Michael Jackson: Classic or Dud?

as an aside. i love it, when, in 'earth song', he suddenly shouts 'what about the elephants!?', as though he just remembered about the elephants. he's really upset about the environment and that, and then, all of a sudden, there's the elephants, and its like the final straw...

I would hate to live in your parallel universe of horrifically-dated Michael Jackson songs. Personally, I'm happy here in my world surrounded by "Rock With You", "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough", "She's Out Of My Life", "Billie Jean", "Wanna be Startin' Somethin'", "Human Nature", "The Way You Make Me Feel", "Smooth Criminal", "Liberian Girl", "Leave Me Alone", "Dirty Diana", "Jam", "Remember The Time", "Who Is It?", "Why You Wanna Trip On Me?", "Scream", and "You Are Not Alone". I'm also glad that, in my world, an artist doesn't have to have a good song out right now to be considered a classic.

The solo stuff... Oh my god. So many great songs. He's certainly one of the few artists who can claim to have touched that many people emotionally.

I can almost see how "Dirty Diana" could be considered embarassing, but "Jam" is pure rockin' fun and "Scream" may be simplistic sermonizing but DAMN does it make me want to shake my booty.

I will not rise to the obvious Janet-fan baiting. :)

Always a source of fun, MJ. Often of late that fun has not been musical but I would probably enjoy his greatest hits a lot more than I'd guess just reading the tracklist. Just for "Thriller" though he'd be a classic.

Jarvis v Jackson: a heterosexual harrassing a homosexual in public and getting lots of right on people's applause for it. Something a little worrying there, no?

For the social, aesthetic, philosophical, satirical implications of the Man, the Myth: classic.

Classic for that. Classic for Billie Jean. Classic for being bonkers.

And, for Nick's information, "right-on" people like myself were on Jarvis's side because Jackson, that night, was arrogant and offensive in his presentation of himself as a godlike figure, and of course his proximity to young children would always have seemed creepy anyway. But I'd concur with Tom in that large parts of MJ's back catalogue are classic, as is the man and the myth as a whole, though a lot of the "Dangerous" era now sounds like really embarrassing clock-chasing.

Jarvis hardly confirms to the stereotypical check-shirted homo- baiting jock image does he? It was boorish behaviour, but I'm sure that something other than sex-hatred was on his mind when he stormed the stage. Quite what was, I'm not sure, other than a dislike of bombast.

Jackson is a shining example of how pop performers can extend this fakeness into the realm of their own identities. Seen in this light, the incident was a culture clash between UK and US values on the question of the mutability of identity. The US, a nation of immigrants and self-made people, has always been more Nietzschean about this.

It was also, ironically, a man who lived in a monarchy attacking a citizen of a revolutionary republic because he'd been enough of an upstart to grab the title 'king' for himself, rather than leave it to Prince Charles or whoever.

If we attacked every performer who's ever styled himself 'Earl' or 'Duke' or 'King' we'd end up harrassing half the black jazz and pop greats.

Regarding Nick's allegations that it had something to do with homophobia, I believe you're projecting your own preconceptions onto this episode.

Classic for the past music, but now I hate him with the burning fury of a supernova.

The next King Of Britain says stuff like 'Modern architecture is a hideous carbunkle' and 'Genetic engineering is an affront to the Creator'.The American King Of Pop builds Neverland and performs genetic experiments on monkeys and himself while grabbing his crotch and singing about 'keeping it in the closet'.

I know who gets my vote, er, sorry, constitutional allegiance.

Musically, my radio-drenched youth would have been poorer without him. But frankly, over the long term I think Janet ended up kicking his butt.

I Want You Back
A.B.C.
The Love You Save
I'll Be There
I Wanna Be Where You Are
We Got a Good Thing Goin'
Shoo Be Do Be Do Da Day
Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground)
Don't Stop Til You Get Enough
Rock With You
Off the Wall
Workin' Day and Night
Billie Jean
Wanna Be Startin' Something
P.Y.T.
Thrilller
Bad
The Way You Make Me Feel

(80:54 - chronological, It was difficult to cut "Dancing Machine" since it really shows the midpoint of his voice change. I know there are a lot of great latter day tracks missing here that would be good on a MJ solo stuff only disc).

HIStory and Dangerous are ridiculously underrated. Sure, they're a big departure from Off The Wall and Thriller, but they sounded distinctive and considerably more courageous than a lot of other pop pap out at the time. Forget Black Or White or the execrable Childhood, listen to Jam, She Drives Me Wild, In The Closet, Who Is It, Scream, They Don't Care About Us, Money, Tabloid Junkie, 2Bad, HIStory, even the remix album had high-calibre tracks like Morphine and Ghosts, and none of these sounded remotely like anything else on pop radio at the time. I happen to think they sounded mighty funky.

The most recent album is a total dud though, mostly because (apart from 2000 Watts) it's full of songs that sound like they really really care about being hits, and really really want to sound like all the other songs that have been hits recently. For the first time ever it is Michael Jackson trying desperately to sound like something other than himself, and it fails miserably.

Almost everything else is CLASSIC, CLASSIC, CLASSIC.

Even Off The Wall and Thriller are just PRETTY GOOD despite getting the collective nod from most sides as being the over-exposed weirdo's golden era.

But he's a hands-down classic for his legacy as a freakshow media juggernaut alone, ongoing as it is into it's fourth goddam decade!

Whoever saw such a public spectacle than this ageing, trans-racial, trans-gendered, trans-humanist effigy - shyly, yet boldly parading himself through the media hoisted upon his own shoulders?!?

I feel like we've been doing this every 9 months for years, but there's always just a spate of articles and thinkpieces and message board posts like "Why do people still listen to R. Kelly?", "Why do people still listen to Morgan Wallen", "Why do people still listen to Morrissey?", "Why do people still listen to Ye?", "Why do people still listen to Michael Jackson?" "How do we separate the art from the artist?" and the answer is almost always that regular people are not on social media all day and just do not care.

Maybe reading is not for you.

I liked Israel Daramola at Defector on this.

That's excellent.

yeah that was a satisfying read. it's sort of an object lesson in how families cover up abuse tbh.

Daramola's easily one of my favorite music writers of this decade, and stuff like this shows how much further/deep he can go. Well worth looking into his Defector reads for sure (but you will need to subscribe).

I’ve been thinking processing the past week and I’m def in a “jail for all the Jackson’s (incl Janet, sorry)” and “guillotine for all the lawyers” stance these days

When I arrived for my shift at the food pantry today, David - about my age, Black, knows I am into music - immediately asked me if I saw the "Michael" movie. I told him, man, I dunno, and he asked why. I told him I was reluctant to dip into that story, because of the allegations, and he shook his head and said he didn't believe the claims. I told him, diplomatically, that at the very least there are some serious questions, but he wasn't buying it. He said he had no problem losing (his words) "another one of ours," and cited R. Kelly and Bill Cosby, but he said when it came to Michael, he just thought it was a frame job/conspiracy theory, something involving Tommy Mottolla and recanted testimony. I told him there were still accusers and their accounts out there, but he wouldn't have it, then threw in that since MJ was dead, anyway, it's not like he's benefitting from the movie, so there's no reason not to see it.

quite a year for MJ, he's just been appointed as interim manager at Burnley

xp I did a cursory search on social media and you can see a lot of posts urging people to go see the film while dismissing the allegations. I don't want to repeat some of the reasons why that haven't been covered here but it's just presumptive nonsense that doesn't help anyone. It's not just regular fans but a lot of important figures in music history. I posted not too long ago (before the film's marketing really took off) that I hadn't seen much pushback against the allegations, and someone responded that they just overheard two people claiming he was framed - apparently that seems to be the general consensus and I just wasn't hearing it before.

Last night, they played 'Michael Jackson' the movie in heaven where MJ, Chadwick Boseman, Paul Walker and several others watched. pic.twitter.com/aPqgl53xWa

— Oluwatimileyin✨🦋 (@Timmysofine) April 29, 2026

oh no

oh yes

Disappointed it didn’t have Kurt Cobain sharing popcorn with Jimi Hendrix.

Jimmy Savile with Rolf Harris would be more apt surely?

Huh. Gary Glitter is still alive, 81 years old.

Barely alive if reports are to be believed.

Uplifting biopic on hold for now

no Ian Watkins no credibility

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lViUWJPBaxo

the noise around mj feels very surreal in the way the noise did around amber heard

South Park got it right years ago:

"Sure, he may have touched some children now and then, but the man is a great singer and has entertained us for so many years"

I defended MJ for years due to the cognitive dissonance but eventually there's only so much you can deflect.

There are people who haven't seen Leaving Neverland that got swept up in the "the dad made it up to extort money" narrative. Many that did watch it did it just so they could try to poke holes in it.

A more understandable bit of defensiveness might also come from the fact that White America has always teeing off on Black celebrities in a disparate manner to white celebrities. They were on MJ's ass long before the allegations, making Whitney/Bobby jokes, Ike/Tina, and it was always punching down.

The MJ jokes after the allegations were always in poor taste, so I wouldn't doubt some might have understandably asked "is there more to this, or is White America trying to tear down another talented Black individual for being different or struggling with personal issues".

That plus if you first heard about it in the 90s, you just got snippets of what he was accused of along with tabloid-level reporting unless you deliberately followed the case.

I remember the first time I argued with someone about it in the early 2000s I had a ton of details about the original case wrong because I only knew the broad strokes and my inherent pro-MJ bias filled in false memories (I thought the case was dismissed rather than settled, for one)

(Purpose of South Park quote was to illustrate why many continue to think he's innocent or ignore what he did, not my thoughts)

It's just such a mess at this point. Some people settled, some didn't. Some accusers changed their stories, some didn't. Some newer accusers may be out for money, some aren't. Some people involved are alive, some (not just Michael) aren't. But I reminded myself of some facts this morning, which are more than enough to leave a bad taste in your mouth, details that would be shameful to defend or excuse:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations

occam's razor is really the most compelling argument here

Yea it's really hard to look at the facts head-on and draw any conclusion but the obvious.

As much as Jackson, his lawyers, and estate screamed that this was all subterfuge by grifting parents wanting money, then why are you paying lavish sums to every person who accuses you?

"I didn't want this drawn out/sensitive things being shown in court" might have worked on people after the initial accusation, but "fuck these grifting assholes who try and tell lies so I'll pay them" tends to lose a bit of credibility when you do, in fact, pay them every time instead of actually fighting to dismiss the charges in court.

It's the type of thing that, with perhaps anybody but the biggest pop star in America, would have been accepted, but his music meant too much to too many people who couldn't cope

"I didn't want this drawn out/sensitive things being shown in court" might have worked on people after the initial accusation, but "fuck these grifting assholes who try and tell lies so I'll pay them" tends to lose a bit of credibility when you do, in fact, pay them every time instead of actually fighting to dismiss the charges in court.

Not to mention that we're still talking about it in 2026, even long after his death. Clearly the weight of accusations/evidence was such that trying to pay it away just didn't work. And the Jackson estate is *still* finding ways to suppress information, like getting the "Neverland" doc removed from HBO, or throwing money at the movie to add reputation-favorable reshoots.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations

― Josh in Chicago,

I posted it here earlier this week. Useful.

I thought Jaime Brooks' essay on R. Kelly was good, and yeah, MJ for the most part doesn't get the same treatment for all the factors that have been discussed here.

https://jaimebrooks.substack.com/p/the-greatest-living-american-songwriter

the noise around mj feels very surreal in the way the noise did around amber heard

― ok (D-40)

good comparison, it feels similarly, parasocially insane

Apropos of nothing, the 'They Don't Care About Us' video is going around Twitter and I remember being like 16 when that came out and not even understanding how someone could take "jew me" as anything but a standard MJ statement against oppression of all forms, but now that I'm 46 years old and have been exposed to so many forms of online racism, I can def see how that might have been misinterpreted.

Also the consensus seems to be that that song and video sucks but they both actually rule? Spike Lee, Slash and Olodum, come on!

Which version, the prison video or the Brazil one?

(I prefer the Brazilian version of the song/video but tbh I'm pretty into them both)

One of my students a couple of years ago wrote a whole essay about that video, the Brazil one.

they dont really care abt us is fired idc

*fire

'jew me' is a phrase that stopped being socially acceptable probably in the 80's, certainly well before that song came out. It's just weird that he thought that would be alright.

It's just weird that he thought that would be alright.

Michael Jackson's entire goddamn life summed up in ten words.

Any putative muddiness around testimonies &c is just completely irrelevant when even the official alibi is the most fucked thing you ever heard

“It’s just the everyday scenario of a rich guy procuring boys to sleep with, in a normal way. Educate yourselves” honestly if anyone comes out with this shit — well they’re obv deluded but also be really careful around them tbh

Well, he didn't have a childhood, don't you see?

i still haven't gotten over the propofol and the doctor who agreed to administer it to him. imagine going under general anaesthesia *every night*
it is beyond the beyond

my head starts spinning when I try to understand the lisa marie presley relationship also. like how much of that was showbiz cover up. 'oh btw he was a virgin'

LL otm. I can't believe the doctor went along with it. just give the guy a nasal CPAP and a saline IV and pretend you're administering propofol, same $$ with much less obvious risk of homicide

The thing that they don’t tell you about Leaving Neverland is how Safechuck (in particular) seems to describe the abuse with the same inflections an descriptions as an adult might recollect their first sexually charged romance (as a teen/young adult, with another teen/young adult). This admission of abuse coupled with a sense of strange wistfulness, the frank retelling of what was going on with no scare quotes or gotchas— just a description of a highly secret and sexual relationship; CSA masked as a romance. Jackson’s personality and agency seemed blinding, and the abuse was so “romantic relationship coded” with so many “we’re just kids” elements of play that it immediately makes the changing testimony of his victims become so much more parseable and Jackson’s guilt so undeniable

that's otm

Absolutely otm.

Seeing the confusion and shame in his face broke my heart.

and not even understanding how someone could take "jew me" as anything but a standard MJ statement against oppression of all forms,

in the next line he says "kike me"

On the ABC News program Prime Time Live, Jackson said: "It's not antisemitic because I'm not a racist person ... I could never be a racist. I love all races."[40] He said some of his closest employees and friends were Jewish.

Well that's settled then

https://i.ibb.co/5xRjg8qj/its-black-its-white-michael-jackson-video.gif

^^^ one of the queerest moments in video of the '90s