Who Started What: Ramones/Sex Pistols Punk Feud V. Led Zeppelin/Black Sabbath Metal Feud

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Another thing that pissed me off, talkin' about who started punk rock music. Was it Sex Pistols in England? Was it the Ramones in the Velvet Underground in New York? 'It was the Ramones!' 'It was the Sex Pistols!' Raahh!

Histories of heavy metal also tend to vary according to where and when they were written. For instance, the title for which was the first real heavy metal band is a contest between Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. Americans tend to pull for Led Zeppelin, a band that has been popular in the United States for more than twenty years, but the British favor Black Sabbath.

Side Question: C/D feuding over who started what genre. (First quote from SLC Punk, second quote from Deena Weinstein's Heavy Metal.) Is it just nationalism? Is it worth fighting over? (Can it ever be classic?) Is there an obviously right answer in either of these feuds? Other examples in other genres of this sort of thing?

Poll Results

Option	Votes
Who Started Metal? Led Zeppelin/Black Sabbath	7
Who Started Punk? Ramones/Sex Pistols	5

― Mordy, Thursday, 19 March 2009 19:00 (sixteen years ago)

The Ramones are quite obvious before the Sex Pistols. Whether they "started" punk or not, I don't think that's in question.

The Zep/Sab one is tougher, and more subtle, most I guess whether you consider Zeppelin "metal" proper or not.

― be on the treadmill - uh! - like OK GO (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 19 March 2009 19:02 (sixteen years ago)

Even if the Ramones/Sex Pistols one is more obvious, it always seemed to me that fans cared a bit more about it. Like it meant something to them if their country started punk. Whereas with Heavy Metal fans it always seemed a bit more academic.

― Mordy, Thursday, 19 March 2009 19:06 (sixteen years ago)

Led Zep are offended if you call them Heavy Metal.

― President Keyes, Thursday, 19 March 2009 19:19 (sixteen years ago)

Jesus, people. It was Jerry Lee Lewis.

― Jazzbo, Thursday, 19 March 2009 19:20 (sixteen years ago)

Blue Cheer invented heavy metal

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 19:54 (sixteen years ago)

and Witchcraft invented SATANISM

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 19:55 (sixteen years ago)

no way TRV KVLT satanists like Anton La Vey and Sammy Davis Jr dig organ jazz not metal!

― be on the treadmill - uh! - like OK GO (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 19 March 2009 19:57 (sixteen years ago)

no wait I mean Coven invented Satanism!

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 19:58 (sixteen years ago)

also Madness invented ska

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 19:58 (sixteen years ago)

Richard Hell started metal.

― james k polk, Thursday, 19 March 2009 20:02 (sixteen years ago)

Jimmy Carr started ska

― Mark G, Thursday, 19 March 2009 20:21 (sixteen years ago)

311 invented Omaha Stylee

― be on the treadmill - uh! - like OK GO (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 19 March 2009 20:22 (sixteen years ago)

Hoobastank invented the internet

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 20:28 (sixteen years ago)

Chose the Sab vs. Zep feud because it isn't tinged with the whole extramusical America-vs-Great Britain powderkeg thing. (Although if I was in a feistier mood, I might've gone with Ramones vs. Pistols for that exact same reason, of course.)

― Myonga Vön Bontee, Thursday, 19 March 2009 21:40 (sixteen years ago)

fwiw the Ramones are so many millions times better than the Sex Pistols

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 21:47 (sixteen years ago)

I'd rather listen to the Ramones than the Sex Pistols, but unquestionably the Pistols are a million times more punk than the Ramones.

― Alex in SF, Thursday, 19 March 2009 21:51 (sixteen years ago)

The second question doesn't interest me cuz anyone who thinks it was Zeppelin is crazy.

― Alex in SF, Thursday, 19 March 2009 21:52 (sixteen years ago)

"you really got me" invented punk, "all day and all of the night" invented metal

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 19 March 2009 21:59 (sixteen years ago)

and jimmy page played 'em both suckaz

― Fox Force Five Punchline (sexyDancer), Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:21 (sixteen years ago)

Both questions aren't really about who started it, but the definitions of the genre, right? Like the objection isn't going to be that "No, really, the Ramones formed as a band after the Sex Pistols," but that somehow what the Ramones did wasn't "real" punk. Nationalism has less to do with it I think.

― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:21 (sixteen years ago)

imho punk is a method, not a genre

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:32 (sixteen years ago)

metal is definitely a genre tho

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:32 (sixteen years ago)

Do you think there's a musical genre that coincides with the time that people started using the term "punk" to describe a certain musical scene / certain bands? Like, is there a genre commonality between Sex Pistols and Ramones, even if you don't think that genre should be called "punk"?

― Mordy, Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:34 (sixteen years ago)

who invented rap metal

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:35 (sixteen years ago)

Howlin' Wolf.

― Alex in SF, Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:37 (sixteen years ago)

And he doesn't like it.

― Alex in SF, Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:37 (sixteen years ago)

Like, is there a genre commonality between Sex Pistols and Ramones, even if you don't think that genre should be called "punk"?

they are both rock bands

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:38 (sixteen years ago)

"punk rock" term first appears in print in '72, referring to music from the 60s

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:39 (sixteen years ago)

that's the problem with "punk" as a musical signifier - the term is too bound up with all these other non-musical things like being an outcast, being DIY, being aggressive, etc. So much so that you could make a fairly strong case that, say, Charlie Feathers (or whoever) is "punk" and it would be totally legitimate.

― Roberto Mussolini (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 March 2009 22:44 (sixteen years ago)

Punk was started by Death.

― moley, Thursday, 19 March 2009 23:20 (sixteen years ago)

punk is dead?

― I think no pants is sexy. (Matt P), Thursday, 19 March 2009 23:23 (sixteen years ago)

I'm pretty sure this was started by the movie "Savage Streets."

― f. hazel, Thursday, 19 March 2009 23:26 (sixteen years ago)

Maybe the real first bands are the ones that were it and nothing but it. Judas Priest and Sham 69.

― james k polk, Friday, 20 March 2009 03:57 (sixteen years ago)

two weeks pass...

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

― System, Friday, 3 April 2009 23:01 (sixteen years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

― System, Saturday, 4 April 2009 23:01 (sixteen years ago)

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