Thurston goes to Helvete: Thurston Moore on Black metal

As a fan of Sonic Youth's earlier, noisier records who listens to more BM these days, I was fascinated to read this interview with Thurston, posted at the Decibel site:

http://decibelmagazine.com/Content.aspx?ncid=305305

He seems to have a pretty good take on it as a subculture, and there are a few good stories there. I'll be checking out his recommendations.

Haha, nice to see the story behind that Venom banter single. I always liked that because it made them seem like a band that shorter songs than Wire and the Minutemen.

hipster talks about black metal, film at 11

C'mon, the thought of Striborg breakdancing made my day!

i'm just funnin ya

what a faggot, go listen to your stupid sonic youth shit and leave the true black metal to those who don't deserve to listen to it.

That Venom 7" http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/HT/Venom_-_Live_at_City_Gardens.mp3

I esp like the bit about Bone Awl / 'Cross The Breeze', I can see how that would work as a connecting point

http://i44.tinypic.com/2a8jj8i.jpg

some of dude's why-he-likes-what-he-likes is solid but this here:

I really drew the line between black metal and death metal. Death metal was obviously more of a technically proficient kind of playing, which I had no interest in. I wanted to hear music by people who had no desire to impress with any kind of traditional, skilled playing. I do appreciate hearing riff masters, but they’re a dime a dozen.

is several different kinds of Rong

hipster talks about black metal, film at 11

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, June 3, 2009 10:41 AM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark

that's a lotta venom shirts for a guy i've never seen wearing a venom shirt

pretty sure thurston doesn't have red hair

in fairness I know lots of metal dudes who buy & collect shirts but don't wear them - diminishes the collectibility

in the book "Swedish death metal" there's a funny quote by Moore ca 90 on death metal, i just can't find it right now. he basically sums it up as "arrhhhh" iirc

i dunno about calling TM a "hipster". i mean, he is, but...

the metal dudes I know never play their vinyls either

pretty sure thurston doesn't have red hair

my bad it's ana marie cox

in fairness I know lots of metal dudes who buy & collect shirts but don't wear them - diminishes the collectibility

these dudes are lame and not metal

so i have decreed

if anyone wants to come see my 1991 napalm death longsleeve it'll be making an in-store appearance at vintage vinyl in edison nj this saturday, btw.

Confusion is Sex is as bleak and atmospheric as any Burzum.

It's sad that someone can stand up and talk about their interests in multiple genres, and then get shot at for simply liking music.

To be fair as Thurston explains himself in the interview even some of the black metal artists don't want anyone to like their music, so it shouldn't be surprising when the comments on the Decibal article can sometimes veer towards "LEAVE METAL ALONE HIPSTER" especially considering he completely wrote off death metal in it. That said, I really hope that as I get older I do it the way Thurston seems to be doing it -- staying completely interested in what he always loved and continuing to evolve and find new things to love, and not in that desperate "I like what's cool, look at me I still got it" way that sometimes happens.

Sanctuary should have licensed that Venom Live 7" from him when they put together Venom's MMV box a few years back.

Seems to me tho that the % of noise dudes who care about metalheads INFILTRATING THEIR SCENE is a lot smaller than the other way... maybe I move in the wrong circles to pick up on that sort of thing, I dunno

xp not gonna look this up right now but vaguely recalling Venom being quoted as thinking the EP! single was lame and unfunny

"But Newcastle Brown Ale really WILL knock you on your ass!"

Posted 6/3/2009 12:36 PM by Troo Metalhead

It's disgusting that Black Metal is now being listened to by people who are not meant to hear it. Metal should ONLY be listened to by true metalheads who only listen to metal,certainly not hipsters from indie bands. Metal 4 Metalheads Only!

Posted 6/3/2009 1:03 PM by Charles Manson

To fuckposers and troo metalhead - you are cocks. Clearly the fact that a so-called 'hipster' knows your genre better than you do and has a music taste that is further sighted than you has terrified you into lashing out like pricks. Black metal can be an influential and interesting form of music without being dragged down by fucktards like you who want it to become stagnant and unprogressive. Sonic Youth fucking influenced BM bands you tards, read the interview. I wish all you people who have to define people as hipsters just because they have a wide ranging musical taste and don't subscribe to your stupid elitism would just fuck off and die. Neanderthals.

Posted 6/3/2009 1:07 PM by Grk!

I'm sure Troo's intent was parodic.

Posted 6/3/2009 1:08 PM by Charles Manson

OK my bad, sorry for the rage. But if anyone does come on here and think that - read above. Rant over. God I hate elitist metalheads.

charles manson OTM tho i find something about elitist metalhead fucktards kind of endearing

I find it annoying

The Venom banter single is one the the greatest things I have ever heard. Heard it once on CBC Rario back in the early 90s, and it took more than a decade for me to track it down.

It was a gig they did with Black Flag in New York. Black Flag was opening, and most of the audience was there for them—it was all hardcore kids and punk rockers. Henry Rollins or someone recorded Venom and then edited out all the music and just left all the between-song banter.

over 20 years on and I'm still pissed that I missed this show, it was in '86, they played city gardens in jersey actually... my ride flaked on me!

Taunting a ravening Black Flag audience with a cold bottle of Nukey Brown? Classic!

We only did like 300 copies because we figured no one would buy it. We just sort of did it as a goof. But it was the fastest-selling, most successful record Ecstatic Peace! has ever released.

Most successful record on Ecstatic Peace = it sold 300 copies?

Yeah I was wondering that... maybe the first bit is his yardstick for the second bit *shrug*

maybe he means the most artistically successful

or aesthetically successful

It's disgusting that indie rock is now being listened to by people who are not meant to hear it. indie rock should ONLY be listened to by true hipsters who only listen to indie rock,certainly not metal heads from blackmetal bands. INDIE 4 HIPSTERS Only!

i actually have kind of the opposite view of thurston, as far as black metal and death metal goes. seems like he's singling out the technicality of death metal as the only thing that people like about it, which certainly isn't the case for me. there are two things i love about death metal, firstly that it's really fun to imagine it being played by monsters. secondly, that it's the closest thing (aside from grindcore which i also love and for the same reasons) you can get to sticking an automatic drill into your eardrum and turning it on. black metal, on the other hand, it's cool that it's melodic and all, but often the vocals are just too cheesy. i got the new wolves in the throne room record though, and i've been liking it.

Hey, lighten up dudes! Here's one of Uncle Thurston's top tips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUn6fzY3kM0

Thurston being into Black Metal isn't too surprising. I kind of got into it (and I'm a total noob when it comes to the genre) from the HC/punk/pigfuck/noise angle as well. I think I went from Venom to Bathory to Darkthrone and Burzum and I've been randomly rooting around since. It seems like a logical conclusion.

Here's one for y'all to bet on: does KIM like black metal?

Does COCO like black metal?

well, the thing is thurston doesn't sound like he's really explored death metal much at all. it does have a somewhat higher technical-capability point of entry...sorta...sometimes...but the best death metal albums are masterpieces of mood & atmosphere, to my ears more complex than the atmospherics of the bedroom black metallers who often tend to be shooting for the same atmosphere you know? like, autopsy, that's some of the most intensely dripping cellar groove, but then there's gorguts on considered dead and the erosion of sanity which is more like a very big empty cold concrete stockyard feel, and then Death & early Morbid Angel has this off-in-space vibe that to me is unmissiable...that they use their technical proficiency to conjure this vibe (instead of relying on effects boxes or stuff further down the signal chain, not that there's anything wrong with that either) is to me every bit as inspiring as a guy who constructs the vibe out of rawer/less study-intensive materials. you know? and there are death metal bands today who're working up the crazy atmospherics, too...dead congregation for one, there's plenty more

tl;dr early gorguts fucking slays, death metal underrated by artsy guys

BLEAAGH TRICK BLEAAGH

whiney I think 1,000,000 youtube views are just one drunken self-taped video away here

"death metal underrated by artsy guys"

it makes them feel sad that they never learned how to play an instrument.

"early gorguts fucking slays"

I know nothing of death metal -- which gorguts album would you recommend?

do you want gorguts for arty guys or gorguts for gorguts guys?

I've always hated death metal but love entombed. So maybe thats a good place to start.

"When word hit Decibel HQ that he’d been getting deep into black metal lately—so much that the band’s forthcoming album, The Eternal, is rumored to bear a whisper of the influence"

NOT!
(though i wish it would)

I think before we get totally lost over awesome death metal albums, I have to add that all the black metal stuff Thurston talked about fucking ruled.

(i do like some new black metal. i certainly listen to enough of it. but the stuff i like doesn't excite me like a cool new tech-death or grind album does when i like it.)

"thurston more"?????

is this make-a-pretend name of some type?

may be this alternative rock and roll types like black metal now it is shurely because of christian weakling plot to infiltrate the center of our scene?

HA!

unlucky for them them, the true meaning of blackness IS there IS no center for them to penetrate, only a tarpit from which there bones shall succumb.

HA!

pretty sure thurston doesn't have red hair

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 3 June 2009 16:47 (Yesterday)

pretty sure you're rong

Love this article! Thanks for posting!!

seriously... breakdancing Striborg!

I like grindcore more than death metal or black metal, does that make me a hipster or a reactionary anti-hipster?

"There's so much shitty rap in New York it's unbelievable. There's rappers on every street corner 'round where I live. It's such indigenous music and it's one of the few things that was actually born in New York City, albeit indirectly, out of the prisons. It's interesting, I can relate to it on the level of walking around living here and dealing with people on the streets. But it's really an in-crowd thing. Either you're a B-boy or you're not. I'm a six foot white kid with red hair and freckles. I'm not a B-boy. I wear converse sneekers. I can't afford to wear Addidas and Filas. Just the same I've got a whole load of John Coltrane records but I don't look like him. I don't look like a punk rocker either, yet I think a lot of punk rock. In fact I don't look like anything. I keep trying to cultivate this image of what we call flannel punk, where you wear sneakers and flannel shirts. Steve Albini (of Rapeman) tried to cultivate it but I don't think anybody noticed, 'cos he's got such a funny looking hat. He's way too weird and he's gonna get his ass kicked some day."

oh yeah like i can trust some 1985 interview you found on the internet about what color hair thurston moore has--sheesh

find pix of his pubes to settle this once and for all

Altars and Blessed over Domination anyday Nate

If you were a drummer or a production snob, you might feel differently John. Domination is their hookiest and that's a strike for or against depending on your perspective.

Either way, Morbid is really the quintessential Death Metal band and I'm looking forward to their next release.

Red metal

Surely Thurston and Steve Albini weren't the ones who cultivated "flannel punk".

Replacements were way more flannel than those two dorks.

Didn't Thurston steal the flannel thing from Watt, who in turn stole it from John Fogerty?

It all starts with CCR.

Reading it again I assume Moore's just being flippant. I know Mike Watt was sporting it back in the day. Die Kreuzen and a lot of the mid-western punks surely "cultivated" it. It mostly reminded me of these great YouTube clips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUZN70N6oWc&feature=related

and the fact that a lot of Die Kreuzen vocals are black metally.

If only Watt had decided to dress like Walter Becker instead.

whadya mean?
http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/060308/104946__steely_l.jpg

awwwww shit

interesting views by TM. he isn't simply namedropping - he's also describing his responses to the music. which is essentially the best way to go about it - experience the music and let your own impressions run their course.

Are you guys seriously debating whether or not Thurston is a readhead? Has it come to that?

A GINGER who ISN'T THAT INTERESTED IN DEATH METAL! Outrage!

more discussion of gorguts, less discussion of thurston fuckin' moore

and the fact that a lot of Die Kreuzen vocals are black metally.

i always thought this too!

big banging dumb stupid dance music that appeals to metal heads

one of the reasons i got into dance music was because it doesn't have fucking moshpits. DNW

― lex pretend, Thursday, 4 June 2009 13:50 (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

any black metal techno out there? Scott? anyone?

Vas Djifrens otm. Pål Útlendi to thread.

thurston didn't namedrop byzantum so his knowledge of tru kvlt is highly suspect

any black metal techno out there? Scott? anyone?

Until Fenriz makes it this NOISECORE: S/D is about the closest I've heard of anyone trying such a hybrid

oh and that Norwegian beardo guy Skatebard stealing a Celtic Frost songtitle for what I can only assume is his own amusement

and Reverend Bizarre and Mr Velcro Fastener covering each other's songs

i was sad that on the ulver remix album only merzbow used their metal stuff as source material.

Has anyone considered the possibility that he dyed his hair? It was light/medium brown when I saw him.

there was a thread on dance-metal recently

did chuck list some disco acts?

Black Metal Techno? Not as we know it, Jim, but I'd say that Darkspace are definitely techno-influenced in the way they use keyboards and build beats and riffs, then break them down.

the death metal album that's really been doing it for me lately is obituary - the end complete.

and speaking of dumb east coast hardcore (which I also love... kind of), obituary started sounding a hell of a lot like it circa this record! I mean, listen to "killing time"! could be a madball song. (lolz.)

also, I've found that one of my biggest impediments to grooving on death metal albums is that almost all of the classics are produced by scott burns! I mean, I can get over it if the music is cool, but his production just sounds so flat, dull, and lifeless!

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e215/joehollow/obituary/obituaryheavybanner.gif

what do black metal fans think of bone awl

they are my new favorite band

bone awl are funny. in a good way.

Bone Awl is pretty cool. Seem more like a punk band with some black metal stylings though don't they?

yeah, they are punks. they are fun punks. they get their strength thru oi!

it's like "hey there's black metal in my punk rock"

mostly the vocals and some of the droney fast moments are black metallish

I <3 them

I wonder if thurston is going to go see them when they play allston

bone awl are like ildjarn perfected. actually been listening to them again lately because they keep getting mentioned on ILM, their latest 7" thing is really good.

for some reason "black metal dudes" always seem to think they're black metal-meets-oi! i would like that combination to actually happen sometime.

oh and i finally saw pics of bone awl playing live, they look like actualy human metal dudes or something. i was expecting something much scarier.

I was kinda hoping they had goatheads and cloven hands

but I wouldn't mind if bone awl got mentioned on every ILM thread for a while

Mayhem tonight was one of the most metal things I've ever seen. Billy Anderson was doing sound... which made a huge difference. Attila was in full on mummy on Tatooine set regalia. Unbelievably tight and unholy set.

By the end, I hardly cared that Marduk didn't make it.

Can't really see anything Oi! about Bone Awl (unless that nazi rumour is true) they're more like really raw hardcore with black metal vox.

i love sonic youth obviously and have a great deal of respect for thurston moore, but i'm not quite sure what he's trying to achieve with some of the misinformed shit he's harping on about here. surely it's completely superfluous to refer to the oppression of black metal communities by church and state as "right wing"? it's not like BM ideology isn't even further lodged to the right.