Best Madonna song? But why?

My girlfriend and I got into a playful drunken back-and-forth about Madonna last night, and I talked to a couple friends today, so I thought I'd throw this open to the ILX hive mind.

It started out because I made kind of an offhand remark about thinking that "Into The Groove" is the "best" Madonna song, because it had everything that I like about Madonna (great hook, playful vocals, vaguely double-entendre lyrics). She started talking about how her "favorite" Madonna song is one she had on a cassette as a girl, La Isla Bonita, because of the memories, etc. but the "best" one is really "Vogue," because that's what cemented her reputation as a serious artist in a path of history, etc.

So, I'm not actually all that interested in what songs you consider "best" from Madonna, but rather the reasoning that led up to declaring it best, and what assumptions have to be made about the values there. (I realize this is a bit of a crit-lit wank, and I'm also holding back the crucial wager portion from my girlfriend and my discussion, as I don't want to influence the results).

Is "best" valid at all? Is it different than "favorite"? What kind of criteria are valid for a "best" Madonna song?

"best" in this sense is sort of "more important", isn't it? however you want to conceptualise "important", though it would probably combine critical rep, commercial success, position wrt the rest of the artist's discography. madonna probably has two contenders here - 'like a prayer' (most ambitious, and surely this is the one that cemented her critical rep?) and 'into the groove' (which seems to sum her up best in some way, or at least sum up what the entire madonna phenomenon was about?). i was gonna put 'vogue' in there, then realised i had no idea why i instinctively thought of it as "important".

but anyway, "important" isn't as, uh, important as "favourite" (which is "best to you") so my answer is 'deeper and deeper' 4eva, though obv w/an artist like madonna, the actual answer can change hourly.

Context without you = best
Context with you = favorite

Some people place too much weight on one or the other

""best" in this sense is sort of "more important", isn't it? however you want to conceptualise "important", though it would probably combine critical rep, commercial success, position wrt the rest of the artist's discography.

Yeah, but considering critical rep/consensus seems to be tying back to other people's opinions in a way that I'm not sure that is supportable within "best," but likewise charts and sales seem pretty dry, and need their own contextualization.

But yeah, it's exactly that sort of calculus that I wanted to kind of survey on ILX. Is Madonna's chart success important for "best" because chart success is inherently a good measurement, or is it because it's a good measurement for Madonna?

God, sorry, I'll back out of this again so that my girlfriend doesn't yell at me for trying to sway people one way or another.

When reading this, it feels over my head.

When reliving her singles on the charts, it feels simple.

1982-1984 was a time when Hip-Hop met New Wave. Madonna was there in the center of it. At the tail end of it, street culture was shown via Breakdancing movies. Where those failed, the Get Into the Groove video succeeded.

By 1985, the Hip-Hop thing was kinda in dire straits for a moment (since the Breakin movies didn't ROI as expected). Then by 1986, Def Jam signed their Columbia deal bringing Hip-Hop back in a new form, there were plenty of New Wave/Synth Pop chart success, yet, Madonna released the poppy True Blue. It seemed designed for the Debbie Gibson market.

After House music went to the UK, Italy, Belgium, et al, and returned stateside by 1989/1990 as a bigger commodity than Trax/DJ International Records could ever have done, Madonna teamed up with Shep Pettibone. Put her back in the thick of it.

(and yeah, I know...Debbie Gibson wasn't charting in 1986, so replace her name with Bananarama or Stacey Q or some equivalent)

the "best/favourite" dichotomy is slightly b.s., in that it imagines that any of us lowly humans could ever carry around within us any context which excludes the subjective...hell, you can't even really say that the sum of all subjective answers could do anything except approximate objectivity...(which doesn't mean that tabulating subjective opinions is not a worthy endeavor, ie we <3 you musically)

that being said,
favourite = Cherish
best = strong cases could be made for Into the Groove or Dress You Up, but I'm gonna go with Like a Virgin...

yeah, but the "had to be there" vs. "stfu" is a v v real dichotomy

and after years of good press, public retrospective opinion can sway

crtl+f "lucky star"

waht

"Like A Virgin", "Like A Prayer", and "Hung Up" are the best.

Oh, and "Beautiful Stranger".

oooh frgot abt lucky star...

"Live to Tell" and "Bad Girl" are perhaps her best, because out of the ones she's written they most vividly demonstrate that she might have indeed, at one point, had something close to resembling a human soul

"Don't Tell Me" . As Madonna was no longer in contention as number one pop act in the world, this particular single stakes her claim to be most important pop act in the world. Combining her most physically attractive phase with what at first listen seem to be cutting edge beats and a non-dance/pop songwriting collaborator, "Don't Tell Me" made it possible to develop a relationship with Madonna in both a non-ironic and a pre-ironic fashion while simultaneously meeting the needs of her established markets.

"Papa Don't Preach" is the best Madonna song because the video was like a movie and got played all the time. The story in the song moved her sexuality issues from theoretical fantasy to realistic neighborhood dilemmas sure to raise controversy in the families of her young Catholic fans.

I guess the assumptions that can be made here are that I am something of a shallow critic who doesn't really know his stuff (I want to put a dancing banana here)

"Vogue" gets the "important" nod because it's probably the first single she put out that sounded more like a dance track than a pop song you could dance to (admittedly this is coming from the biased position of thinking dance tracks distinct from pop songs on the radio debuted circa "Pump Up The Volume").

"Live to Tell" and "Bad Girl" are perhaps her best, because out of the ones she's written they most vividly demonstrate that she might have indeed, at one point, had something close to resembling a human soul

Are you serious?! I was hearing lust, euphoria, and heartbreak as early as "Burning Up." She was a consistently underrated vocalist, and a large part of what makes those pre-1994 singles so timeless is how shrewdly she weighs how much lust, euphoria, and heartbreak a song can take.

>Are you serious?

haha what do you think...but i DO believe there's still something *really* special about "Live to Tell." No not just because it's the first time she's singing in her lower register, but when you hear her tremulous singing, it is overwhelmed with palpable, naked emotion and FEAR from her in a way she's been very reluctant to do before or after. For a woman who prides herself on rarely showing any vulnerability, it's something. She also sounds notes of resignation, defeat, and a paradoxical sort of "innocent cynicism" that only a young person could voice, with the "a man can tell a thousand lies, i learned my lesson well" line - all things that we don't associate with the all-conquering bitch persona. plus, i always imagine she is singing it about Sean, and as she just got married, it seems to hold a clue into the abusive aspect of their relationship. Of course that is probably my own projection, but s she's said before half the ballads in her catalog are all about Sean..so it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that.

My take on early Madonna

oh excellent write up ^^ so otm: " Despite many later triumphs, this set of lyrics remain her best, matched by co-writer Patrick Leonard's sophisticated chord changes (relisten to the "If I ran away, I wouldn't have the strength to go very far" bit) and a vocal that seethes with a lifetime's worth of hurts which she nevertheless refuses to share. </i?

and here's the proof that it's excellent:
[i]
Posted 10/26/2007 - 12:44:42 PM by JuanLars:
Alfred, I really do wonder: have you ever heard of such a thing as a gay man? Because this whole writeup seems as if you've never encountered such a thing. I mean "boys don't sing Madonna" - hullo?

heh heh, i remember reading that post on Alfred's blog back when.

Do the criteria for arguing "best" vary from artist to artist?

Apparently I'm not gay enough even when I'm writing about Madonna.

I was just looking up the definition of the word "best" and I think it is just too broad a word. "best def"

I ended up looking at the track listing for Best of Def Leppard "Bringing on the Heartbreak" is my favorite Def Leppard song, but I can only call it "the best" if I'm purposefully ignoring collective critical assessments in favor of my own personal taste. If I reject the idea that "Mutt" Lange's production got better as it got farther away from traditional rock band style (and I do). Def Leppard had 4 albums in a row that have been and could be called their "best" and all for different and similar reasons.

The Japanese version of Best of Def Leppard has "Waterloo Sunset" which could be the best song Def Leppard ever did, but is also probably the worst song Def Leppard ever did.

I don't know if there is going to be any bet winning when it comes to Madonna.

I ended up looking at the track listing for Best of Def Leppard "Bringing on the Heartbreak" is my favorite Def Leppard song, but I can only call it "the best" if I'm purposefully ignoring collective critical assessments in favor of my own personal taste.

Do it! Do it!

"Don't Tell Me" is cutting-edge? Whatever.

I would say best, as in most likely to survive and become part of history, is the stuff that goes down well with the critics and the people. Which is most of Madonna's 80s work anyway.

"Don't Tell Me" is cutting-edge? Whatever.

what at first listen seem to be cutting edge beats

rolls eyes.

I invented two bad song reviews to attempt to get to the bottom of the Madonna best song dilemma.

Jesus.

as if.

I'm not sure why I'm even debating this with you because I totally don't care.

You see, in an attempt to expand her profitability she introduced this year's model of what would get me to listen to her newest music, but was it art or commerce?

OR BOTH ! and was it best? and why?

It was a long time ago.

Can we just drop it?

good thread question -- i've wondered why ilx voted Into the groove best for a while. it's a result that's stuck with me. ever since that poll i've listened to the song in a different way.

but it still confuses me as a candidate for "best" cuz when i think through the question of "best madonna song," my reasoning DOES take other things into account, such as madonna's vocal performance, and the emotional resonance of the overall song.

of course, the biggest factor is still: what simply sounds the best. and obv the answer is Borderline :) (but i was in the vogue camp for yeaaaaars).

i think the reasoning that led me to this decision is firmly rooted in the idea of style. i love the style of production and performance in Borderline, and on the self-titled debut album as a whole.

"[i]I would say best, as in most likely to survive and become part of history, is the stuff that goes down well with the critics and the people. Which is most of Madonna's 80s work anyway.[i]"

Are those the criteria with which you regard Madonna, or are those your criteria with all musicians?

There is, at this point, a lot of Madonna that did well with the people and the critics (either contemporarily or on the rehab). Does that mean that all of the songs are ultimately "best"?

When you think of a "best" Madonna song, do you think of the song first or the criteria?

i find it a welcome take to evaluate madonna as part of musical history, separate and distinct from cultural history, but that isn't my criteria for her best material.

(i know you weren't asking me i'm just sayin)

Are those the criteria with which you regard Madonna, or are those your criteria with all musicians?

I would say with all. With some exceptions (Velvets, Nick Drake, Big Star - but also ABBA, Fleetwood Mac) the stuff that really survives and becomes part of the "canon" has usually received good reviews and at the same time sold in bucketloads.

Anyway, I guess the stuff on "Like a Prayer" goes a bit deeper than the rest, because it, well, because it touches other musical factors than the limitations of her usual stuff. Songs like "Like a Prayer" and "Oh Father".

"Into The Groove" = VAGUELY double-entendre lyrics?!?!?!?

Where is teh love for Borderline

"Borderline" is awesome but "Into The Groove" really does have a piece of every single thing that makes Madonna awesome (hyper-aware sexiness, upbeat danciness, one of her best vocals, tie-in to another form of media, overall slamminitude)

What he said. It was a perfect song for summer '85.

and it was the B-side to "Angel," another slab of awesomeness.