The Smiths vs. Cocteau Twins

lol

i dunno.. immediate reaction is cocteaus, but i've listened to them far less than the smiths and don't think they've reached the same heights.. however the CTs have aged better and i'm more likely to listen to them now. so i'm going with my initial reaction.

I don't 'get' the Cocteau Twins. But that doesn't really matter because I can't think of any 1v1 band poll where I wouldn't vote for The Smiths.

Other than the strength of the catalogs & prominence in the 80s, I don't really get the basis for comparison, but I've got to go with the Cocteaus, regardless. Not that I don't love The Smiths, but I'd be hard pressed to think of anything I would vote for over the Cocteaus.

lol, I didn't see your post until after I'd written mine.

we are anti-soulmates or something

would've voted smiths in a heartbeat five yrs ago, more likely to vote for twins now

I've been listening to a lot of Cocteau Twins lately, especially Blue Bell Knoll and Heaven or Las Vegas, still gotta go with The Smiths on this one.

Morrissey vs Liz Fraser would be entertaining.

You mean like in a cage match?

Heaven or Las Vegas is one of my favorite records EVER. Looking at my last.fm stats, I have 650 plays of Cocteau Twins, and I'll bet you half of that is that one record.

But I don't know about this poll. Major hmmmm.

Fucking vote for the Cocteaus already!

Wow, toughie. I'd say that the Smiths were a more versatile band, but rarely were they capable of reaching the celestial heights of otherness that the Cocteaus achieved so effortlessly.

i think i missed the point where the cocteau twins werent mind-numbingly boring

maybe it's you

yipe

as much of a dick answer as that was, any recommendations on an essential something to listen to? always thought of them as sort of a second rate lush/this mortal coil hybrid, but im willing to be wrong.

Victorialand is not like Lush.

That was recommendation rather than an argument.

second rate lush/this mortal coil hybrid

GAH! THERE WOULD BE NO LUSH NOR TMC WITHOUT THE COCTEAUS!!!

Seek ye The Pink Opaque -- a handily compilation of their earlier material. If that doesn't move you, chances are they're not the band for you.

Calling the Cocteaus a second rate Lush is like calling Nirvana a second rate Marcy Playground.

(and I like Lush!)

Smiths, but that's no slight to the Cocteau Twins.(n.1) What's the basis for comparing these acts again?

_________________________
(n.1) Like Iatee, I can't think of any poll where I wouldn't vote for the Smiths.

cool thx will investigate xposts

the smiths blow bungholes; lorelei and pearly dewdrops drops fucking owne

I think "Stars and Topsoil" is the best intro to the Cocteaus, it's a collection of mostly singles from 1982-1990.

If this poll were happening ten years ago, then I'd be picking the Smiths without a second thought, but since then they've fallen almost completely off of my radar. Some of their stuff sounds quaint and foolish these days, which would have incomprehensible to my younger self. The Cocteaus still sound as wonderfully bizarre and out there as they did 25 years ago.

would have *been* incomprehensible ...

lorelei and pearly dewdrops drops fucking owne

Yeah, I can't argue with that. Pearly Dewdrops floated down from heaven.

But The Smiths still rule.

justen, heaven and las vegas is one of the most wonderful records ever

i don't even see why we need to talk about the smiths here

but rarely were they capable of reaching the celestial heights of otherness that the Cocteaus achieved so effortlessly.

without even using words! the smiths are all about the lyrics. i'm not discounting marr's genius, but you know what i mean.

"Pearly Dewdrops Drops" has one of the most massive choruses ever written. The Smiths never wrote a chorus that good.

should really be the cocteau twins vs. sigur ros. mumbly nonsense lyrics annoy me to a level where I can't enjoy any band that does it.

I know I'm going against the ilm party line here - but I suspect the party line sometimes is related to the median age of posters - 4ad luv seems sorta generational.

without even using words! - o rly?

Taciturn to fellow
So try to turn to loan him these
Bruised your eye on her staff
So if we send the Roddy, soaks

(We'll be sold to Roddy, sold to Roddy)
Rows of pearly dewdrop's drops
(We'll be sold to Roddy, sold to Roddy)
Tis the lucky lucky penny penny penny
Buys the pearly dew drips soaks

i'm not saying they never used words, but the smiths lyrics are so based in narrative

i have no idea was liz is ever talking about, but i always know what morrissey is saying

I wasn't really suggesting that she was using words in a literal sense. Obviously you can make out the odd English phrase here and there, but her usage of "actual" language seems to serve the same impressionistic, poetic utility as scat singing or whatever. I just posted that that link upthread for the lol factor of someone actually going to the trouble to transcribe her "lyrics," the ILX origin of which can be found here.

smiths easy because of the lyrics. what the fuck is she on about? both great bands though

cocteaus because i can't understand the lyrics and they create a better mood

cocteau twins is not a band i reach for first because of the mood they cast. to be nice -- there are other bands that do that better for me. still they do reach celestial heights sometimes like alex says. morrissey isn't just a narrative guy; he's funny as shit sometimes

i mean, come on -- she can be sub-jon anderson

i don't know who that is and i don't listen to music for lyrics.

4ad luv seems sorta generational

i assume you mean the 'stereotypical 4ad sound'? 4ad are still a very successful label now and these days that's not because of bands that sound like the CTs

I'm going for the Cocteaus here, simply because they're the more otherworldly and unique. I'd probably give up all my Smiths records before ever parting with say, Treasure.

i assume you mean the 'stereotypical 4ad sound'?

yes, this

ha, so weird, I opened this thread intending to post exactly this: "I don't 'get' the Cocteau Twins"

(We'll be sold to Roddy, sold to Roddy)
Rows of pearly dewdrop's drops
(We'll be sold to Roddy, sold to Roddy)
Tis the lucky lucky penny penny penny
Buys the pearly dew drips soaks

LOL where the eff did you get that lyric interp from?

It actually goes something like:

We'll be soaked and ruddy cups
Cups of Pearly Dewdrop drops

etc etc

Anyway Cocteaus hands down, but I've always hated the Smiths with a firey passion.

I secretly hope Cocteaus will win this, at least 20 strong over the Smiths. I guess we'll see. Oh, the teenage carnage.

I think they were pioneers, but Cocteaus sound so dated to me.

Choctaw Twins

If I were honest it would be the Smiths, whom I've loved more and more deeply than the Cocteaus, but ... well, the Cocteaus seem more special, like they accomplished something more striking, but this is just because the things the Smiths accomplished were more broad/universal/pop things, and ... yeah, not sure which way to go here.

I think J.-J. should listen to "Persephone," personally

... which reminds us in plain English that a timepiece never changes face

I must be strange because I like celestial and ethereal and the streets of bloody Manchester equally! Or, almost equally, as I voted for the Cocteaus in the end. Nothing will quite compete with that moment I saw them performing "Musette and Drums" on The Tube.

Oh my fucking god I think I'm going to flip.

Do you know, that when I was a teenager (must have been freshman year) and I was in a classroom in my high school that everyone had left but me, I took the chalk and wrote on a blank chalkboard "Grail overfloweth/there is rain/and there is ink/and there is you" and I left the room?

But on the Smiths side of things, I just watched that recent BBC Rough Trade documentary tonight, and it was wonderful, very cool.

Smiths walk this and I love the twins

Look, I love the Smiths, but this isn't really much of a contest in the end.

man that wax and wane sounds like a warped copy of a tex and the horseheads record

in a good way tho

looool I don't know about Tex & The Horseheads...I thought someone talked to me about them a few years ago. Not sure if it was really them or some other band, now.

Anyway might I add that I have just heard the Liz Fraser version of Chic's "At Last I Am Free" and I'm happy as goddamn clam right now. (yes you can find it on you tube if you care but no one usually does about these things) I don't know if it surpasses Robert Wyatt's version yet, though. I'll have to think about that.

looool I don't know about Tex & The Horseheads

that's because you are still an apprentice goth

Wow, Texacalla! How'd we get on them in this thread??

She was somewhat smokin' hott, inna sorta smack-damaged stylee

I am not an apprentice anything, John D. Watch your mouth!

Not a bad tune, though. I certainly don't remember this band I heard about a few years ago having a female singer by any means, so maybe I am thinking of another band after all. It would be better if it was British of course, but yeah, it's a fine tune. Thanks!

They were on the Enigma roster, if memory serves.

I think Jeffrey Lee Pierce had a bit to do with them; John Doe produced their 2nd album. I remember wanting to see them when they played Satyricon when I lived in Portland, but not being 21 - then buying cigarettes at a gas station the day after and running into them as they gassed up on their way out of town. an, ahem, unspecified number of years later, my own band played with Tex's later concern, Texacala Jones & the Tijuana Hookers...at the exact same club. It was, umm, kind of disorienting and very bizarre.

attempting to find a full copy of their 2nd album this morning led me to Alice Bag's Flickr, which among many other back-in-the-day treats yielded the photograph below. Recognize the gentleman on the left? That's Michael Gira before he moved to New York. In 1979

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3473/3262030786_be4cdbef1b.jpg?v=0

(lotta early pics of Patricia Morrison on that stream too if you go in for SoM after they jumped the shark)

(I can't lie though I love Patricia M. in the Gun Club)

I was gonna say, that looks like Gira on the left.

OLD PICTURES OF MICHAEL GIRA NOW WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE! <3 <3 <3 ILM

My friend knows some old punk dude who knows Patricia...small world I guess. ;)

I would be rightly pelted with leaky bags of my own filth for making this comment, but Gira's looking a bit disconcertingly like Scott Weiland in that pic. May God forgive me.

Do you know, that when I was a teenager (must have been freshman year) and I was in a classroom in my high school that everyone had left but me, I took the chalk and wrote on a blank chalkboard "Grail overfloweth/there is rain/and there is ink/and there is you" and I left the room?

yeah, I knew that

Tex was a, uh, peer, back in the day. She could instill the fear in the most stout-hearted of men, had five times your balls and would as likely rip your face off as say hello and then forget it happened after another gulp of Daniels. Also, she was way cute, but don't quote me.

Dan is making me LOLOLOLOLOL

Hey I'm gonna bump this because I want as many votes as possible, here. Also I just heard "Millimillenary" again for the first time in a billion years and I enjoyed it very much.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

This is SO the Cocteaus it's not even gonna be funny when the votes go the other way.

Well, I've actually got a feeling Cocteaus might take this. But we'll see.

I reckon it might be close!

I relate more to the Cocteaus' lyrics so they win.

Given the result of the Michael Jackson vs. Nick Cave poll, I have no doubt the much more widely adored Smiths are going to take this one. And unrightfully so.

I like the Cocteaus a lot but there is no way they're going to win this poll, come on. We all knew this from the beginning.

(besides, The Smiths are better up until their last album)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

lol

Ha, said it'd be close!

Oh my god. That's...almost *too* close. Can't really draw any conclusions at all from that, I'd say. Well, I think we've done very well here, ILXors.

I like the Cocteaus a lot but there is no way they're going to win this poll, come on

Sux 2 b u Dan ;P

FUCK YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trying to balance balance contentment at this being soooo close with the "what if" factor of such a near tie.

Coming soon: Smiths vs. Steely Dan?

I'd go with the Smiths on that one.

`Cos, y'know,....... fuck Steely Dan.

This poor soul got mixed up and posted this on the Dadrock thread last night when it obviously belonged here:
The Smiths are for people who like/need lyrics so a certain variety of critic spazzs out over them.

Cocteaus are for people who like music so Xgau and his ilk shit on them.

I remember listening to the first single and literally moaning, Oh fuck, I'm NEVER going to hear the end of this.

Cocteaus by a flanging mile.

― i, grey, Friday, May 1, 2009 5:39 AM (10 hours ago) Bookmark

This is actually an interesting way to look at it. Band with best lyricist ever vs. Band where lyrics aren't needed

Ha, I didn't vote, love the Cocteaus, and I would have voted for the Smiths, so closer than you know...

Band with best lyricist ever who has repeated different versions of the same lines and sentiments his entire career vs. Band where lyrics aren't needed

This is why I voted Cocteaus... I'm a Smiths fan, too, but Morrissey's lyrics get old so fast.

I think steely dan would take that poll

yeah

i mean steely dan beat fleetwood fucking mac

the cocteaus won? i don't believe it. they already sounded dated ten years ago. whereas the tunes of the smiths still sound fresh like the cry of a new born. ilm, sometimes i don't get you at all.

the smiths sound fresh? the cocteaus sound like they are from the future, in space, and underwater

steely dan v nirvana