentious.

What do you mean when you say this is album is pretentious? What are you keying in on here and is "pretentious" really the word you mean to use? (I can get behind "precocious", "bombastic" and "arrogant" but they're all done in a very compelling, positive way.)

Zoomed straight for "Ex-Factor"

DP, I'm pretty sure he's saying that it's not pretentious, i.e. (well she wasnt pretentious until that unplugged album.), although there are plenty of other nu-soul singers who weren't new-agey or artsy or pretentious, so that seems like a red herring in the first place.

Superstar
Final Hour
When It Hurts So Bad
I Used To Love Him
Forgive Them Father

What a dry spell, although the bookends are great.

Uh, those parentheses should have been quote marks. Not sure why that happened.

by pretentious i mean i think it has a sort of overbearing insistence on its own importance -- which is offset by having lots of good-to-great tracks.

Ha Rev, I was talking to tipsy.

I think I make the distinction between "self-important" and "pretentious" here precisely because the album is so great; it's one thing to come across all "this is the baddest shit ever" if you actually release something that is fair-at-best, but when your output matches the swagger that goes with it, you can't really say it's pretending to be something it's not. (Whereas the second album is pretending to be deep and philosophical when it is actually paranoid, crazy, and a little pitiful.)

oh, ha I didn't see tipsy's post for some reason or other

It does have a "this is important cause Lauryn Hill thinks it's important" vibe to it, but fortunately for her she was in such a position at that time that she could get away with it.

this album blows id rather bang out to da real world or diamond princess or unladylike or even gotdamn ms jade than ever spend 2 secs thinkin about lauryn hill ever again

yeah there were other neo soul singers who werent 'pretentious' (im not necessarily using that word as a criticism here) but by and large, the ones who got best known were on some level, ie erykah, dangelo, jill scott, bilal etc. maxwell wasnt, well not til embrya. but lauryn always seemed well apart from those guys (duet with dangelo excepted) - she seemed more in the line of the more popular 60s/70s soul singers rather than the auteur types that badu, dangelo and co were in love with.

B-b-but wouldn't L. Hill count as (and consider herself) an auteur?

These days I wouldn't be surprised of Lauryn considered herself to be a magical princess from the land of Hiphopia.

Ex Factor

Used to go to this pub during lunch and every day the jukebox banged out 'Lost Ones'. barmaid's choice i guess. unfortunately she also loved Californication LP.

that sweet sweet first note of the chorus of Doo Wop is an all-time hairs-on-the-back-of-the-neck moment for me. so many great times dancing/listening/singing along to this song, it gets my vote.

Hard not to vote for the Can't Take My Eyes Off You cover.

...but yeah, LOST ONES.

Everything is Everything is a v close 2nd though.

whatta great album -- im goin for doo wop, but the the title song and lost ones are rul rad, too.

Much as I love these songs, this album is killed for me by the stupid 'afrocentric' classroom self-esteem building crapola. Ruined it. Though I'd vote for To Zion, well 2/3 of it, until it gets to that "Marching marching marching" shite.

Lauryn Hill: another good argument against religion.

the middle of the album is a grind too.

i haven't chosen yet, but i just want to say that in my experience, years after the release, any time "ex-factor" is played, any and all women within hearing distance end up singing along to every word.

voted ex factor.

Every song.

why don't i remember any of them after the album ends?

It's a landmark, etc. I didn't and don't much care for it -- her beats are better than her tunes. "Lost Ones" remains a fucking jam.

About the only things I can remember are the sound of a school bell and the phrase "You might win some but you just lost one."

wow austin. this is like when one of my oldest friends told me he wasn’t feeling Fury Road. i was like….. i thought i knew you

if anything miseducation is, to quote Alba from long ago, so overrated it’s underrated

here's how i always looked at it:

there was two versions of lauryn: "fu-gee-la" badass do it all b-girl or "killing me softly" pop radio crooner.

they tried to mash the two together and invited carlos santana to get even more boomers on board. nah, pass.

I think you looked at it wrong.

It isn't a binary. The singer-rapper-producer loved '70s balladry, and for college-age me I appreciated her tutorial in Roberta Flack, who only recently has earned the plaudits she deserved.

if you can’t remember “ex-factor” the problem is you

longtime fugees fan ready for her to get her spotlight proper — was that not the correct vantage point?

of course it happened anyway, but i wasn't on board because the music just wasn't that good.

also funny you say that, alfred. i initially heard roberta flack's first take around the same time. it sounded like the "real" version of what miseducation was trying to do.

if you can’t remember “ex-factor” the problem is you

― J0rdan S., Saturday, June 11, 2022 11:44 AM

you mean "can't it be all so simple (lauryn hill remix)"?

(said as someone who doesn't really think wu-tang is worthy of their hype either)

https://c.tenor.com/eajqzzS4FTsAAAAC/ah-sunlight-i-hate-sunlight-zartan.gif

Hey where'd you get that video clip of me.

i'm trying to think of something nice to say about this album and the only thing i can come up with is "at least it wasn't so bad that it made me angry." because there were plenty of albums in 98 that did. some really good beats on here i guess.

speaking of, unrelated: one of the most confusing things ever in the liner notes is david axelrod's "tony poem" receiving a sample credit on "every ghetto every city" (one of the better tracks on here, tbh). there's no sample of "tony poem" in that song and i don't think i've ever seen an explanation of how/why that happened. it says the song "contains replayed elements of" tony poem on newer pressings, but uhh? not really? the beat does kind of sound like the breakdown in "tony poem" but that was such an obscure record at the time, i don't think they needed to worry about getting sued. the confusion was compounded when she got in trouble for not giving the musicians on the album their proper credit. but sure, go ahead and list samples that aren't in there????

xpost to alfred

i feel like "this album is overrated" was a fairly standard opinion about it among music critic types pretty much immediately? i think xgau's review which literally calls it the "p.c. record of the year" says it all really *eyeroll*

like yes, the starmaking machinery had indeed conspired to make something that could be signaled to boomers as a boundary-crossing event by a visionary genius -- frankly, insufficiently crediting others involved in its genesis was undoubtedly part of creating that mystique -- with enough attitude + sharply-produced hits to keep the younger/hipper crowds onboard

but the songs were actually great, and quite a few have objectively endured beyond just 'the hits'?? like, "lost ones" was dropped as a buzz track prior to the album's release and every now and again i'll still hear it mixed into a dj's set, and it fucking hits. "nothing even matters" persists on quiet storm programming to this day and yes, i will leave it on and tap along to the fingersnaps and let myself get lost in its effortless vibe. i recall quite a few artists performing or recording versions of the album cuts many years to promote their own work as they broke out years later, from more obvious acolytes like jazmine sullivan to more unexpected ones like colbie caillat (lol). i haven't listened to the album in many years and just browsing the tracklist i still fondly identify many of its album cuts among, admittedly, some more middling material. but honestly, some of the tracks i think are middling are those that those who don't like the album will identify as standouts!

and god those singles!! when the album first came out i was only slightly engaged with pop culture, never bought music + seldom bothered to find out who actually did the songs i liked -- it wouldn't be until after the album had already scooped up its abundance of year-end industry awards that i became a true pop music obsessive young'n. i loved "doo wop" even tho i didn't know who was responsible for it and probably didn't even know its actual title. and i still remember the exact room i was in + bed i was sitting on when i first heard "ex-factor" because almost immediately i was so struck by just how gorgeous the production was, the birds chirping and the rays of sunshine cutting through like a moment of devastating clarity -- i genuinely thought it was one of the most beautiful things i'd ever heard, and that was before the vocals had even come in!! "everything is everything" is probably the weakest of the bunch but was still fucking cool, and seeing that video may have been the first time i actually saw and knew of her.

i think it's easy in retrospect to look back at something like the title cut or the one that colbie caillat covered and see nothing but trite platitudes of unconditional self-love in the face of adversity, perseverance and other character words of the month delivered by an a&r exec's idea of a role model to the youth, but those words did indeed mean a lot to me as a kid + teenager and i don't care how inauthentically i happened across those feelings. the album is gorgeous and genuinely cathartic at its best, and even at its more unremarkable moments is still fine

like yes those rolling stone lists are cringe-inducing but stop, this album being on it, even as high as it is, is not one of the reasons

thanks for the word, dyl. really articulated well; grateful for your time. very much enjoyed reading.

i was very cynical when it came out. i hated most new music (yes, even then). no issues admitting when i'm wrong, but i think i just heard it from the completely wrong perspective - and that's stuck with me because it was a very stinging disappointment. i listened to it a lot to try and understand what i was missing, so i have to say i was being facetious when i said that none of it was memorable; some songs were and i was a dj trying to develop a reputation (my "forgive them father/concrete jungle" mashup was a crowd pleaser). so i still very much remember several of the songs - but not because i liked them.

i was immersed in catalogue music (mostly hiphop and r+b), so all new pop music sounded bad to me. dissonant and just technically sounded mixed all wrong. so it sounded like an attempt to apply "classic" (i.e., "the 70s man") ethos to contemporary music. to me the music lacked any sonic dynamics and the substance of the lyrics was perfectly served by the "70s man" vibe in that they were like a wanky blues rock guitar solo: technically "good", but not everybody wants to hear it, and haven't i heard this somewhere before??? she's a really good singer who wrote better than average lyrics, but it all amounted to fluff.

(then i reassessed her previous work and realized that: yeah, she's been overrated from the start in that regard.)

she lost me for good after winning the grammys. i mean good for her, but just confirmed that it wasn't really my thing. then the mtv unplugged thing happened. i thought it was a weird move for sure, but i certainly had no idea of what she was going through at the time. i'm really happy she's still around.

i still think it's a very mediocre album. seeing it on the rolling stone list was just a reminder.

thanks again. i always read your posts and i'm honored that such a fine one was partially in response to me.

every song on this album rules

― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Saturday, June 11, 2022 6:58 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

"miseducation overrated" is a corny opinion imo

― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Saturday, June 11, 2022 6:59 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Every song.

― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, June 11, 2022 7:07 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

THIS

I'm not following you. So you listened to "catalog" hip-hop/R&B in 1998 but are knocking Miseducation for applying what you liked?

And I don't hear the "1970s" in the album at all: whatever else, it's fresh and of its moment. Carlos Santana sounds like he adjusted to Hill, not the other way around.

i'm sure ol' carlos was willing to adjust to any paycheck.

(sorry for the snark, but in my book a carlos santana guest appearance is a demerit on any album)

and i'm sorry i reread my post and it wasn't clear what i meant. it sounded to me like they were shooting for "organic, retro" songs but applied all the modern production techniques to it — so it sounded just like all the other music on the radio (that also sounded bad to me) but the songs were so second tier*. i didn't want new music that was poorly emulating old music.

keep in mind: i was a super snob. don't know what else what to say; i just was. shrug.

but even within a few years, i loosened up and was able to appreciate its contemporaries. it was up against truly different and completely non-pretentious fluff like aaliyah, tlc, etc. and i still find that music to be timeless. miseducation otoh still mostly sounds like a flat tire. nothing more than a very highly crafted flop; too many cooks in the kitchen, too much syrup on the pancakes, etc. i've brought this up before and it seems relevant here: if such a thing as "so bad it's good" exists, surely the inverse can also be true.

*AND NO FUN. good lord, how preachy and buzzkill-y is this album???? when aquemini came out some weeks later, it felt like "yeah, this is what lauryn hill was trying for."

it felt like "yeah, this is what lauryn hill was trying for."

Miseducation feels pretty strongly in Lauryn's voice, no matter whether or not she actually wrote its songs - like, it feels like whatever she was trying for, and I don't really get your comment. And I don't understand how it can be a "very highly crafted flop" when it was actually a hit? It's such an effortlessly enjoyable record. Fucking X-Factor! Doo Wop! Every Ghetto Every City!!! I remember seeing her at Wembley on that tour and she was sublime (and she's been bizarre to rotten almost every time I've seen her since).

feel like the politics of Doo Wop have not aged well (if they were well received at the time)

I don't think most batted an eyelash back then. Many '90s conscious songs were respectability politics lectures.

Blast "Doo Wop" after A Tribe Called Quest's "Butter."

This album is obviously great, but it's objectively wrong to call it one of the 10 greatest hip-hop albums of all time when it's like half a rap album

Maybe it registers as a rap album to some people because it has so many terrible skits

If the singing were shittier it would be a proper rap album

hard to argue with tbh

OK, raise your hand if you think this is the greatest album of all-time. Anybody?

The Misdesignation of Lauryn Hill

For me, one of the greatest songs of all time (the obvious one), and that's enough.

The Score is better

it's funny how POLLing change a situation

the whole apple music list felt very grammy awards-coded and putting this at #1 seals it

It's a great album, and she was a fantastic live performer around the time of its release. That she's never truly followed it up, and that every live performance of hers I've seen over the last decade has juggled brilliance and disaster, is fairly dispiriting.

It was Pitchfork’s number 2 of the 90’s so I expected Top 10 at least. This list felt very much like a mish mash of the top half of those recent Pitchfork 80s/90s album lists.

No Depeche, New Order or Pet Shop Boys in the Apple list!

could it be that it was all so simple then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg2mF0gKtYw

ums otm

For me, one of the greatest songs of all time (the obvious one)

Lost Ones?

"Doo Wop (That Thing)"--I guess not that obvious going by this poll. (Didn't know about the Apple poll that triggered all this.)

First time hearing this album and it’s pretty good (maybe not as good 25 years later but it’s still really well crafted)

I know she sort of went off the rails and has kept releasing music sporadically… anything worth seeking out?

I really liked Unplugged. And the song Lose Myself, off the Surf's Up soundtrack (iirc), is genuinely fantastic

First time hearing this album

Wow! Jealous, but also you missed listening to this album for 25 years, so you should perhaps be jealous of me

I’ve heard the Unplugged album is pretty divisive. Maybe it was more divisive at its time of release coming after all the hype surrounding her and listening to it now with fresh ears it’s a better way to approaching it. Will take some time later in the week to digest it.

At the moment I’m going to dig in this album. I feel stupid ignoring this album for so long. It’s perfectly executed.

Bonus tracks are good too. “Tell Him” was a highlight.

moka-
search: "the sweetest thing" from the love jones ost
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y12YXVAYKjE

Miseducation is a fantastic album and like so many records from the late 90s the skits between tracks DRAG AND DRAG AND DRAG AND DRAG

I’ve tried with this album but apart from Forgive Them Father and Nothing Even Matters none of the songs make an impression on me. So I guess could be a great EP.

speaking of, unrelated: one of the most confusing things ever in the liner notes is david axelrod's "tony poem" receiving a sample credit on "every ghetto every city" (one of the better tracks on here, tbh). there's no sample of "tony poem" in that song and i don't think i've ever seen an explanation of how/why that happened. it says the song "contains replayed elements of" tony poem on newer pressings, but uhh? not really? the beat does kind of sound like the breakdown in "tony poem" but that was such an obscure record at the time, i don't think they needed to worry about getting sued. the confusion was compounded when she got in trouble for not giving the musicians on the album their proper credit. but sure, go ahead and list samples that aren't in there????

― I'm ANTIFA and I vote. (Austin), Saturday, June 11, 2022 12:46 PM

semiupdate on this: lol whosampled removed it from their listing completely. i _still_ cannot find any info on why it was listed in the og credits. weird.