IS ROCK CRITICISM DEAD?

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"In considering the role of cultural criticism in the era of the Internet, the entertainment conglomerate, the niche market, Alec Hanley Bemis determines that now more than ever we need critics who are idiosyncratic and passionate — who give a shit. Critics like Richard Meltzer, the first man to write a book about rock & roll, and Paul Williams, founder of the first magazine about rock. "

― chaki, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

u have to click on their names on the right to get to the meltzer and williams interviews.

― chaki, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

why is it always, wee need more idiosyncractic and passionate critics who give a shit? there are lots of those, take a look around. why isn't it, we need fewer critics who don't give a shit?

― Josh, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

wait, I change my vote, less critics with no ideas of their own. the ones who don't give a shit but have ideas will either not bother us or will entertain us.

― Josh, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Hear, hear! I'm damn sick of the Lester Bangs clones.

― Daniel_Rf, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

God the LA weekly sucks. Do you guys have -any- decent papers out there on the west coast? (ducks)

― geeta, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

rock city news!

― chaki, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

We need more music journalists that are aware that they are actually fucking music journalists, and not racounnters paid to deliver entertaining monologues about the time they played Yahtzee with Steve Albini when they're meant to be reviewing the new Promise Ring album, or whatever.

― Dom Passantino, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

paul williams is a fkn AWFUL writer!! and if there were in fact two ppl like meltzer — who as a critic i wuv btw — i think they wd shut our region of the galaxy down, for asshole overload overhaul

― mark s, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

haha I interviewed Williams. Ed Ward sent the editor a lenghty email about Paul. Very uh... interesting.

― nathalie, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

also fewer critics who know who any old rock critics are. or who call themselves 'rock critics'.

― Josh, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Have to disagree very loudly on this one. Music is hard enough to write about as it is without taking away any sort of learning devices, too. I can't possibly see what harm reading "The Heart Of Rock & Soul" or "Rap Attack #3" and examining the styles of Marsh, Topp or Bangs could possibly do, as long as you don't fall into the pitfall of ripping them off. Everyone needs their influences.

― Daniel_Rf, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Now more than ever we need criticism that is idiosyncratic and passionate. Good critics are not reporters. They should not be objective. They should write about media they actually enjoy, and tell us what they see in it. Modern critics should have a command of their own subjectivity and a capacity to wonder. They should swoon. They should teach the audience how to love.

most of this stuff you can pick up all over the place, in terms of influences.

― Josh, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Unfortunately, critics, and criticism, are becoming more and more irrelevant. Their authority has been undermined by chat rooms, bulletin boards and online reviews from your fellow Amazon.com customer.

if this is so, then where did all these people learn how to write about music? surely most of them didn't do it by reading the 'greats'.

― Josh, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

One Lester Bangs is plenty, thankyewverymuch.

― Lord Custos v2.3, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

We need more writers who don't try to impress anyone with their views.

― Travis Johnson, Sunday, 16 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Paul Williams is really the anti-Meltzer, isn't he? I have his "The 20th Century's Greatest Hits" and it's pretty disappointing since it's such a great idea. His choices for the best art of the century include "Sister Ray," Dune, Stranger in a Strange Land, Gandhi (the film), some Japanese self-help textbook, Kundun, and RENALDO AND CLARA for Christsake!

― Justyn Dillingham, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

yes where is pokemon? what a clown!

― mark s, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

'we need critics...'

No we don't. I am well aware that some critics are truely beautiful people, kind, sensitive and attentive lovers, morally upstanding and intellectually captivating too.

But nobody has ever written a single word on pop music that made any difference to either the listener or the musician.

There is no such thing as influence.

― Alexander Blair, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

We need critics is wrong of course but only because we don't need music or paintings or football or anything else either, we don't need anything at all really do we?

― Ronan, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

But nobody has ever written a single word on pop music that made any difference to either the listener or the musician.

Including the sentence quoted above, presumably. So...why did you even bother typing it in, then?

― Michael Daddino, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

But nobody has ever written a single word on pop music that made any difference to either the listener or the musician.

Eh...given how many bands I first found out about because somebody wrote about them in such a way that I was intrigued, I'd have to disagree. But if you mean that if a listener who has already heard some music and then decided on its worth wouldn't be influenced by a critical opinion, that's something else.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That should read 'nobody has ever written a word of CRITISISM that made a difference to the listener...'.

― Alexander Blair, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That should read 'nobody has ever written a word of CRITISISM that made a difference to the listener...'.

Ahh...I see. But the sentence is still an example of music criticism, since you're saying something about an aspect of rock culture (music criticism isn't merely about records, y'know), and hence, still defeats itself.

― Michael Daddino, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It doesn't defeat itself because it makes no claims to influence other people and it clearly didn't.

― Alexander Blair, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You typed something. I typed something. Is that not enough? Oh, I think it is. Unless you want to posit some groovy windowless monad thing. If so, I REFUTE IT THUS!

― Michael Daddino, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(By pressing the Submit button, you see.)

― Michael Daddino, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That should read 'nobody has ever written a word of CRITISISM that made a difference to the listener

sorry alexander, but i'm afraid i have read criticism that made a difference. i think you may be extrapolating your experiences to stand for everyone elses again.

― gareth, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah, my experience of reading criticism as a listener indicates that it can make a difference to my listening experience - as well as being a fun thing to read in its own right, of course. I think specific critics who make that claim for their own writing are often wrong, mind you.

― Tom, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Josh: Actually, I think they have- how else could a site like rockcritics.com even exist? Surely 90% of the people who visit it are critics in their own right (unless Rock critics have hordes of admirers who don't write anything themselves).

Alexander: Dave Marsh's takes on "Surfin' USA", "I Second That Emotion" and "Don't Worry Baby" from "The Heart Of Rock & Soul"; Lester Bang's dissertation of "Astral Weeks"; Jon Savage, the review of "(White Man) In Hammersmith Palais" in "England's Dreaming"; Robert Lawsley's online essays about the work of Sly Stone; Billy Vera's liner notes on the Rhino 50's Rock box set; Patrick Humphries' track-by-track analysis of the Springsteen ouevre; the review of New Order's latest album in "Q" magazine....

And I'm only getting started here. All of these pieces have made me think in different ways about the music- sometimes opening whole new dimensions to it (Surf music as the will to power? Who woulda though!), sometimes just beautifully bringing something to the point (on "White Man In Hammersmith Palais", Joe Strummer is "the lonliest man in the world").

Much of this music I didn't like before reading other people's takes on it; some of it I just didn't understand. In every case, it enrichened the music for me. And I know I'm not alone here, others have reported similiar experiences.

It's not about being the taste police- it's about making people look at music in diferent ways or just alert them to details they may have missed the first time around.

― Daniel_Rf, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

yes, probably a number of the visitors to rockcritics.com are critics (or people interested in talking about rock music, which I am counting as critics). that doesn't mean that everyone on the internet who is talking about music read greil marcus or whatever. in fact I would guess that most people just ended up reading some anonymous reviews in a newspaper or a magazine, if they even had to do that to get the idea that they could talk about music, and said to themselves, I can do that.

― Josh, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

lots of bad writing => upsurge of better writing

― mark s, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I read a statement like this (out of the article's context) (thanks, Josh):

...and I find myself hard-pressed to see why this is necessarily a BAD thing. Never mind that Bemis is using the big, bad Internet as the scapegoat for a "problem" that's been around a LOT longer (unless the Internet's been around for the 20 years between Meltzer's / Crawdaddy's reign in Camelot and today). And if the problem is the Internet (instead of the niche marketing genocide perpetrated by The Man), then PLEASE leave it broken.

It's a shame, though, because Alec Bemis is one of the better music writers I've encountered (up until this article), and it's a shame to see him fall back on the same crotchety stance that other "rock critics" strike when those pesky kids are playing on their lawn.

Anyone up for KlezmerCritics.com?

― Daver, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

haha, 'their authority has been undermined': think how silly this would sound if it was a school teacher talking to other school teachers about how their authority had been undermined because the kids preferred to learn on their own without the teachers, and actually went and did it. of course the problem with that analogy is that teachers are supposed to know better about some things - the education is for the kids' own good. does the same parallel exist in music criticism? this dude seems to think so.

― Josh, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I like reading reviews to get someone elses opinion on something but I prefer writing them to help me understand something/force me to think about it.

My own opinions are more valuable to me than other peoples, but I like to see how people recieve a certain song or album. I can't remember ever reading a review that MADE me want to go and get an album. I read reviews that make me want to hear a single but mainly because they say "Jon Carter/Erick Morillo have been playing this" and not because they say this is the sonic equivalent of a great date with Kirsten Dunst, or this sounds like a washing machine.

― Ronan, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

My own opinions are more valuable to me than other peoples
...

I read reviews that make me want to hear a single but mainly because they say "Jon Carter/Erick Morillo have been playing this"

Is there a contradiction here Ronan? Or does Jon Carter transcend the mere "people" category.

― Tom, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

lots of bad writing => upsurge of better writing
Why would the presence of bad writing, result in an upsurge of better writing?

― John Dolby, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I suppose it is a contradiction, and DJs don't transcend mortality (just about). But my point was that I can't think of any writer who can present a review so vividly that I want to rush out whatever the work is without using the easy route of namedropping a DJ whom I like.

But you've made me see that dance music is an area where you don't bother so much with reviews except to try and find out what tune is what so you can buy it or download it. You'll already know it of course.

― Ronan, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I never thought there was much 'criticism' anyway but yes, reading reviews might be good for a wank.

― Julio Desouza, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

well without berating and belaboring a point that seems too time consuming to really make, certainly the internet and a collective loss of romanticism for the critic out in the field trying to make the grade, be cool, get close to the movie set/the band, etc. bespeaks a loss of ELOQUENCE, dare I say, INTEGRITY in this business.

Well, I can't say that we weren't warned.

No one ever said the music business was a populist enterprise...

― Steve K, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Dolby: coz history moves by contradiction.

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 17 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

one month passes...

Hey folks. I can't say I really know how this site works so I don't know if anyone will actually see this email. (Are people notified of new responses to old threads?) But, in doing a websearch of my own name I came across this thread. About something I wrote! Geez. Neat.

Why was I doing a websearch on my own name? Well, for one, like all writers, I'm somewhat of a narcissist (and a bad speller). And, secondly, I'm always curious to find out where my articles have been discussed on the net.

I figured I'd respond to some of the responses. My main qualm with what people seem to be saying about my article is that I'm somehow AGAINST the internet, or that I think it's a bad thing. That's the farthest thing from the truth. I LOVE the participatory nature of the internet. As I said above, I periodically google myself after I've published a big article in the LA Weekly. It helps me gauge how good a job I'm doing with my writing. When I see that an article has gotten a big response from those surfing the web -- and my Meltzer/Williams piece has probably gotten the best response yet -- I consider it a sign that I truly am doing something right. When people are discussing something on the web, blogging away, etc. it means they've been struck by something they've been reading or something they've heard or something they've seen. Hitting individual listeners is pretty much the goal of each and every creative person/writer person/musican person I've ever met, so I consider this a great thing indeed.

And to be honest, besides hearing about stuff from friends, I get most of my information on new music from a handful of....websites. Yes, websites. Admittedly most of 'em are not pure up-with-the-people sites -- I don't peruse too many webboards -- but they are very internet-like in character. My faves are:

- http://www.pitchforkmedia.com (for indie hipsterism from some extremely with it and gimlet eyed young observers -- not that I'm old...yet)

- http://www.allmusic.com (for the most comprhensive and handily available encyclopedia of reviews and information ANYWHERE)

- http://www.sxsw.com/music/daily_chord/ (for a fine, fine weblog of industry-ish information...though they also cite excellent reviewing and music writing when they see it)

As for what music criticism is good for? It's good for gauging what individual critics (who are really nothing but individual people) are excited about...basically music fans with a forum. What is the reason to write music criticism (I actually hate the term rock criticism)? Because you enjoy doing it...and you can find no better outlet for a certain kind of energy...and because it pays your rent. That's it.

I think that's that. BTW, the Melter article is available here: http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/30/is-bemis2.php

And the Paul Wililams on here: http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/30/is-bemis3.php

Better yet, pick up one of their books. Try Amazon.com. That's where I buy most of my books. Grrr....internet.

― Alec Hanley Bemis, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

http://www.allmusic.com (for the most comprhensive and handily available encyclopedia of reviews and information ANYWHERE)

Why thank you. And yes, new answers to old threads are noted in the software, which is how I'm noticing this. More comprehensive thoughts later but I need to dash...

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yes, ppl are alerted to new replies to old threads - thanks for answering!

― Tom, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

We need critics is wrong of course but only because we don't need music or paintings or football or anything else either, we don't need anything at all really do we?

Well, that makes 'food critics' much more important than I'd realised....

I used to find some music critics (Jon Savage, John Gill) v. useful in the late 70's as an 'if you like that you might like this too' type of deal, but I can recall Jon Savage also opening up a totally different way of listening for me, and a way of embedding the listening into a wider conceptual setting (the paradigm shift).
But that's felt like a one-shot deal - and music since has become so multifaceted, so complex and so interwoven with other references that most writing about it is nearly incomprehensible to me now. I find David Toop, for example, almost literally (ahem) unreadable.
I also find this 'use other facts' approach (which I think you like mark s?) can generally be more like 'use irrelevancies dug up by the tenuous connections department'.

But then, I'm pretty fossilised by now - I gave up reading the music weeklies at the end of '81: can still remember ripping that year-end NME apart in a fit of absolute fucking rage, a final response to that year's shift towards both 'hedonism' and what were probably the early shoots of populist/ironic appreciation. (The endless stream of Me-Me-Me and Barthes/Heidegger/Cleverclogs guff produced by the Morley/Penman comedy duo were shite too.)

I've found reading this site (and dipping into the FreakyTrigger one) a lot more rewarding though because of the dialogue nature of it, and there seem to be a wide range of types and outlooks here. I'm hoping to use it soon to help me open up to other kinds of music, and find out about, er, stuff, by asking for guidance from contributors who I figure out I might initially have some common ground with......wait, where are you all going ?
*Sound of hooves stampeding away*

― Ray M, Wednesday, 31 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh, we're all not running away, we just linger. :-)

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 31 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Barthes != Heidegger

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 31 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

mark s: paul williams is an awful writer, but his contribution to rock criticism, < I>crawdaddy, is still important for trying to raise the level of discourse about rock and pop beyond just being ad-copy.

― Jack Cole, Wednesday, 31 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

yeah that's fair enough jack, good editors are not always good writers and vice versa: but based on his rep as the firestarter i actually bought a collection of his "critical essays" EVEN THOUGH I HAD ALREADY READ BOTH VOLUMES OF "BOB DYLAN PERFORMING ARTIST" and i am still cross

haha i like dylan but renaldo and clara is still NOT the greatest film ever filmed greatly on film by a great film-maker

― mark s, Wednesday, 31 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Barthes != Heidegger

Well I know they were not the same person...
I also don't think they addressed the same things, but I don't believe I'd implied that - or that the NME's Morecambe & Wise thought so either (actually, maybe it was actually Kierkegaard that one of them went through a phase of quoting).
Or did you mean (Barthes = !Heidegger)in some way?
Do you like both, or think one good and one guff?

You've made me wish I had kept some of the offending NME writings now, to see what it was about them that annoyed me so much...

― Ray M, Wednesday, 31 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Skipping 332 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Let's all get shitty jobs so that Al can afford to take his kid to Starbucks in a couple of years.

― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 June 2009 16:56 (seventeen years ago)

"3,000 rock crits and a baby"

― Beatrix Kiddo, Thursday, 18 June 2009 16:56 (seventeen years ago)

rock criticism is dead, and will be reincarnated as my scion

― some dude, Thursday, 18 June 2009 16:56 (seventeen years ago)

some scion

― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 June 2009 16:58 (seventeen years ago)

congratulations!!

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:00 (seventeen years ago)

"When rock crit is reincarnated as a Scion, can I borrow the keys?"

― Beatrix Kiddo, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:00 (seventeen years ago)

i am enjoying this good cheer because tbh the past 24 hours have been about the most pessimistic and hopeless i have felt about the whole situation since i found out

― some dude, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:00 (seventeen years ago)

christgau is risen

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:00 (seventeen years ago)

lol was toying with christ/gau puns for the past 5 mins but yours was better than any i had

― some dude, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:01 (seventeen years ago)

congrats!

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:03 (seventeen years ago)

which ringtone cru member are u gonna name it after? I propose HOOS

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:03 (seventeen years ago)

also: congrats!

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:04 (seventeen years ago)

some brood

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:05 (seventeen years ago)

true story: once a few years ago the mrs. looked over my shoulder at an AIM window as said "ethan...i like that name"

― some dude, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:08 (seventeen years ago)

i don't think even luriqua is a big enough padgettstan to name his first born that, though

― some dude, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:08 (seventeen years ago)

lol god help us if there's ever a luriqua jr.

― some dude, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:09 (seventeen years ago)

talk about burying the lede!

great new euphemism!

congratulations, some dude sr.!

― dad a, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:09 (seventeen years ago)

name the kid Vedder

― da croupier, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:15 (seventeen years ago)

i think after a family friend who's a huge NIN fan named his first son Trent we collectively put our foot down like NO ROCK STAR NAMES

― some dude, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:17 (seventeen years ago)

i choose to believe your friend named his kid after Trent Tucker

― IUAU812 (M@tt He1ges0n), Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:18 (seventeen years ago)

some woman just came in and sold me a big stack of 70's rolling stones. so i'm gonna sit around and read name-brand critics all day.

― scott seward, Thursday, 18 June 2009 17:48 (seventeen years ago)

Holy crap this thread exploded. Still not finished reading, but I'll just mention that the only critic I've been really following is John Mulvey. Ironically I never noticed him apart from others in the Uncut reviews, mainly because I don't buy it anymore, just skim at the bookstore. I subscribe to Uncut on Twitter, which is mostly incredibly annoying, because it updates what it's playing in the office almost hourly. The one thing that keeps me from canceling are the occasional reminders of Mulvey's posts in his Wild Mercury Sound blog. I like how he reviews promos pretty much when he hears them, long before the official release date when most reviews are coordinated to come out and duly collated at Metacritic, weeks after most of us have heard 'em.

http://www.uncut.co.uk/blog/index.php?blog=6&p=1208&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Looking at his half-year list and recent posts, a lot of this stuff isn't even leaked yet, like Fiery Furnaces, Cornershop, Wild Beasts and White Denim (a Texas band that has no U.S. distribution?) His casual blog-style writing isn't as polished as the 100 word blurbs in the glossies, which is a good thing. It's been a while since a single writer got me excited about multiple releases in a given week. I'm currently listening to Arbouretum and Sleepy Sun, which I wasn't aware of until seeing them in his blog. David Fricke sort of plays this role at Rolling Stone, and would do well to follow the Wild Mercury Sound model and expand on his casual album reviews.

I presume with its overpriced cover price and high overhead, that Uncut's days are numbered. Hopefully Mulvey and some others like him will be able to maintain an audience, perhaps by banding together into their own site?

― Fastnbulbous, Thursday, 18 June 2009 20:49 (seventeen years ago)

― some dad (some dude), Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:15 AM (3 months ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^ i thought this qualified as an announcement guys

― some dude, Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:42 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i knew u were reproducing but even i assumed this was abt your dad jokes

now 100% more authentic

― autogucci cru (deej), Thursday, 18 June 2009 22:18 (seventeen years ago)

I barely graduated high school and went to three semesters of community college; while there, I met my wife, and academics went right out the goddamn window.

― unperson, Wednesday, June 17, 2009 6:42 PM (20 hours ago)

This would be the Curvy Colombian Wife, right? Spina Biffita?

― fistula pumping action (sarahel), Thursday, 18 June 2009 22:29 (seventeen years ago)

Bizarre that Mulvey lists Alela Diane at #9 in that list, and no Neko Case at all. (Speaking as someone who loves both albums, but really no comparison.) I wish I remember who I was reading/watching/listening to recently who said that the music critic is transforming/will transform into a curator-like position instead - probably lots of people have been saying that lately. It's something that confused me at Whiney's argument; yes, everyone can download the albums for themselves and render their own judgement, but who has time for that?

― Mordy, Thursday, 18 June 2009 22:37 (seventeen years ago)

five years pass...

Looking for a good place to put this. Failing.

A pretty good conversation between Carl "Let's Talk About Love" Wilson and Jesse "Jian Gomeshi's a Raging Pervert" Brown, on Brown's podcast: http://canadalandshow.com/podcast/last-music-critic

― hardcore dilettante, Thursday, 6 November 2014 00:35 (eleven years ago)

Bit dull. Also, hyperbolic and meta. Would rather he was just talking about new music that he's into etc. That should be the job of a music critic. Next podcast: "what does it mean when the writer we're calling the last music critic goes on a show and never discusses any music."

― everything, Thursday, 6 November 2014 02:01 (eleven years ago)

"the writer we're calling the last music critic"--do people actually say that?

― clemenza, Thursday, 6 November 2014 23:56 (eleven years ago)

"The Last Music Critic" is the name of the podcast episode. Starts off with Brown saying stuff like "Carl Wilson changed the way we think about music. I don't know if that's hyperbole or not". I'm listening to this thinking "YES. IT'S HYPERBOLE!"

― everything, Friday, 7 November 2014 00:15 (eleven years ago)

Thanks--why the royal "we" is a terrible idea. (Not really a knock on Wilson; definitely a knock on whoever would make such a statement.)

― clemenza, Friday, 7 November 2014 00:20 (eleven years ago)

In the podcast Brown goes on about how he (I guess as a teenager) hated hip-hop but finally started to like it in the early 90s, realizing his own musical snobbery. In 2007 Wilson did his book about Celine Dion which somehow reminded Brown of his own experience (of shedding his rockism or whatever). In this way, Wilson "changed the way we think about music". It's all a bit silly. I'd rather have Wilson just do his job and talk about whatever music is on his radar right now.

― everything, Friday, 7 November 2014 00:35 (eleven years ago)

He who is not busy being born is busy dying

― Thackeray Zax (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 7 November 2014 01:09 (eleven years ago)

eleven years pass...

https://embedded.substack.com/p/will-music-criticism-survive

― jaymc, Friday, 26 June 2026 14:55 (one month ago)

As a white man in his fifties, I am very upset that my opinions were not solicited for this piece.

― wipes chooser (unperson), Friday, 26 June 2026 15:40 (one month ago)

I mean as long as we can agree Fantano is not criticism we are still some place other than dead.

― IckyMetal, Friday, 26 June 2026 19:03 (one month ago)

A person born on the day this thread was started is probably too old to care much about new music.

― Pathetic failed Dumocrat Senator, Os(jerk!)off (President Keyes), Friday, 26 June 2026 19:07 (one month ago)

Having read the second half of this opus, where the panelists name their favorite critics and outlets, I feel a Groucho-esque sense of relief ("I wouldn't belong to any club that would have me as a member"); “pops Bob Christgau’s balls out of his mouth just long enough to say ‘Pitchfork’s still got it!’” is not exactly my take on things.

― wipes chooser (unperson), Friday, 26 June 2026 19:21 (one month ago)

incredible. unsurprising but incredible. pic.twitter.com/cnZF4RQs6h
— "Lou"ReedTyranny (@nakedfoul) June 26, 2026

― mobb derp (voodoo chili), Friday, 26 June 2026 21:26 (one month ago)

the man with no brain

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 26 June 2026 22:29 (one month ago)

honestly at least Klosterman has some fuckin hutzpah

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 26 June 2026 22:29 (one month ago)

Chuck Eddy names off critics I enjoy reading Dave Moore, Brad Luen, and Daddy B. Nice. Moore writes about a lot of non-English language pop, Luen about African music, rock, pop, and Daddy B. Nice about southern soul

― curmudgeon, Saturday, 27 June 2026 03:53 (one month ago)

Catucci for Embedded didn't really include any jazz critics it appears (or ones into jazz and metal like Unperson). Lots of Pitchfork related folks and various others

― curmudgeon, Saturday, 27 June 2026 16:28 (one month ago)

Steven Hyden seems to get a lot of grief from people. What's the story there? I've been enjoying his Substack and "Catalog Club" podcast lately. Based on that, he doesn't strike me as an abrasive sort of personality. So what gives?

― JRN, Saturday, 27 June 2026 18:12 (one month ago)

He's just the most normie dude imaginable. His musical opinions are the equivalent of "You know what's really good? A peanut butter and jelly sandwich on lightly toasted white bread!" So if people give him shit, it's probably for acting like being totally unadventurous is somehow worth celebrating.

― wipes chooser (unperson), Saturday, 27 June 2026 18:21 (one month ago)

I can see how he's "normie" and unadventurous compared to some other music critics, but I don't detect any sense that he thinks unadventurousness is to be celebrated.

I understand that lots of people will have little use for another rock critic writing about critically acclaimed rock, but I appreciate that he makes an effort to find new things to say about canonical acts--e.g. his podcast episode about the first Ramones album, where he draws analogy between their approach to '60s rock and roll and what the early Godard was trying to do in film. I also liked a post he wrote assessing the rising and falling critical stocks of various acts over the years and the reasons for each. Seemed like exactly the kind of thing people would discuss in ILX in fact

― JRN, Saturday, 27 June 2026 20:21 (one month ago)

I feel that so much criticism has been reduced to gentler commentary, or broader, less specific think pieces, either for the sake of continued access or as an entry point to talking head side hustle or whatever. I don't mind people no longer being interchangeably mean and "critical," but I do feel people like Hyden take it relatively easy, or avoid controversy, for the sake of their own careers. Which I totally understand in 2026, and don't always mind when the output is fine. Grayson, for example, I think he is a good writer and a good profiler, and while comparisons to Crowe are imo unfair, I can see why his output might lead one to that conclusion. But compare his profiles to his gloves-off takedown of Jesse Welles, which was reserved for his personal social media accout. I wonder what he might have written had he been assigned by GQ or whomever to profile Welles? Would he turn the gig down? Would he be less ... critical? Would he have written a fluffier "here's what I got wrong/missed" reconsideration piece?

― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 27 June 2026 21:02 (one month ago)

This is a problem, but it's just one part of a much larger problem, which is... doesn't anyone want to learn something new anymore? How many times must we return to the well of the same two dozen (white, male, rock) artists? There is so much music in the world, but all people (writers, editors, readers) seem to want is "to find new things to say about canonical acts". I mean, that's why I love to read - and write for - The Wire, because every single issue I find myself saying, "I've never even heard of this person! I'm going straight to Bandcamp to check that record out!" Meanwhile, everybody else just seems to want to do their own version of Mojo.

― wipes chooser (unperson), Saturday, 27 June 2026 21:25 (one month ago)

tbf Mojo has introduced me to stuff I wouldn’t have checked out otherwise

― The Immortal Bird of Avon (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 27 June 2026 21:38 (one month ago)

Well this decades-long thread is a topsy-turvy ride! And full of both enlightening insights and absurd truisms that, taken together, add up to a group-sourced and thought-over theory that is probably worth pondering (which is exactly what I've been doing in my role as constant lurker.) However, I would like to state that, IMHO, Meltzer's 'The Aesthetics of Rock' is the best book ever written about 'rock' (even though it cuts off several years before 'rock' has become what we now know as Rock.) I've managed to maintain my enthusiasm for Meltzer's incomparable fictional thesis by NOT reading anything that he wrote after he wrote that book (warned off of it both via my own instinct and the advice of others that I trust.) Nobody has come closer to what Manny Farber did for film than Richard Meltzer did in one, absurdly silly, but truly profound book. Of course, the amount of popular music that was created after circa 1969 renders Meltzer's book limited to say the least (in a similar way to Liian Roxon's 'Rock Encyclopedia.) Which is why I've never stopped reading about popular music to (as well as listening to popular music) to 2026, and (hopefully) beyond.

― marjory gatorade, Sunday, 28 June 2026 19:21 (one month ago)

Recommending this to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZgv5JJM-L8

A friend did a whole bunch of Meltzer-related interviews/clips--eight in all, I think--that you should be able to find from that link.

― clemenza, Sunday, 28 June 2026 20:34 (one month ago)

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