Gram Parsons v Gene Clark in an Ex-Byrd Roots Rock Smackdown!!!

do people really think of clark as obscure?? he was in the byrds for their incredibly amazing & popular & influential early LPs! and his solo career is great. i am voting gene.

i also think we might have done this before??

damn...tough

whereas imho parsons' peak was 'the gilded palace of sin' and his solo records are good ('GP') to mediocre ('grievous angel'). "Safe at Home" is also a grrrreat LP, but even considering that, i just don't see this as being close.

Maybe a few years back, ILM favorite GC was the obscure one, but not anymore.

damn u had to do this didn't you. going to have to ruminate a bit. I posted this on another Byrds thread a while back:

love The Byrds! In fact, I just listened to The Notorious Byrd Brothers yesterday. I'll have to think about this very difficult task and repost at a later date. I was thinking about this too: Is there another band out there that has served as a revolving door for as many distinct talents, at varous points in time, as The Byrds? Can, perhaps. Or The Yardbirds. I'm sure there are others. I just can't think of any offhand. Menudo? The Revolting Cocks? From Gene Clark to Gram Parsons in less than five years. Now that is a goddam career!

― Cat-Wrangler (Pillbox), Monday, December 15, 2008 1:56 AM (1 month ago) Bookmark

Are we including their contributions to the Byrds?

I meant obscure to normal people, not ILM music geeks....and yes, you can vote on Byrds output too. Who is better overall?

Is there another band out there that has served as a revolving door for as many distinct talents, at varous points in time, as The Byrds?

(excluding jazz bands??)

yeah, that would have to be a pretty big exception, huh? I was thinking more along the lines of rock & pop I guess.

yeah it's hard but i think ian's right, the early byrds records are so great and i think really had the most impact of any of the stuff....plus gene + godsin bros. is one of my favs...

but love gram too.

"Is there another band out there that has served as a revolving door for as many distinct talents, at varous points in time, as The Byrds?"

The JBs

The Fall

If we are including the 1st two Byrds (and "Eight Miles High") it's definitely gotta be Clark. I think non-Byrds it's pretty much a wash.

"Is there another band out there that has served as a revolving door for as many distinct talents, at varous points in time, as The Byrds?"

the live thing they released last year really put clarence white in a whole new perspective for me, wow, what a player.

The Fall

― Mark G, Friday, February 6, 2009 5:37 PM (2 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

eh i dunno, has anyone from the fall been really great w/o MES?

"The Fall"

Yeah your grandma's bongo record is great.

Maybe Buffalo Springfield. Or The Velvet Underground.

the small faces/the faces?

That's really only one switch (the vocalist) isn't it?

if the VU is a candidate, then why not the Stones for a revolving door of talent.

I voted Gram, based just on post-Byrds output ("ex-byrd smackdown", but whatever). For me it's a choice of the metaphysical (Gene Clark) versus the earthy (Gram, despite the "cosmic" angle), and I went with the earthy. Including Byrds output, then Clark no question for me.

really neck and neck for me. i suspend my vote.

i just don't see this as being close
AGREED. Clark completely outclasses Parsons. Byrds, solo, collabs, everything.

IMO the Velvets don't qualify b/c, after Cale left, it simply became Lou's group. While I love the albums on which Doug Yule performs, I don't necessarily like them b/c of Doug. In fact, I often find myself annoyed that Lou isn't singing all of the songs on Loaded (though I do quite like his vocal on "Candy Says").

er, Doug's vocal, that is.

That's really only one switch (the vocalist) isn't it?

― Alex in SF, Friday, February 6, 2009 5:43 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ron wood though!

Fairport Convention had quite a few people pop in and out. Steeleye Span too. Maybe it's a folk-rock thing.

black sabbath?

was gonna vote clark but the people who think he runs away with this make me want to vote parsons

i predict a big "silent majority" thing on this thread

So I've been meaning to check out Gene Clark's solo records for a while now, & this is as good an excuse as any to do so. If I were to seek out one or two, which ones should they be?

Love 'em both, but I've gotta go with Parsons here. And I'd definitely argue that Parsons is by far the better known of the two these days -- Clark might've been in the original Byrds, but he's more of a cult thing in comparison. He doesn't have the Keith Richards connections, people like Norah Jones covering his songs, etc., like Parsons does.

Though at this point, yeah, Clarence White is my fave Byrd. The studio records with him might not be as awesome, but goddam, those live recordings are smoking.

If I were to seek out one or two, which ones should they be?
I would say start with White Light. First Dillard and Clark album is great, too. No Other is pretty awesome but more of a grower, imo.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EeUvfbXyL._SS500_.jpg

elevator operator brings the lulz

that live burritos joint put out by amoeba last year is good, but fuck them forever for calling it a gram parsons record

damn...tough

^^^^^^^^^ this

i wish the mcguinn/clark duo had recorded back in 77 or so, excellent material there going by the live boots. the mcguinn clark hillman records really don't cut it for the most part

GC.

I've never cared about Parsons.

Is there another band out there that has served as a revolving door for as many distinct talents, at varous points in time, as The Byrds?

P-Funk.

Zapp & Roger, Junie Morrison, Fred Wesley and Maceo, Bootsy, Eddie Hazel, Bernie Worrell, etc.

Ah yes, P-funk is the correct answer. hat's off, sir.

Is there another band out there that has served as a revolving door for as many distinct talents, at varous points in time, as The Byrds?

I know you said only rock and pop, but I'm cheating and mentioning the Blue Grass Boys.

I thought we were doing EX-Byrds, so I went with Parsons because I'm backlashing against the backlash.

Gene Clark is my favorite Byrd though.

Is there another band out there that has served as a revolving door for as many distinct talents, at varous points in time, as The Byrds? Fleetwood Mac

Arguably, Fairport Convention might fit there, too ... and the Jazz Messengers.

The P-Funkateers and JB Shout-Out Thread!

If we are including the 1st two Byrds (and "Eight Miles High") it's definitely gotta be Clark. I think non-Byrds it's pretty much a wash.

― Alex in SF, Friday, February 6, 2009 11:37 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^came in here to say this

white light > any album by the byrds

I never got parsons

Clark may not be "obscure" per se, but he is wholly overshadowed by Parsons, which is a travesty to my ears. while most of his crucial solo stuff is only available on import (White Light, Roadmaster, No Other, Two Sides, with the Dillard & Clark stuff just recently getting a domestic reissue) Parsons' meager output gets repackaged every few years or so. the cult surrounding Parsons has made me like his tunes less as the years go on.

shoulda included gene parsons in this poll

Shoulda included Alan Parsons, while we're at it.

and dave clark

Alan Clark.

http://www.harpmagazine.com/img/news/2006_04_10_gram_parsons.jpg
vs.
http://www.panorama.no/bilder/G/GeneClark5.jpg
who's dreamier?

They're both pretty ugly in those photos.

Dillard & Clark stuff just recently getting a domestic reissue"

What's this about? Is there something newer than this? (Which kind of sucks IMO.)

(Clarfication: I LOVE D&C. I just think that two-for-one disc is a poor-ass reissue.)

agree with Beta that Clark is completely overshadowed by Parsons, but I still choose GP. The fact is that neither of them are involved with my favorite Byrds album (Notorious, which GC is only briefly involved with, and is way more notable for being the best songs that Crosby/Hillman/McGuinn wrote together). Counting the first Flying Burrito Brothers album, plus his solo records, plus _Sweetheart_, plus Parsons' personality and his influence on almost everyone around him (responsible for discovering Emmylou Harris, for better or for worse; influencing the Stones in going country; mentoring The Modern Lovers), I'll take Parsons. If we were to go album-for-album, though, Clark might have the edge.

The video on YouTube of The Flying Burrito Brothers performing "Christie's Tune," just the way Parsons carries himself, pretty much seals the deal here.

mentoring The Modern Lovers

Something I don't know about. Please inform!

"mentoring" might be a strong word, but I think there was a Kim Fowley connnection between Gram and the Modern Lovers ... Jonathan Richman talks about it in one of the Parsons bio ... Definitely a funny pair to imagine hanging out together!

via Wikipedia: "Warner Brothers then engaged Kim Fowley to work with the band, but by this time Richman refused to perform some of his most popular earlier songs live. The band were also affected by the death during the sessions of their friend Gram Parsons; on the day before Parsons' death, he and Richman played miniature golf and discussed recording together ."
Har, even funnier to imagine them playing miniature golf together.

That's just awesome. He should've hung out with Richman more, maybe he could've helped him go "straight."

Yeah, there shoulda been a sitcom starring the two of them. Jonathan, the childlike straightedger and Gram, the lazy, rich country boy.

I'd watch it.

i'm kinda obsessed with gene's stuff in a way i never could be with parsons stuff. so i voted for gene. i also like burrito group stuff more than parsons solo.

My understanding was the Parsons via Fowley taught them really important lessons about industry politics, so that his "mentoring" was more from a business angle than a musical one. The significance is attached to the significance Parsons' influence had on just about every single person around him. While that's extremely vague, it also helps to explain a lot of why everyone who was making rock music in the early '70s seems to hail him as some sort of flammable visionary.

x-post

eh i dunno, has anyone from the fall been really great w/o MES?

I've got a soft spot for Marc Riley & the Creepers, but they certainly weren't "great." But the Blues Orchids, in their original incarnation (with Una Baines) - an LP, two EPs and two 7" 45s - certainly were. In fact, "The Greatest Hit (Money Mountain)" album is arguably better than any Fall albums. I'd argue that the Passage were pretty fine, too.

My vote's for Clark, who threw away more good stuff than Parsons ever wrote (and maybe someday, these abandoned projects will come to light.) Clark was certainly the better writer (Parsons didn't write as much, and many of his best tunes were co-writes, unlike Clark.) Parsons' voice might have been a little better than Clark's (I like both), but that's the only real advantage he has over Clark.

import (White Light, Roadmaster, No Other, Two Sides

Is Two Sides any good?

clark wins by a mile

If I were in the mood to listen to Parsons, I'd probably put on Merle Haggard instead, so Clark.

GENE CLARK

Lurktard vote will give this to Parsons but obv it's Gene Clark by a googol miles.

re: Mguinn/Clark/Hillman...

Backstage Pass if totally great. And it's the closest Gene ever came to beardo disco. Pilooski edit soon?

Chris Hillman on Gene vs. Gram (from his Rhapsody interview)

..."Gene was the guy. He was the songwriter. He had an output of songs -- and you're a songwriter. Gene, he would write seven, eight songs a week. Well, five of them were great. I mean, his percentage of successful ones that were really good songs was amazing. And he was not a well read man...I worked with Gene more than any other of the other Byrds, all through his career. I was always on some of his albums and knew him really well. He was a nutcase, but man was he brilliant. There was the idiot savant, the genius. [cut out some stuff] Graham, you know, he had moments...He really had talent, but it was so disjointed."

Gene Clark

And just to think of it, there's that goddam movie made about Parsons' life and death. But I really don't imagine, alas, that there'd ever be a movie made about Gene Clark. More's the pity...

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Reaction upon study of Gene's career: Man, this guy wrote some great songs!
Reaction upon study of Gram's career: Man, I should listen to more Everly and Louvin Brothers!

And more Exile On Main Street!

already decided i'm going for gene, but still haven't heard that mcguinn/clark/hillman record with the disco on it. it sounds awesome tho

I dunno. I love Gene Clark--his demos, especially the amazing "Los Angeles" (he calls it "city of the doom") are fine. Love the Gosdin Brothers record but it's basically a Byrds album, in concept.

And I love Clark's more well-known songs which have seeped into mainstream awareness via Tom Petty, seems to me; I think Clark helped define one aspect of the '60s as well as anyone. Somber, dislocated, country-boy-in-over-his-head, hopeless romantic.

Still, I think Parsons is Clark's equal as songwriter. Not sure if I think Clark ever quite topped the best Gram Parsons songs, which comprise "100 Years from Now" and "Big Mouth Blues" and, of course, "$1000 Wedding." Ironically perhaps for a rich person (rich by the standards of the '60s), Parsons seems to me to have had the common touch in a way that Clark didn't. No Other I love, in a way, but it's a mess. Parsons was more or less trying to do mainstream country a la Johnny Bush and George Jones and all, not singing it all that well. Clark was a better singer but as a record-maker...not all that impressive to me. Gram Parsons was as far ahead of the usual Nashville song shit as Roger Miller was out in front of Harlan Howard or one of those guys.

So I avoid the Parsons backlash. Yeah, they're flawed in some ways but damned if I can find anything wrong with the solo records and what can you say, Gilded Palace is as prescient and timeless (to these ears at least) as anything from the era. And I just don't think you can say that about Gene Clark, much as I love him. (Saw him play Nashville just once, and his version of "Hot Burrito #1" brought tears to me eyes.)

What if there's a backlash to the anti-Parsons backlash?
I think I fall in this category -- I think that they're pretty much equals, but I think Parsons wins out for writing (or co-writing, OK) a handful of songs that pretty much stand up in any list of great country songs. Forget the debatable/lamentable godfather of country rock/alt-country (ugh) status he's gotten over the years -- "$1000 Wedding", "Hickory Wind", "Brass Buttons", "Hot Burrito #1" -- a few more, they're undeniable.

har "I think" ... obviously. How many times do I have to write that.

That's OK, edd, 'cause you got caught in the Beatles backlash.

Well yeah, I mean Gene Clark could've been almost in the Beatles if they'd been auditioning for an American guy, but no way Gram could've cut it, you're absolutely right.

i'd rank "feel a whole lot better" "why not your baby" "in a misty morning" and a bunch of others with parsons' best, tho i do love gram's finest. i think gene's lyrics could be kinda obscure, esp. at his most dylanesque, but that's the only advantage parsons might have. i guess if you're only looking at this as a country music thing maybe gram wins but only because gene went beyond the boundaries of that genre so often.

"Why Not Your Baby" is an excellent song, good call.

Difficult for all the reasons listed above. What it comes down to for me is that a lot Gene's output just isn't that engaging to listen to. Well, except for his run while he was in the Byrds, that's some unimpeachable greatness. With much of the rest I have to force myself to pay attention. Gram keeps one involved with great tunes but also by varying the settings, tone and tempo much more than Gene does. So, Gram cuz I don't want to have to work that hard....

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

'Twas quite close, then. I thought, somewhy, that Clark 'd be even more ahead.

i'm kinda obsessed with gene's stuff in a way i never could be with parsons stuff. so i voted for gene. i also like burrito group stuff more than parsons solo.

― scott seward, Friday, February 6, 2009 11:05 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

QFT. Parsons was (for me) a great gateway into country, Emmylou, hippy-rock, etc. But Clark's songs feels like they'll be for life. They're somehow mysterious, in a way that obviously speaks to his talents as songwriter, but also his bad luck(?) in translating those talents into great records. I always feel with Clark like he never had a producer/arranger/collaborator that really understood him or could corral his songs into truly iconic records (thinking about his non-Byrds output, obvs), which maybe contributes to my sense of him as not pin-downable, as slippery, as someone that I'll never finally 'figure out'.

'Two Sides' is a good record. The first side has 'Homerun King' and 'In the pines' which wouldn't have been out of place on the Dillard and Clark records (they feature Dillard), it also has a kind of 'Nutbush city limits' take on 'Kansas City Southern' (sorry Gene, but it's true). The second side is brillant (with the exception of the cover of 'Mary Sue'): 'Sister Moon', 'Hear the Wind', 'Past Addresses' and 'Silent Crusade' are all classic Gene ballads.

A must for Gene Clark fans.

hmm might be coming around to the "gene clark is better than gram parsons" argument. this means something.

he's got a much ~deeper~ body of work, and his songwriting was more diverse, imo. i am down with gram too don't get me wrong, but i think as a aongwriter he was nowhere near gene. both were strong vocalists.

Yep

Chris Ethridge R.I.P.

oh bummer. on so many great records!

Yeah, I never realized how many great non-FBB records he'd been on.

yeah he seems to have been a fixture on the west coast country rock scene of the early 70s.

No Other is the one album which can truly be described as Cosmic American Music.

Gene Clark was the unsung genius of American music and this masterpiece proves it.

No Other is one of my Desert Island albums, alongside
A Storm in Heaven (The Verve)
Spirit of Eden (Talk Talk)
Lazer Guided Melodies (Spiritualized)