For those about to Prog.....

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Theres been a lot of talk recntly here about Prog rock. Is it the embarrasing footnote in rock history we were all led to believe or has it been unfairly treated? I mean for every Geneisis and ELP theres a Van Der Graaf Generator or Yes ( both of whom I dont know much about but seem to have picked up a cult following of late). Could everyone pick their own prog rock classic album?

― Michael Bourke, Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

My prog classix are:

King crimson "starless & bible black" Van der graaf generator "pawn hearts" Genesis "nursery cryme"

heh. Take aim...

x0x0x0

― norman fay, Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I like Love (which I wouldn't consider prog, but maybe to someone) and Pink Floyd, but I dislike King Crimson and Rush. I think "prog" rock just means that the musicians are apt to go on and on trying to do things that sound impressive musically, right? Sometimes it works for you, sometimes it doesn't. I like a lot of 2 minute songs, too. I don't feel the need to discount anything that sounds remotely like something I think is for some "loser" group that I don't want to be identified with. The only "loser" group I wouldn't want to be identified with is the hip hop crowd. Their ridiculously large affectations crack me up. Word to your mothers: boys demand respect, and usually don't get it. Boys fight to show their strength. Fear does not equal respect. Fighting = a fragile ego. The machismo surrounding hip-hop, headbanging metal, and anything similar, where a bunch of guys sit around and compare their sausages... it's just insecure boys too ignorant to know any better. Walk your crazy limp walk, jive turkey!

Oh, wait, prog rock? Sorry... ELO and Genesis suck, too.

― , Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't see what the deal is with prog and the bad press it got... it seems that in the late 70s Johnny Rotten et al came along and said - fuck anything that takes itself a bit seriously, has a nice tune or imagination. There is room for both punk and prog now. King Crimson were a brilliant band (seek: the first two albums and starless) and Van Der Graaf are owed by many of today's acts like Broadcast and the Gorky's amongst many others.

― dog latin, Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The prog-punk relationship is slightly more complicated than the above suggests; John Lydon was notably quite a fan of Peter Hammill / Van Der Graaf Generator.

― Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Art-Rock

Rather than thinking about the term prog rock, think of music in terms of being epic, expansive, expressive, and experimental: creative music that goes beyond a particular style that reaches out and extends itself using a variety of instruments, sounds and tempos, music that innovates because it is not tied up with the genre trappings of a particular scene/style

some indicative examples

Trans Am - Red Line Simple Minds - Sons of Fascination/ Sisters Feeling Call Kate Bush - Hounds of Love The Young Gods - Only Heaven Bark Psychosis - Hex Peter Murphy - Should the World Fail to Fall Apart The Gathering - How to Measure a Planet In the Woods - Omnio Tiamat - A Deeper Kind of Slumber Talk Talk - Spirit of Eden Talking Heads - Remain in Light Jane's Addiction - Nothings Shocking Cocteau Twins - Treasure Cave In - Jupiter Anathema - Eternity Botch - We are the Romans Seefeel - Quique O'rang - Herd of Instinct Prince - Sign o' the times Neurosis - through silver in blood Ulver - Themes from William Blake David Sylvian - Gone to Earth Isis - Celestial Siouxsie and the Banshees - A Kiss in the Dreamhouse Red Harvest - Cold Dark Matter Tortoise - Millions Now Living will Never Die Techno Animal - Re entry Peter Gabriel - Passion Boredoms - Vision Creation Newsun

One of the problems that sometimes happens in music discussion forums and often in the media music magazines/websites - is the relentless pigeonholing of music that gets me .. which oftens leads to the more creative artists being forgotten about or ignored because they don't not fit into a particular genre.

So rather than focusing on the outdated and meaningless term prog rock

Indeed Simon Reynolds in his blissed out book suggested to reclaim the notion of art- rock. Rehabilitate the notion of "art rock" and raze the self limiting horizons of "power pop" (power pop as liked by that Geir dude)

look at the concept of art rock that features these characteristics

epic expansive expressive and experimental

Using this way of thinking - is The Associates Sulk album more progressive than say the first two Marillion albums - in my book ofcourse yes

Were the Associates a futuristic electro rock or a clever progressive electronic pop band. Does it matter if they are perceived as one or the other, or both. What matters is that reached out, they progressed

my dictionary defintion states of progressive

advance or development, improvement.

Take my favourite album of nineties - The Young Gods - Only Heaven - if I went to certain "progressive rock" forums/ websites and proclaimed The Young Gods as way more progressive than their obscure sub Genesis/Yes neo prog rock scene bands with daft names like e.g Spocks Beard and Anglagard - what is progressive with wanting to take most of your influences from the early 70s? thats surely retro not progressive ! (But no doubt that the prog rock mafia are so insulated, isolated and protective of their scene - and stuck in their owns, that they are unable to see this)

The Young Gods - Only heaven - for me was the most ambitious sounding album of the decade, it extended itself, improvised, reached out and explored new sonic terrain.

― DJ Martian, Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You just know there is something interesting in there because of how quickly prog is dismissed. But when I think about it, I'm not sure I much like prog on its own; I'm more interested in how it affected the more mainstream rock of the time. Like Springsteen's "Jungleland" or Meat Loaf or Boston. Wouldn't that stuff have been unthinkable without prog? I have bits of Hawkwind, Yes and Brainticket, but can only find cool bits where they do something interesting w/ sound for a minute or two. Hard for me to sit through entire tracks, for the most part.

― Mark, Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Prog rules!

― , Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Prog for me lines up with the genre of literature known as Fantasy. Tolkein fans usually like anything with a Roger Dean sleeve. Prog is sweeping in its imaginative scope, its ambitions and pretentions, but is usually considered too naff and geeky to be endorsed by the curators and educators of pop (who are happy to put stuff like punk and Motown in the Canon). So it's condemned to an eternal underground.

It has been unfairly treated by Procrusteans who think music is good when it's simple, mercenary and made by poor people but bad when it's complex, arty and made by music students. Years of indoctrination put me off listening to any Prog until fairly recently, but I now see it as a source of many interesting ideas ripe for plunder and zany cut-and- paste recontextualisation, Japanese-style.

Good prog albums? For me, early Gryphon and Gentle Giant.

― Momus, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Most canonical prog was some sort of effort at synthesis between the rock and 'classical' idioms, 'classical' often meaning music of the romantic period. Personally I think it has the most to offer where it avoided romantic music in favor of 20th-century developments like 12-tone music, and things like the stuff Sundar likes from the 40s on (things making noise and indeterminacy important components of the music). Also, where it drew from other modern movements; part of the reason krautrock is so accepted while prog is reviled, despite krautrock's tie to prog, is that krautrock drew on noise, dadaism, surrealism. You might notice that I haven't said why I think it is that these things are true; why, basically, to value krautrock's influences (or rather what it did with them) but not prog's. There's a good reason for that - I have no fucking clue. At the moment I'm thinking of Norman Mailer's essay "The White Negro" and his discussion of "cool". In some way, dadaism and all that (oh also almost forgot, minimalism, very important), they fit together with rock music because they are compatible with its cool. Wagner and cool just don't fucking mix for some reason.

Anyway, favorite prog: King Crimson in their second big phase (Red and Larks Tongues in Aspic) prefigure math-rock, only good, and something similar could probably be said for their 80s incarnation, which may remind you of Talking Heads only completely different. If you're curious about the first phase I think Epitaph, the live set, is a better place to start than the debut album, just because they fuck shit up a lot more (e.g. the 10-minute "cover" of the "Mars" section to Holst's "Planets" suite, which involves the band savaging its mellotron as best it can while repeating the main theme over a martial beat).

Also, Henry Cow. A lot of prog bands tried to improvise but coming from a jazz background I'm not all that pleased by a lot of it. Henry Cow do much better in that regard; if you like any sort of free jazz (particulary the european free improv variety) or serialist classical, their music might appeal to you. Plus they were communists.

― Josh, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It's just like any other style of music, really. Some of it's great and the rest is on the escaltor down from there. I like a few King Crimson, all Robert Wyatt, all Henry Cow and various other bits and pieces. I could never understand why people love Peter Hammill / VdgG, Yes, ELP and 99.9% of Genesis. And, finally, any talk of goblins drives me crazy.

― philT, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well I'm already have said many a word on Prog in different threads. Just add that ELO are brilliant, can't help myself there, although one could argue they were a very good popband. I also agree with DJ Martian's inclusion of Young Gods. And with the arrival of the amazing new album by Air we will witness a new chapter in the continueing adventures of Prog. Anything with goblins on it is by definition shit though.

― Omar, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Strangely enough there are some very good points lurking in the middle of Martian's essay. I don't think anyone round here apart from Glenn McDonald would seriously champion Marillion, though, and don't *all* scenes get internally protective of themselves after a while?

Omar: ELO fitted into that curious genre of "prog-pop" that also took in early Queen and Supertramp. Most of it sounds very dated now in a way that the strangely organic, complex productions of the very early 70s don't, though the shimmer of "Shine A Little Love" probably *did* teach Daft Punk and Air a few things.

For very evocative prog-related music (amazingly folky, as well) Paddy Kingsland's "The Fourth Dimension" is highly recommended, if you can find it.

― Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Led Zep verged on prog didn't they?

― dog latin, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

DJ Martian is spot on about what's REALLY progressive. Clearly, though Michael's question refers to 70's prog as we know it. I'm really uneasy with this genre. The whole fantasy/tolkein/d+d stuff is not my scene, but lyrics aren't that important so I can just about ignore them. I'm not suggesting that you can exist on a diet of meat + spuds pub rock, but the emphasis on flash musicianship, endless time changes FOR THE SAKE OF THEM and so on is what really grates.

The semi-rehabilitation of Yes is astonishing, but I'll be completely floored if ANYONE has a good word to about Emerson Lake and Palmer.

― Dr. C, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

In another world, I can imagine 'verging on prog' meaning something quite obscene.

"Errgh! You verged on prog - I'm telling Miss!"

Watching the top 10 of prog recently, I was struck by the division between the chancers who admitted their Tap-esque 70s antics were mainly just pissing around (Emerson & Palmer, Hawkwind) and the ones who were terribly po-faced about it all (Greg Lake, Rush). As for the actual music and performances, King Crimson and Gabriel-era Genesis seemed to be the most interesting.

― Nick, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Maybe it's just me, but having spent years failing to exhaust my 'simplistic' punk and Motown records I'm not sure I can cope with something as complex, imaginative and profound as English prog rock. Come on Momus, countering the NME arguments of '77 with the NME arguments of '73 is a bit old.

The idea that Fantasy is a genre of the unfettered imagination strikes me as game-playing, or at best a nice idea in theory. Post- Tolkien Fantasy and ELP-style Prog do have a lot in common in their search for validation by appealing to existing structures - look look I've written a symphony / look look I've invented a language. The demand for more complexity in prog rock also parallels the realism- thru-rules movement in 70s and 80s fantasy gaming.

― Tom, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well, Tom, I like early Gryphon for exactly the same reason I like early B*witched. They're both expanding the lexicon of musical styles available to pop (and yes, they're both pop) with daft steals from, respectively, medieval and Celtic music.

But then I also like novelty records about laughing gnomes and wombles.

― Momus, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Pop, of course, has an acquaintance with Celtic music which predates B*Witched by some considerable time.

― Tim, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

If you remain unconvinced that Prog has a geeky side take a look at Gnosis - http://gnosis2000.net/ - 13,000 prog rock albums (yes thirteen thousand!) rated on 0-15 scale. Read the FAQ to get a flavour of how it works.

I am afraid it's sort of post-punk obvious but somehow Prog is the only musical genre that could produce something as monumentally awful as Gnosis.

― Guy, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Nick: do you want to hear my story about novelty records about wombles?

― Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i'm actually not that big a prog fan. i do like _fragile_ -- it's upbeat, pretty-sounding, original, and well-constructed. some other prog manages something similar. it's usually commercial enough to have a fairly pop appeal, i.e. the good stuff is catchy and energetic.

― sundar subramanian, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Re. Gnosis. I can't believe that progressive music is the only genre to have such a site. I had seen it before, and to be honest, I can't imagine anybody trawling thru the whole thing. I suspect a lot of folks who look at it are like me, in that they are checking to see if their own releases are there (mine is!) It's also a microcosm of much music writing in general, in that little that is released is going to stand up to the "classics" in the opinion of its raters/writers. (on gnosis, I suspect this is going to be "close to the edge" and the like. In the wider world of music, well - pick yer "classics" - yawn -)

One other thing that does puzzle, and slightly annoy me - all this cobblers abt "goblins" "fantasy" etc. As U can probably imagine, I own a whole bunch of prog rekords, but I can't think of a single one that contains tolkein-type lyrics. OTOH, there were (& probaly are) loads of sub-deep-purple metal bands who do - rainbow & dio spring to mind....A bit unfair, that IMO.

x0x0

― norman fay, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

five years pass...

just seen this on PMS yahoo groups:

Well, after a long hiatus, I've decided to resume my periodic statistical comparisons of the top 100 positions at Gnosis. I have no fixed schedule for doing this, but it is kind of instructive... And I

Below is the data covering the period from September 22, 2004 to August 22, 2006, so for the last two years:

This is the CURRENT Top 100 Gnosis albums that have received at least 5 ratings (as of August 22, 2006). The FIRST number is the current ranking;

the SECOND is the rank that album 47 months ago (September 22, 2004); the [EDIT: he has got his maths wrong]

THIRD number is the difference between the two (a negative number means that the album has a lower ranking now than in 2004). When no second number is given, this is because the album had not yet been rated or released in 2004.

Please note that there are often more than one album with a given ranking, simply because they happen to have received the same average mean rating. So, for instance, there is no number 7 position as such because there are two ex aequo albums at the sixth position. That's why there is no 100th album as such, but 4 contenders for the 97th position!

So:

1 3 2 Banco del Mutuo Soccorso Darwin!
2 1 -1 Genesis Selling England by the Pound
3 2 -1 National Health Of Queues and Cures
4 5 1 Änglagård Hybris
5 8 3 Yes Close To The Edge
6 3 -3 Hatfield and the North Rotter's Club
6 10 4 PFM Per Un Amico
8 7 -1 King Crimson Larks Tongues In Aspic
9 10 1 Coltrane, John The Complete 1961 Village Vanguard
9 20 11 King Crimson In The Court Of The Crimson King
11 6 -5 Banco del Mutuo Soccorso Io Sono Nato Libero
11 22 11 PFM Storia Di Un Minuto
13 16 3 Genesis Foxtrot
14 19 5 Jethro Tull Thick As a Brick
15 14 -1 Gentle Giant In A Glass House
16 21 5 Banco del Mutuo Soccorso Banco del Mutuo Soccorso
17 14 -3 Van der Graaf Generator Pawn Hearts
18 29 11 Davis, Miles Kind of Blue
19 34 15 Coltrane, John A Love Supreme
19 18 -1 Hatfield and the North Hatfield and the North
21 13 -8 Il Balletto Di Bronzo - Ys
21 9 -12 Magma - Hhai/Live
23 27 4 King Crimson The Great Deceiver Live 1973-1974
24 12 -12 Gong You
25 - Magma K.A. (Kohntarkosz Anteria)
26 28 2 Genesis Nursery Cryme
27 39 12 Eskaton Four Visions
27 24 -3 Univers Zero Ceux Du Dehors
29 30 1 Anglagard Epilog
30 17 -13 Area Arbeit Macht Frei
30 24 -6 Gentle Giant Octopus
30 40 10 King Crimson Red
33 57 24 Magma Trilogie Theusz Hamtaahk
34 31 -3 Caravan In the Land of Grey and Pink
35 36 1 Kultivator Barndomens Stigar
35 31 -4 Soft Machine Third
37 31 -6 Bubu Anabelas
38 69 31 Gentle Giant Giant on the Box (CD + DVD)
38 48 10 Mahavishnu Orchestra The Inner Mounting Flame
38 48 10 Wyatt, Robert Rock Bottom
41 35 -6 Gentle Giant Three Friends
42 48 6 Dun Eros
43 23 -20 Area Crac!
43 46 3 Yes Fragile
45 90 45 Art Zoyd Symphonie Pour Le Jour Ou Bruleront Les Cités
45 47 2 Zappa, Frank You Can't Do This On Stage Anymore, Vol. 2
47 51 4 Mahavishnu Orchestra Birds of Fire
48 44 -4 Magma Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh
48 70 22 National Health National Health
50 37 -13 Davis, Miles Bitches Brew
50 44 -6 Van der Graaf Generator Godbluff
52 54 2 Davis, Miles The Complete Bitches Brew Sessions
52 56 4 Davis, Miles In A Silent Way
52 24 -28 Locanda Delle Fate Forse Le Lucciole Non Si Amano Piu
52 41 -11 Osanna Palepoli
52 67 15 Picchio Dal Pozzo Picchio Dal Pozzo
52 61 9 Zappa, Frank Hot Rats
58 135 77 Coltrane, John The Other Village Vanguard Tapes
59 54 -5 Museo Rosenbach Zarathustra
59 - Zorn, John Electric Masada At the Mountains of Madness
61 37 -24 Supersister Present From Nancy
62 58 -4 King Crimson Lizard
62 41 -21 Moving Gelatine Plates The World of Genius Hans
64 67 3 Univers Zero UZED
65 64 -1 Khan Space Shanty
66 52 -14 Thinking Plague In Extremis
67 53 -14 Semiramis Dedicato a Frazz
68 77 9 Coltrane, John Ascension
68 48 -20 Gentle Giant Acquiring the Taste
70 163 93 Coltrane, John A Love Supreme (Deluxe Edition)
70 77 7 Le Orme Felona e Sorona
72 76 4 Magma BBC 1974 Londres
73 60 -13 Miles Davis Live at the Fillmore East (March 7, 1970)
73 70 -3 Magma Retrospektiw Vol. 1 and 2
73 104 31 Magma Theatre Du Taur - Concert 1975 Toulouse
76 125 49 Premiata Forneria Marconi L'Isola di Niente
77 41 -36 Zamla Mammaz Manna Familjesprickor
78 99 21 Camel Mirage
78 70 -8 Caravan If I Could Do It All Over AgainŠ
78 84 6 King Crimson Starless and Bible Black
78 65 -13 Soft Machine The Peel Sessions
82 70 -12 Arti e Mestieri Tilt
82 114 32 Coltrane, John Live at the Village Vanguard
84 58 -26 Crucis Crucis
85 70 -15 King Crimson The Nightwatch
85 90 5 Mezquita Recuerdos De Mi Tierra
87 107 20 Island Pictures
88 151 63 Genesis The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
88 65 -23 Gong Angel's Egg
88 94 6 Hendrix, Jimi Electric Ladyland
91 159 68 Ornette Coleman Free Jazz: A Collective Improvisation
91 Davis, Miles The Cellar Door Sessions 1970
91 97 6 Samla Mammas Manna Klossa Knapitatet
94 163 69 Dolphy, Éric Out to Lunch
94 77 -17 Gentle Giant The Power and the Glory
96 61 -35 Happy The Man Happy The Man
97 77 -20 Agitation Free Malesch
97 Banco del Mutuo Soccorso Seguendo le Trace
97 153 56 Coltrane, John Giant Steps
97 130 33 Comus First Utterance

So what can be said at first glance from these data?

1) There is a remarkable stability for many classics such as 'Darwin',
'Selling England...'Of Queues and Cures', 'Hybris', 'You Can't Do This On
Stage Anymore, Vol. 2', etc., at the top positions. These are true
mainstays, albums that uniformly receive high ratings, even after the
addition of several new members over the interval between the two sets of
rankings. Overall, the classification is quite stable.

2) Some albums have gone up the scale quite significantly. Many jazz albums
for that matter, thus reflecting the inclusion of new reviewers with a clear
interest for these albums, perhaps :-). Examples are: Coltrane's 'Giant
Steps' (+33) and 'A Love Supreme (Deluxe)' (+93), Dolphy's 'Out to Lunch'
(+69) and Ornette Coleman's 'Free Jazz...' (+68). A few progressive albums
have also caught up quite a bit over the last 2 years: examples are
'Trilogie Theusz Hamtaahk' (+24), Gentle Giant's 'Giant on the Box' (+31),
National Health s/t (+22), Art Zoyd's 'Symphonie Pour Le Jour Ou Bruleront
Les Cités' (+45), Comus' 'First Utterance' (+33), PFM's 'L'Isola di Niente'
(+49), and quite notably, 'The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' (+69!!!).

3) Conversely, some titles have gone down significantly, some of them quite
dramatically (Down the drain...): striking examples are 'Crac!' (-20), the
Locanda (-28 - don't cry, Paul:-)), 'Present From Nancy' (-24; I always
thought that it was overestimated when I first consulted Gnosis a few years
ago...). 'Zamla Mammaz Manna' s' Familjesprickor (-36), Crucis s/t (-26) or
Happy the Man s/t (-35).

I welcome people to come up with their own comments on this list. What other trends do you see from your standpoint? Do you think Gnosis reflects well a kind of consensus among prog lovers?

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 30 August 2006 09:29 (nineteen years ago)

six months pass...

Bump for the following post, which crystallises something I wish to express about music as a whole into one digestible, lucid argument:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Art-Rock

Rather than thinking about the term prog rock, think of music in terms of being epic, expansive, expressive, and experimental: creative music that goes beyond a particular style that reaches out and extends itself using a variety of instruments, sounds and tempos, music that innovates because it is not tied up with the genre trappings of a particular scene/style

some indicative examples

Trans Am - Red Line Simple Minds - Sons of Fascination/ Sisters Feeling Call Kate Bush - Hounds of Love The Young Gods - Only Heaven Bark Psychosis - Hex Peter Murphy - Should the World Fail to Fall Apart The Gathering - How to Measure a Planet In the Woods - Omnio Tiamat - A Deeper Kind of Slumber Talk Talk - Spirit of Eden Talking Heads - Remain in Light Jane's Addiction - Nothings Shocking Cocteau Twins - Treasure Cave In - Jupiter Anathema - Eternity Botch - We are the Romans Seefeel - Quique O'rang - Herd of Instinct Prince - Sign o' the times Neurosis - through silver in blood Ulver - Themes from William Blake David Sylvian - Gone to Earth Isis - Celestial Siouxsie and the Banshees - A Kiss in the Dreamhouse Red Harvest - Cold Dark Matter Tortoise - Millions Now Living will Never Die Techno Animal - Re entry Peter Gabriel - Passion Boredoms - Vision Creation Newsun

One of the problems that sometimes happens in music discussion forums and often in the media music magazines/websites - is the relentless pigeonholing of music that gets me .. which oftens leads to the more creative artists being forgotten about or ignored because they don't not fit into a particular genre.

So rather than focusing on the outdated and meaningless term prog rock

Indeed Simon Reynolds in his blissed out book suggested to reclaim the notion of art- rock. Rehabilitate the notion of "art rock" and raze the self limiting horizons of "power pop" (power pop as liked by that Geir dude)

look at the concept of art rock that features these characteristics

epic expansive expressive and experimental

Using this way of thinking - is The Associates Sulk album more progressive than say the first two Marillion albums - in my book ofcourse yes

Were the Associates a futuristic electro rock or a clever progressive electronic pop band. Does it matter if they are perceived as one or the other, or both. What matters is that reached out, they progressed

my dictionary defintion states of progressive

advance or development, improvement.

Take my favourite album of nineties - The Young Gods - Only Heaven - if I went to certain "progressive rock" forums/ websites and proclaimed The Young Gods as way more progressive than their obscure sub Genesis/Yes neo prog rock scene bands with daft names like e.g Spocks Beard and Anglagard - what is progressive with wanting to take most of your influences from the early 70s? thats surely retro not progressive ! (But no doubt that the prog rock mafia are so insulated, isolated and protective of their scene - and stuck in their owns, that they are unable to see this)

The Young Gods - Only heaven - for me was the most ambitious sounding album of the decade, it extended itself, improvised, reached out and explored new sonic terrain.

DJ Martian on Tuesday, 24 April 2001 00:00 (5 years ago)

― unfished business, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 20:37 (eighteen years ago)

now I want that Young Gods album

― unfished business, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 20:37 (eighteen years ago)

I saw The Young Gods on that tour. Fucking awesome.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 20:49 (eighteen years ago)

Have you ever actually heard any Anglagard, Louis?

― Pashmina, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:16 (eighteen years ago)

i know a girl called angharad.

that is as close as i have come.

― unfished business, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:24 (eighteen years ago)

why, are they secretly awesome?

― unfished business, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:25 (eighteen years ago)

See a big problem here is Martian's taking the word "Progressive" at face value. For our purposes Prog is maybe the better word because it avoids some of the connotations of progression and it's easier to see that it refers to a genre, not a manifesto. It's a bit like saying "Why does everyone call T.S. Eliot a Modernist oh noes his shit is eighty years old". Words are cruelly susceptible to multiple meanings. Now we can all agree that genres and pigeonholes are A Bad Thing and why can't we just dig the music, maaaan. But if genre labels have any point at all, it's to try and describe certain types of similarity between artists. If you use a label prescriptively, you fall into gatekeeper hell and will spend eternity arguing over whether Helloween are thrash or speed metal. But most of us don't use genre labels like that, we use them in an informal way to say "hi dere mellotron and twenty minute song-suites". Trying to pretend that the name of a genre is literal only leads to head-scratching and saying things that are a bit silly, really.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:29 (eighteen years ago)

but 'prog' also unfairly associates some undeserving, excellent acts with wizard-and-witchcraft shitty OMG I HAS A XYLOPHONE ugh-ness. it's probably best to use the term, but only very discriminately.

― unfished business, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:33 (eighteen years ago)

Helloween were cack.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:34 (eighteen years ago)

Helloween was alright! I kinda like that spidery thin 80s guitar sound.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:35 (eighteen years ago)

I was wrong about Anglagard in 2001, in 2003 I listened to both of their 1990s albums via Progressive Soundscapes Radio and was impressed.

The type of prog rock i don't like is stuff like: Flower Kings and Spock's Beard - so bland and boring.

― djmartian, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:43 (eighteen years ago)

Nah Jim, Helloween were awful.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:52 (eighteen years ago)

The best word is symphonic rock. And, well, yes, that is only part of prog, but it was the best part of prog, as the symphonic rock bands managed to combine musical complexity and instrumental virtuosity with an obvious sense of melody and harmony in a great way.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 02:10 (eighteen years ago)

wizard-and-witchcraft shitty

Examples, please?

Anglagard weren't secretly awesome, they were just flat out awesome, one of the best bands who ever existed. "Epilog" is a fantastic album.

― Pashmina, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:27 (eighteen years ago)

Also, while I agree that Flower Kings and Spock's Beard suck horribly, the "stuff like" bit bothers me, b/c "stuff like flower kings and spocks beard" could easily include IQ, who are consistently pretty fucking great! I don't think SB ad FK suck b/c of the type of music they play, Flower Kings suck b/c their singer is awful, and they have a tendency to waffle on endlessly. Spock's Beard suck because their lyrics and tunes are sappy and trite, they don't rock, ever, and a bunch of their earlier stuff at least is borderline plagiarised off '70's Yes and Genesis records. (SB were so bad that GOD HIMSELF told the singer to knock it off!)

― Pashmina, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:26 (eighteen years ago)

Pash on the gold pieces. We must have IQ/neo-Prog thread soon when I don't have to rush off to work.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:35 (eighteen years ago)

examples include Pure Reason Revolution, Dream Theater, and any other band who value 'concept' or 'instrumentation' ahead of songcraft and musical experience. mine was a somewhat blanket ad hominem, i'll admit.

anglagard have me interested, however. as long as they're not yawnsome revivalists but actual innovators (or if they have indeed written a load of fantastic songs), i'll give 'em a go.

― unfished business, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:00 (eighteen years ago)

most recent progressive rock discovery: Manogurgeil - Canterbury style music from Finland

Manogurgeil

― djmartian, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:02 (eighteen years ago)

so, martian, i asked you on the white willow thread i started, but maybe you didn't see it: did you ever hear their last album? i think you would really like it.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:30 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, I proclaimed on my blog last year that White Willow were carrying the torch of trip-rock invented by The Gathering on How to Measure a Planet?

Best track: Dusk City

― djmartian, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:39 (eighteen years ago)

oh good, i'm glad. i should have figured you had heard it and liked it. definitely one of my favorite albums of 2006.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:41 (eighteen years ago)

Spock's Beard don't suck. Rather, they are the kind of recent band who are not afraid to embrace completely the good old symphonic rock sound of the 70s. A sound long lost since most of the bands started playing AOR towards the end of that decade.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:46 (eighteen years ago)

my fave prog album of the year is probably the new album by Virgin Black. even though they aren't really prog. Or the new Dodheimsgard. who really aren't prog. but who are, nonetheless, extremely progressive. Virgin Black are actually putting out a trilogy this year: *Requiem - Pianissimo*, *Requiem - Mezzo Forte*, & *Requiem - Fortissimo*. which is pretty prog of them.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:48 (eighteen years ago)

geir, you would love that white willow album. *Signal To Noise*. i don't understand why they aren't your favorite band.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:49 (eighteen years ago)

Well, I still consider the 70s the one and only main decade for prog. Today's prog - even Spock's Beard - doesn't sound entirely like prog should.

And btw. I don't really like the "progressive" term. I prefer to call it symphonic rock, as I don't see it as a goal for the music to "progress", plus it wasn't particularly "progressive" to begin with either as it was hugely influenced by classical music. So Symphonic Rock it is.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:06 (eighteen years ago)

listen then:
White Willow

White Willow is Norway's foremost exponent of art-rock or symphonic rock or whatever you want to call it.

― djmartian, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:11 (eighteen years ago)

Skipping 44 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Try some punk rock!

― Tom D., Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:28 (eighteen years ago)

I don't listen to music by genre, I play each artist on its merits. Bands like Yes use their solos to progress and elevate a song, bands like ELP use theirs to show off. Yes are brilliant, ELP are absolute, unremitting shite.

― unfished business, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

In comparing this to Kinkade, I'm not suggesting that they accomplish the same ends, or work from the same mindset. They don't. But I am suggesting that they're both kind of aesthetically unsophisticated. They don't understand the value of restraint, and they don't seem to understand that the more things you try to do at one, the more you risk looking ridiculous.

And maybe, more tellingly, neither seems particularly afraid of looking ridiculous. In that sense, perhaps they're both liberated by their lack of defensive "sophistication". Sophistication, after all, often consists of littel more complex rules about what one shouldn't do. It can be a fearful and limiting set of reactionary prejudices. If Kinkade were more sophisticated, he probably wouldn't be so popular. And if Ulver were more sophisticated, they would be so surprising.

― Pye Poudre, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:37 (eighteen years ago)

P.S. The bit about bass solos and spaceman costumes was joek. Hee.

― Pye Poudre, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:38 (eighteen years ago)

Damn students!

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:40 (eighteen years ago)

Aha, I see what you mean. I think I've been taught the incorrect meaning of the word 'sophistication' all this time. If I've got you right, sophistication != complication, but it = a sort of elevated common-sense, a self-aware sensitivity which ensures a pristine condition of living. Discretion is perhaps a better word, non?

― unfished business, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

Discretion is perhaps a better word, non?

Something you know all about, of course!

― Tom D., Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:44 (eighteen years ago)

:-P

Incidentally, most of my very favourite albums would I think to most ears fall under Pye Poudre's description: wonderfully evocative, spectacular and original, but ghastly in their lurid lack of 'taste', Mansun's 'Six' and Cardiacs' 'Sing To God' being very good examples.

Fuck 'taste'.

― unfished business, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

Very well said. In an aesthetic sense, sophistication = efficiency, restraint & wit more than complexity for its own sake (though sophisticated things can be very complex). Discretion is a fine analog. Giving the impression of total awareness and effortless grace. A quality of superiority that is based on what cannot be seen, rather than what is made obvious to everyone.

― Pye Poudre, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:48 (eighteen years ago)

Some music I love, of course, succeeds through what you term as 'sophistication', such as Talk Talk or Hood, but this quality is arguably even harder to attain successfully. Failed attempts at sophistication are worse than failed attempts at complexity.

― unfished business, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

Failed attempt at sophistication = Coldplay
Failed attempt at complexity = The Fiery Furnaces

try and guess which of those is a guilty pleasure of mine

― unfished business, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

I think that's true. If you're trying to appear sophisticated, failures of taste or execution seem much much more glaring, simply because the aesthetics of sophistication will not tolerate failure. If you're not worried about seeming foolish or "out of step", you've got a lot more room for error.

― Pye Poudre, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

I like the Firey Furnaces, too.

― Pye Poudre, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

Failed attempt at ~~sophistication~~ everything = Coldplay

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 22 March 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

I would also argue that the Ulver LP shows great sophistication at certain points. The tearjerking ambience of 'Blinded By Blood' and 'Last Call', the deliberate, slow re-build towards the end of the (stunning) 'Christmas', these things are not just born out of 'throw it all in and see what we get'; there is genuine distinction on show. In the greatest records, perhaps, sophistication of compositiory minutiae is combined with a fearless overall aesthetic of 'this could go anywhere' to create an experience that both thrills and comforts.

― unfished business, Thursday, 22 March 2007 17:08 (eighteen years ago)

@ Tom D, I stand corrected on which of the Damned's albums was produced by Nick Mason. I already knew they wanted Barrett, and I'm not exactly suprised they hated the result.
I thought Hamill was the singer of VDGG? Thanks for keeping me right anyway.

― Richard Graham, Thursday, 22 March 2007 17:10 (eighteen years ago)

He also had solo albums. That John Lydon was a fan of.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 22 March 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

His solo albums are (can be) pretty different, tho there's obv. overlap as he wrote (almost) everything

― Tom D., Thursday, 22 March 2007 17:12 (eighteen years ago)

[i]"In the greatest records, perhaps, sophistication of compositiory minutiae is combined with a fearless overall aesthetic of 'this could go anywhere'...[i]"

OTM. I think Ulver tip back and forth on that point, but there's enough good stuff to make up for the moments when they go a little bit too far overboard.

― Pye Poudre, Thursday, 22 March 2007 17:17 (eighteen years ago)

EPP (errors-per-post ratio) is really creeping up today...

― Pye Poudre, Thursday, 22 March 2007 17:19 (eighteen years ago)

x-post but Dada is right. His solo stuff is quite different. Especially "Nadir's Big Chance".

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 23 March 2007 00:59 (eighteen years ago)

so, worth a look?

― unfished business, Friday, 23 March 2007 01:03 (eighteen years ago)

i'll sort you out tomorrow night louis.

― Noodle Vague, Friday, 23 March 2007 01:08 (eighteen years ago)

(but yeah PH is kinda mental violence vs VdGG's sonic violence.)

― Noodle Vague, Friday, 23 March 2007 01:10 (eighteen years ago)

Both well worth checking out.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 23 March 2007 01:12 (eighteen years ago)

VDGG not really my cuppa sorry to say, apart from the bit in the middle of Man-Erg ("Am I really me???? Am I someone else? How can I get free????? How can I get help????). That bit turns my handle!

― Richard Graham, Friday, 23 March 2007 03:04 (eighteen years ago)

"I like Rush (up until about 1983 anyway), just thought I'd say that as nobody else seems to like them round here"

you would be wronger than wrong to think that here. there is much rush love to be found on ilm.

― scott seward, Friday, 23 March 2007 03:39 (eighteen years ago)

unless you just meant this thread. i haven't read the whole thing. is there rush-bashing on this thread?

― scott seward, Friday, 23 March 2007 03:43 (eighteen years ago)

I welcome people to come up with their own comments on this list. What other trends do you see from your standpoint? Do you think Gnosis reflects well a kind of consensus among prog lovers?

I've heard about 85-90% of the albums listed. I think the list does well in identifying what are all great albums by a general sort of consensus...but still you definitely have to take such a listing with a grain of salt and a bit of perspective. I notice there is not even one album listed by ELP--regardless of what one feels about their music, surely one of the Top 4 bands most identified/linked with this genre--while "Kind of Blue" is listed at #18? Suggests some interpretive limitations as to what the list is trying to put across. Additionally, I also think the Italian prog, much though I like the albums listed, is a bit overrepresented on the list and over-touted in the ratings.

― Joe, Friday, 23 March 2007 04:06 (eighteen years ago)

I hope Louis picked up some Young Gods albums.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 23 March 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)

No Rush-bashing on this thread, *but* someone saying they don't like 'em pretty near the top, and then no mention after that. I must say Rush are a bit of a guilty pleasure for me, and sometimes they really do it for me, other times I can't get away with them, yet other times they raise a wry smile. I was mad about them from the age of about 11 to 15, and then disowned them for nearly 20 years because they are so completely and obviously uncool. Like their fans. And like me, unfortunately. So sue me!

― Richard Graham, Friday, 23 March 2007 15:45 (eighteen years ago)

oh f&@#% i knew i'd forgotten something

NEXT TIME, I SWEAR

― unfished business, Friday, 23 March 2007 15:47 (eighteen years ago)

Incidentally, the album that is ranked dead last on the Gnosis database (Double Helix) is a delicious marvel of excruciatingly bad music.

― Joe, Friday, 23 March 2007 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

I found an mp3 of that Double Helix album, I really want to hear the whole thing now! Maybe not the whole thing actually.

― Matt #2, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:10 (eighteen years ago)

Louis> add Guapo to your list.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

guapo, gotcha

― unfished business, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:44 (eighteen years ago)

Try Magma instead, they did it first and better.

― Matt #2, Friday, 23 March 2007 21:58 (eighteen years ago)

Magma are great too.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 23 March 2007 23:39 (eighteen years ago)

Allëlüïa! Allëlüïa! Allëlüïa!

MAGMA

― Joe, Saturday, 24 March 2007 12:31 (eighteen years ago)

DJ Martian: "The Young Gods - Only heaven - for me was the most ambitious sounding album of the decade, it extended itself, improvised, reached out and explored new sonic terrain."

I saw the Young Gods back in '91 or so. Great fun. I had to download Only Heaven because to my dismay I had sold it. It's hard to wrap my head around the idea that it could be the top album of the 90s, I think because the whole industrial thing became tainted. By 1994 in Chicago, industrial was so, so overplayed in all the clubs. I liked KMFDM and earlier Ministry when they were funny, but all the bastard rip-offs of NiN got so tedious. Though Young Gods were a great band, they were guilty by association and I got sick of them. The album is good, but still sounds dated to me after re-listening to it for the first time in eight years. But maybe it's just my bias against all sounds associated with industrial.

― Fastnbulbous, Monday, 2 April 2007 19:33 (eighteen years ago)

Rush are great! They've always been great. I hate how lots of people say that liking Rush is a "guilty pleasure." What's there to be guilty about? They're talented musicians, and they write excellent songs, acquired-taste vocals and lyrics notwithstanding. I love their 70s stuff, I love some of their 80s stuff (A Show of Hands proves that they wrote some of their best tunes during their new wave phase), and I think their 90s stuff is even quite good. Roll the Bones is one of my favorite records. I am completely unabashed in my love for that band, and I care not if that makes me uncool. (Not that anyone in a prog rock discussion can even pretend to be cool)

― Jeff Treppel, Monday, 2 April 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)

one year passes...

So the certanty is I can get no air,
Getting nowhere at all,
Open-ended and suspended one by one,
In the slipstream,
And Harvest hold the horrbag,
Emotion starts to lag,
With panache I keep a-crashing,
Through the sky,
No compassion have I.

Kick a kiss of superstition and I cry,
"Just a guide or I throw
All the panic I can muster,
Threatening to the cluster";
The hangman's whore so obvious,
Discretion's such a drag,
But I know his apparatus snows my mind,
When it gets too far out.

Guard the ribs and fall,
I long to catch my breath, condemm it all
As the number I become,
They count me out a volunteer.

See how they run in silence up the belfry steps,
Each unaffected by the sight of the blistered skin;
Someone to calm me till the pounding in my head stops,
Over the tens of thousands find no way out of in:
Through the pandemonium, My heart is beating like a drum,
Barricaded in here, crawling's getting creepier,
With my head in my hands, all the heaven in my heart.

Get me out of here, let me get away,
Let me go from here, get me out away,
Get me out of here, let me get away,
Let me out of here, let me go today

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 04:01 (seventeen years ago)

pretentious

― Autumn Almanac, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 04:04 (seventeen years ago)

Not heard them

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 04:05 (seventeen years ago)

Outside the cage I see my Brother John,
He turns his head so slowly round.
I cry out Help! before he can be gone,
And he looks at me without a sound.
And I shout out 'John please help me!'
But he does not even want to try to speak.
I'm helpless in my violent rage
And a silent tear of blood dribbles down his cheek,
And I watch him turn away and leave the cage.
My little runaway.

(Raindrops keep falling on my head, they keep falling on my...)

In a trap, feel a strap
Holding still. Pinned for kill.
Chances narrow that I'll make it,
In the cushioned straight-jacket.
Just like 22nd Street,
They got me by my neck and feet.
Pressures building, can't take more.
My headaches charge, earaches roar.
In this pain
Get me out of this pain.

If I could change to liquid,
I could fill the cracks up in the rocks.
I know that I am solid
And I am my own bad luck.

― Trayce, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 04:37 (seventeen years ago)

Now THAT is a great prog song.

― Trayce, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 04:37 (seventeen years ago)

(mind you watching Phil Collins sing it, kind of loses something for me).

― Trayce, Tuesday, 2 September 2008 04:37 (seventeen years ago)

two years pass...

Gentle Giant Octopus
V.D.G.G. Pawn Hearts or the live stuff from '77ish
Semiramis Dedicato a Frazz
Baletto Di Bronzo Ys
Genesis Nursery Cryme (cos I can pretend it's a one off, The lineup had just shifted & I'm not much into what came after it. Though Lamb might be ok)
Magma M.D.K & Kohntarkhosz
most of Henry Cow especially around '75
King Crimson Nightwatch/Great Deceiver
P.F.M 1st 2
Albion Country Band Battle Of The Field (verges on the Kosmische to my ears)
Gaa Auf Der Bahn Zum Uranus (heavy influence from West Coast US psych too)
Aphrodites Child
East Of Eden Mercator Projected
Fuzzy Duck
Atomic Rooster Death Walks Behind You
Writing On The Wall Power Of The Picts
Indian Summer
Tonton Macoute
Gnidrolog In Spite Of Harry's Toenail
Raw Material Time Is

― Stevolende, Tuesday, 8 March 2011 22:28 (fourteen years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bMHN45BxfM

― corey, Tuesday, 8 March 2011 22:38 (fourteen years ago)

Gentle Giant Octopus
Genesis Nursery Cryme (cos I can pretend it's a one off, The lineup had just shifted & I'm not much into what came after it. Though Lamb might be ok)

this, also

Gentle Giant The Power and the Glory
King Crimson Larks' Tongues + Red
ELO ELO 2

― Head goes goes goes (Schlafsack), Tuesday, 8 March 2011 22:45 (fourteen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.