Best Prog Revival Genre

math rock

I have never heard this term Pronk but I like it.

I have had this hypothesis that King Crimson's "Discipline" invented math rock.

I never heard of Pronk or neo-RIO. Not sure where Mars Volta or Porcupine Tree would fit, either (and shouldn't there be a choice for "jam-prog," like say Umphrey's McGee?), but I'm going to go with the Opeth/Ulver one anyway. (Kinda hate math rock.)

Brutal Prog (seeing Luttenbachers cover "Der Futura" in a basement sealed the deal).

Also maybe could be a "neo-fusion" choice (say, Vernon Reid's '00s stuff, though there's probably lots of examples I don't know about.)

And maybe a choice for whatever Satriani/Malmsteen/etc (and guitarists they've inspired) are, too.

this thread makes me fucking furious

but i shall stay my tongue because i'm unbalanced enough as it is

http://www.malleys.com/Content/images/productImages/pronk-new-wball-box.jpg

Anyway, indie prog.

Extreme prog, because I assume it includes Dillinger Escape Plan, Meshuggah and Cryptopsy, et al.

also there's continental european harmelodic jazz-metal prog (zu, panzerballet.)

(probably some new age prog out there, too, though don't ask me what it is.)

Ha, I <3 3 and 5-7 (and like enough 8). I think most of my favourite contemporary rock bands would probably fit in one of these categories. xhuxk has a point though about Mars Volta and Porcupine Tree. (Tool?) I might like "pronk" but I've never heard the Cardiacs AFAIK.

I'm tempted to vote indie prog cause I like those two bands so much but it somehow seems like the least, um, progressive of the styles I like.

Well, that description just convinced to look up Zu and Panzerballet!

Math-rock.

Porcupine Tree are somewhere between indie-prog and neo-prog, proga ... er, probably. Mars Volta arguably belong in "STFU prog", although I need to go back and have another go at them -- I think my tastes have evolved since I ran, screaming, from that first album.

The term "prog revival" makes me sick to the stomach, and should only be used in conjunction with Spock's Beard or Ozric Tentacles or Frost or bands CONSCIOUSLY making "revivalist prog". Very few of these bands are doing anything except trying to make original, challenging, new music. "prog revival" is pernicious, and misleading.

Also, lumping Ulver and Opeth together is FUCKING IDIOCY

Border between extreme prog and brutal prog makes for the best live shows - some of the best in any rock genre. Especially in small spaces with crazy peoples.

Indie prog and the softer side of extreme prog make for the best records.

Math rock kinda splits the difference.

xp neo-space-metal too (kosmos, litmus, oresund space collective.)

And Transubstans Records out of Sweden has lots of excellent bands that fit somewhere in this, too, but I'm not sure where (neo-psych-prog, maybe?):

http://www.myspace.com/transubstans

Cardiacs never identified with Prog, or "Pronk". They're a psychedelic pop band if anything. Their frontman, Tim Smith, fervently denies any "prog" connotations. "Pronk" is a handy invention made by folks who wanna put everything in a bucket.

Mew are a pop group whose songs sometimes flow pleasingly into each other and have knotty structures.

Shit, these definitions if you wanna extend them have such overlap, they're so restrictive

Radiohead = indie + prog

indie

prog

indie-prog

waddabout jock zeuhl (ruins), minimal prog (circle)

where is the "prog" let alone "prog revival" in radiohead? oh wait they did that one song paranoid android that had a few sections

maybe they're just a really good, ambitious rock band who compose music in a complicated but thoroughly comprehensible manner?

oh yeah you forgot ZEUHL lol. actually that sorta IS a prog revival genre. KOENJIIIIII

Like I said, the categories are off the top of my head. As for grouping Ulver and Opeth together, I originally was going to have separate deathprog and blackened prog choices, but then realized that there's way too much overlap -- and yes, while grouping all the "extreme prog" bands together often doesn't make sense in terms of style, it could be argued that they're coming from the same starting point (extreme metal) and therefore often share a similar sensibility.

A lot of the "indie prog" stuff (Radiohead for example) fit more into the Floydian axis of prog (bombastic ideas, conceptual unity, arena-friendly artiness, etc.). Whether that stuff is prog rock proper is debatable, but of course genre distinctions are always arbitrary, which is the problem with polls like these. (I'm surprised no one complained about my exclusion of kraut-influenced stuff like post-rock.)

Most neo-zeuhl would be included in brutal prog (the harder stuff) or neo-RIO (the more chambery stuff). Stuff like Circle would be too krauty to fit the definition of prog I'm using.

it's all so complicated

ulver are more wacked-out electronic rock than anything else these days

sorry dude i'm not having a good day, i mean i'm tryina tear a new asshole out of a poll that's practically giving me a Cardiacs vote

louis, classification is a tool that can help people describe & discuss things

so tempted to use strikethru on that post but then i'm rarely of much help am i

proceed with thread, everyone, it's getting ppl talking about good music

i am deciding that sleepytime gorilla museum is extreme prog. am i wrong?

because they could be brutal prog maybe?

louis, classification is a tool that can help people describe & discuss things

you mean like that

precisely, altho didn't think of second strike

louis, classification is a tool that can help people describe & discuss things

louis, classification is a tool that can help people describe & discuss things

I would say SGM aren't really extreme prog because they're not really coming from a death/black metal POV. I probably chould have included a "Circus Prog" option to cover bands like them and Mr. Bungle. Actually, if we're going to expand "Pronk" to cover someone other than the Cardiacs, I guess it would pretty much cover these guys too.

Indie prog is somewhat better, but Neo-prog is really the only prog revival genre. The rest all did something else. But voted indie prog anyway, because those bands did something great on their own, while Marillion in particular never managed to be quite more than Genesis B (not that Genesis B aren't great enough to enjoy listening to, but still...)

Not sure where Mars Volta or Porcupine Tree would fit, either

Sitting somewhere in-between prog metal and neo-prog, without quite being either, maybe?

^^^actually a really sensible, OTM post from Geir, respect

xpost

I agree about the options not being exactly perfect, though. I kind of wish someone like dleone who has a better grasp of all this stuff would have started a poll like this. What I really wanted to do was spark a discussion about the various ways different aspects of the prog legacy have been taken up and developed in very different directions, and the relative merits of each approach.

neo-Santana

The second one's pretty bang-on as well.

And it's Cardiacs, not "the or The Cardiacs" :-P

the relative merits of each approach.

― i fuck mathematics

You mean who likes what, hates what, and how much the poll options suck? We can do that just fine here.

I don't care for any of this apart from Don Caballero. I liked American Don a bunch for quite a while...has anyone heard the album they released last year?

It's called Punkgasm, so no

You mean who likes what, hates what, and how much the poll options suck? We can do that just fine here.

True. Which means (hopefully) this thread will fulfill its purpose.

And it's Cardiacs, not "the or The Cardiacs" :-P

Whoops. My mistake. At least I got their name right on the poll itself.

(It's kind of weird not to use the definite article with bands like this though, even when you know better. I still catch myself doing this with e.g. Boredoms. Though strangely enough, I would never, ever think to call Tatsuya Yoshida's old band "The Ruins".)

I want to start a band called The or The Cardiacs.

Its in terrible taste, I agree, therefore a no which transforms to yes! in prog rock land. xxp

has anyone heard the album they released last year?

Yes. It was OK, but sorta forgettable.

I liked it

I didn't dislike it, I know that much. But I didn't go back to it, either. Maybe I shall, tomorrow.

Pro Tip:

if you like don caballero don't ever try to hear any stories about damon che from people that know him

So I guess Pronk is one of those categories like Zeuhl that consists of a band (in this case Cardiacs) plus some other bands that have ripped them off.

Anyway, I don't know what to vote for.

Neo-Prog - shite, apart from early IQ. Does it include Spocks Beard, Flower Kings et al? Ugh.
Prog-Powermetal - Manowar without the hooks
Extreme Prog - goth metal by any other name
Pronk - a little Cardiacs goes a long way in my book
Brutal Prog - gets a bit aspie
Indie Prog - no
Neo-RIO - misses the originality of Henry Cow etc and can be a bit dry
Math Rock - only if we can count Voivod

I think I have to admit that I only really like pre-punk prog. Fuck it, I'll go for Neo-RIO.

I quite liked Punkgasm but haven't heard any of their other albums since the first two. Other recent ones are worth it, then?

So I guess Pronk is one of those categories like Zeuhl that consists of a band (in this case Cardiacs) plus some other bands that have ripped them off.

I don't think that would work, as I can't think of any bands that have directly ripped off Cardiacs. Perhaps it's just better to interpret "Pronk" to mean circus-proggy stuff like Mr. Bungle, a lot of which does have clear Cardiacs influences.

I can't think of any bands that have directly ripped off Cardiacs

The Monsoon Bassoon
Loadsa UK bands no-one ever heard of

Oh, and Blur

Who aren't Pronk I guess

I have probably heard of them.

I have probably heard of them.

Sleepy People
Experiment
Poisoned Electrick Head
Everyone who was in The Organ fanzine

actually now that i actually pay attention to the list SGM would prob be best placed in the Neo-RIO camp.

actually now that i actually pay attention to the list i dont like the list

Two current UK bands whose members have posted to Cardiacs' webforum with peals of adulation (and, yes, show an occasional influence): Silvery, a.P.A.t.T.

Like I said, I'm not really knowledgeable enough on all the different strands of nu-prog to create a more coherent classification scheme for all these bands. (I'm more into the avant stuff and old-school prog.) I'm genuinely curious to know what a better way of organizing the different styles would be, though.

Sweaty Prog - Lightning Bolt
Unsweaty Prog - Radiohead

everything else is points in between

The Monsoon Bassoon are/were totally fkn dope btw

once again, there are these..

What is Progressive Rock ? - progarchives
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp

SUB-GENRES

* Canterbury Scene
* Crossover Prog
* Eclectic Prog
* Experimental/Post Metal
* Heavy Prog
* Indo-Prog/Raga Rock
* Italian Symphonic Prog
* Jazz Rock/Fusion
* Krautrock
* Neo-Progressive
* Post Rock/Math rock
* Prog Folk
* Prog Related
* Progressive Electronic
* Progressive Metal
* Proto-Prog
* Psychedelic/Space Rock
* RIO/Avant-Prog
* Symphonic Prog
* Tech/Extreme Prog Metal
* Various Genres
* Zeuhl

A Guide to the Progressive Rock Genres
http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html

I'm sure I did a poll of those genres once. WTF is Eclectic Prog?

I was thinking of using the progarchives categories, but they're more focused on prog-rock as a whole, rather than post-punk re-appropriations of prog tropes.

Ah right, KC, VDGG and GG.

xpost

this...

Eclectic Prog

The term 'eclectic' in the context of progressive rock describes a summation of elements from various musical sources, and the influences and career paths of bands that take from a wide range of genres or styles. While progressive music can be, in a larger sense, eclectic, the 'Eclectic Prog' term is specially meant to reference bands that trespass the boundaries of established Progressive Rock genres or that blend many influences.

Eclectic Prog combines hybrids of style and diversity of theme, promoting many elements from different sources. The Eclectic category recognizes bands that evolved markedly over their career (in a progressive, evolutionary way), or have a plural style without a clear referential core.

The basic features lie within the music's variety, rich influences, art tendencies and classic prog rock elements. Among the representative bands are KING CRIMSON, VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR, and GENTLE GIANT.

- written by Ricochet (Victor)

(BTW, I'm using "post-punk" here in a temporal sense rather than a stylistic sense obviously. The point is that, even slavishly imitative neo-prog bands are fundamentally different than Yes or Crim in that their status as "prog" is a result of conscious appropriation/incorporation of a certain (dead) style.)

xpost

Voted BRUTAL PROG cos it's the lil guy that will never get repped on ILM when everyone is posting about Animal Collective, MIA, Big & Rich, The Vines etc

this happens to most experimental or interesting music tbh

lj at some point i will listen to cardiacs, and it will be due to your determined support of them, just so you know.

:D

if you dig music as open-minded as Ulver or Foetus you're sure to like 'em! (i hope)

Where would bands like Youthmovies or Late Of The Pier of Fiery Furnaces fit into all this, I wonder...

(answer: they wouldn't, really, unless you stretched "indie-prog" to greater definitory grasp than "music which sounds like x")

Late Of The Pier of Fiery Furnaces

o look i just invented the most 'annoying' band ever :D

I'm going to go with brutal prog, too, actually. (Haven't voted till now.)

Where would Bill Brovold/Larval fit into all this, I wonder?

Of those three bands Fiery Furnaces are the only ones that seem to share any real aesthetic with 'prog' as she is most rigidly defined (ie a pre-punk genre), even if most of their songs are pretty short and chirpy

I was being sarky/self-deprecating in my post before in case anyone was wondering, I'm not labouring under the impression ILM would vastly benefit from sprawling earnest discussions about Orthrelm

Voted "neo-prog" as even though a lot of it's shit, I dig IQ and 12th Night loads. Flower Kings and Spokcs Beard probably belong in some genre all of their own "Oasis Prog" or suchlike.

Well, abstract experimental music tends to be impossible to write about anyway, because you can't fall back on things like social context and obvious sonic references and signifiers, which, after all, are what most pop music writing is really about. I really wish there were some developed discourse addressing sounds as sounds in pop music, similar to Schenkerian analysis in classical music.

xpost

Neo-Prog - shite, apart from early IQ. Does it include Spocks Beard, Flower Kings et al? Ugh.

That is when it started to become good. And IQ had also improved when compared to earlier. The only neo prog band that were better in the 80s is Marillion.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Indie Prog still rules. pre "Kid A" Radiohead, Muse, Mew. All great!

Extreme Prog - goth metal by any other name

your ears are broken

sorry, its been a long day. i just bristle at the tendency for people to lump SGM in with that whole estradasphere wacky circus vibe, it sells them short.

MICROPROG.

But that would probably go either under mathsrock or indie-prog.

i just bristle at the tendency for people to lump SGM in with that whole estradasphere wacky circus vibe, it sells them short.

the "wacky circus vibe" was more applicable to Idiot Flesh. There's some of it in SGM, but not as much. Maybe we can disagree on the definition of "goth metal" (I've only heard their first album and a couple other songs), but I stand by the theater nerd comment. Not meant too pejoratively. They're nice people.

there's also a modern vs. post-modern schism going on too ... not sure if that's the best way of describing it, but, there are the bands whose songs are almost like pastiche of references. I go back and forth about whether I like that or not.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

WD Don Cab, Battles, Chavez, Drive Like Jehu, Slint, and all others of their ilk, for successfully reviving the spirit of '72 better than anyone else :)