"Play me my POLL" - The "Nursery Cryme" poll

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Poll Results

OptionVotes
The Musical Box 15
The Return of the Giant Hogweed 12
The Fountain of Salmacis 4
For Absent Friends 3
Harold the Barrel 3
Seven Stones 2
Harlequin 2


Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 10:28 (sixteen years ago)

I guess "The Musical Box" will walk this, so I vote for "The Fountain Of Salmacis" instead, because it's equally good. Also love "The Return Of The Giant Hogweed" and "Harlequin".

Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 10:29 (sixteen years ago)

I dunno I rathr like Harold the Barrel, myself!

freeway onramps for arms, and a heart as black as coal (Trayce), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 10:43 (sixteen years ago)

Again prefer the sum to the parts but "Musical Box" is far and away the best part. That track + the cover have haunted me since I was a kid.

Westwood Ho (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 10:50 (sixteen years ago)

Of all the Genesis back catalogue, this is the one I come back to most often.

My problem here is I think you are all correct, but I'm going to vote for Seven Stones for the same reason Geir is voting for Salmacis. But it could be any of 6 of the 7 tracks (and I even like the one I missed out (For Absent Friends - it just doesn't stand up to the rest.)

Actually, I've just changed my mind - I'm voting for Harlequin for the same reason Geir is voting for Salmacis.

Guilty_Boksen, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 11:40 (sixteen years ago)

IMHO they still hadn't really got going with this album. Foxtrot was the one where it all came together.

anagram, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 12:05 (sixteen years ago)

Harold The Barrel

snoball, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 12:10 (sixteen years ago)

IMHO they still hadn't really got going with this album. Foxtrot was the one where it all came together.

Kind of agree, although I love "Nursery Cryme" too. "Foxtrot" was still a great leap in the right direction, even from there.

Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 12:28 (sixteen years ago)

if everyone else is going for The Musical Box i'm gonna vote for The Return of the Giant Hogweed

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 14:37 (sixteen years ago)

I can see why someone would vote for Harold the Barrel, but Musical Box is particularly striking. Just kinda puts its teeth in you right away and tears.

Imagine being an elevator (Bimble), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 15:58 (sixteen years ago)

So great:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFBY4dvoISc

Sundar, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 15:59 (sixteen years ago)

("Harold" brings me joy too.)

Sundar, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 15:59 (sixteen years ago)

Best bit of "Harold" is the way the middle 8 suddenly stretches out and soars after all the pantomime-y franticness before it.

Westwood Ho (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 16:01 (sixteen years ago)

This album is a shade stronger than Foxtrot for me, btw. Maybe because it's more inward looking or maybe cos there's a few less comedy voices which are ALWAYS A BAD IDEA GUYS. Looking at you, Phil Collins Doing Mockney.

Westwood Ho (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 16:03 (sixteen years ago)

That youtube clip is epic, thanks for that. Is it from a longer concert film, and has it ever been officially released?

anagram, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 16:20 (sixteen years ago)

maybe cos there's a few less comedy voices which are ALWAYS A BAD IDEA GUYS. Looking at you, Phil Collins Doing Mockney

While acknowledging that there is the odd mockney voice on Foxtrot, I feel duty bound to point out that Phil Collins doesn't actually sing on the album. I know Phil gets it in the neck a lot, but he can't be blamed for this one.

anagram, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 18:50 (sixteen years ago)

Really? From the credits:

Phil Collins / drums, voices, percussion, lead vocals(2)

Such A Hilbily (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:25 (sixteen years ago)

yeah, pretty sure the whole "what a hrorible thing he's disgusting, what a horrible thing to do" bits are the work of ex-stage schooler phil

Oh baby if only you knew I'm down to a hundred-and-two (stevie), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:27 (sixteen years ago)

also pretty sure 'harlequin' is to a large part phil too

Oh baby if only you knew I'm down to a hundred-and-two (stevie), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:28 (sixteen years ago)

Part of "Get'em Out By Friday" was definitely sung by Phil. I don't agree there is something wrong with that though. (And - mockney? Remember, Collins came out of much more of a working class background than the other guys in the band, who were art school and (Tony and Mike in particular) indeed quite posh.

Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 20:44 (sixteen years ago)

Well I don't have my copy of Foxtrot close to hand, but this page
seems to reproduce the credits and says that Collins just did backing vocals. "Get 'Em Out By Friday" was probably Gabriel doing all the voices.

anagram, Thursday, 11 June 2009 08:51 (sixteen years ago)

Mighty Hogweed will be avenged.

The Real Dirty Vicar, Thursday, 11 June 2009 14:17 (sixteen years ago)

collins didn't sing get 'em out by friday. he did sing the primary vocal on 'for absent friends'. he didn't have a solo lead vocal until "more fool me". all the comedy voices on everything else are Gabriel.

akm, Thursday, 11 June 2009 14:31 (sixteen years ago)

Hogweed! Oh my god, no human being should be made to choose tracks of this.

Fever Pitch, Bitch (Bimble), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:09 (sixteen years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

System, Thursday, 18 June 2009 23:01 (sixteen years ago)

Looks like The Musical Box will be the runaway winner going by these posts.

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 19 June 2009 19:19 (sixteen years ago)

My class hated that "Musical Box" video.:(

Sundar, Friday, 19 June 2009 21:12 (sixteen years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Friday, 19 June 2009 23:01 (sixteen years ago)

there are > 40 ilxors who care about prog genesis enough to have an opinion on this

ugh

thomp, Friday, 19 June 2009 23:04 (sixteen years ago)

Some of them care enough to SB haters too, the rogues.

The "Confirm" button from the hilarious Suggest Ban page (Noodle Vague), Friday, 19 June 2009 23:05 (sixteen years ago)

the guy hasnt been around ilx long i assume

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 19 June 2009 23:08 (sixteen years ago)

I played Musical Box at the gym today and it really flipped my lid, so this is a nice result to see.

Subway to Idaho (Bimble), Friday, 19 June 2009 23:47 (sixteen years ago)

Some of them care enough to SB haters too, the rogues.

― The "Confirm" button from the hilarious Suggest Ban page (Noodle Vague), Friday, June 19, 2009 11:05 PM (50 minutes ago) Bookmark

thankfully while there are > 40 there are < 50 of you

so suck it, progfag

thomp, Friday, 19 June 2009 23:57 (sixteen years ago)

i think you probably guaranteed you will get 51 now

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Saturday, 20 June 2009 00:03 (sixteen years ago)

the guy hasnt been around ilx long i assume

Ah, those wistful Fridays of yore when ILM got all Yessed out...

(Yeah, I didn't think anyone was still seriously ragging on prog in 2009, to be honest.)

Lostandfound, Saturday, 20 June 2009 01:29 (sixteen years ago)

thomp must be an NME reader

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Saturday, 20 June 2009 11:57 (sixteen years ago)

I wonder if thomp isn't just a trolling sockpuppet of someone else.

Subway to Idaho (Bimble), Saturday, 20 June 2009 12:32 (sixteen years ago)

even noodle vague wouldnt fight with himself (on the internet at least)

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Saturday, 20 June 2009 12:36 (sixteen years ago)

so suck it, progfag

Cut shit like this out please Thomp.

f1f0 (Pashmina), Saturday, 20 June 2009 12:41 (sixteen years ago)

Yeah I was trying to think of who might be behind the sockpuppet because J0hn D. had said that he really swore off prog rock when he sold his prog records for Lou Reed & Iggy Pop or Bowie or whatever he said. So I thought Thomp might be J0hn's version of a sock joke, just to entertain us all, but I doubt even he would stoop as low as "progfag" I mean, jeez, what little imagination. Haven't you heard that fag isn't a derogatory term, dipshit?

Subway to Idaho (Bimble), Saturday, 20 June 2009 17:11 (sixteen years ago)

As far as I know thomp is a poster of some years and I think his - admittedly not cool - use of fag was more cos he was pissed off that I SBd him rather than setting out to be deliberately aggro. And y'know, sorry about that mister but yr initial comment was kinda unnecessary and if you really have been round ILX for years you might have noticed lots of people don't give a fuck about what we're not supposed to like or care about.

Smoking a Progfag (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 20 June 2009 17:20 (sixteen years ago)

Okay folks, Noodle just PWNED it. What do you have to say for yourselves? I came SO close to putting "progfag" in my screen name, but then you see Noodle did and took it a step further. I can't compete. Jim, I salute you. *salute*

Subway to Idaho (Bimble), Saturday, 20 June 2009 18:50 (sixteen years ago)

I know. I've said this before. A zillion times. To anyone I know who would listen. But let me say it just one more time. Because I want to know why this video isn't god. I want to know exactly why this isn't god. I mean, I'm an atheist, but this is about the closest thing I've ever experienced to something like god until this moment, so...tell me why this isn't god, thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFBY4dvoISc

A Breath of Fresh Culture (Bimble), Monday, 22 June 2009 01:13 (sixteen years ago)

Also Gabriel can fucking stomp Eno under his platform shoes, don't you think? For this era?

A Breath of Fresh Culture (Bimble), Monday, 22 June 2009 01:21 (sixteen years ago)

no

akm, Monday, 22 June 2009 01:49 (sixteen years ago)

hahahahahah were the feathers too much? It was the feathers you think put Eno over the line, huh?

A Breath of Fresh Culture (Bimble), Monday, 22 June 2009 02:02 (sixteen years ago)

sixteen years pass...

There are metal guitar solos all over this thing.

I'm not new to this album by any means, but I played it less than other Gabriel Genesis, and dragged it back out tonight. the songs here are so much more gorgeous and simultaneously full of imtense gravitas than I remember.

Strawmandalorian (Neanderthal), Saturday, 14 March 2026 04:36 (two months ago)

Yeah the beginning of Hogweed is tres metallic

podcast Diderot (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 14 March 2026 06:40 (two months ago)

Kind of regretting not seeing Steve Hackett's tour where he did Genesis songs a few years back.

Strawmandalorian (Neanderthal), Saturday, 14 March 2026 13:58 (two months ago)

I think Hackett may have been the first guitarist to use hammer-ons outside of a jazz/fusion context? Correct me if I'm wrong.

you're not tarkovsky, get the fuck on with it (Matt #2), Saturday, 14 March 2026 14:23 (two months ago)

He claims he was the one who influenced EVH to tap.

Strawmandalorian (Neanderthal), Saturday, 14 March 2026 14:24 (two months ago)

The first rock guy oft credited (or at least who likes to take credit) is the guy from Canned Heat, Harvey Mandel, but Hackett might have been the first EVH heard. Fun fact: supposedly EVH didn't start tapping until 6 months before they recorded the first album!

Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 14 March 2026 17:53 (two months ago)

From Van Halen rising:

Around 1974, Kilgore started giving guitar lessons. One of his early pupils was a fourteen-year-old Chris Holmes. Holmes, later of W.A.S.P., explains, “When I was a young kid I took guitar lessons from Terry Kilgore. I could get high school credit for taking these guitar lessons.”

To pay for his sessions, Holmes got a summer job. He says, “I was painting houses in La Cañada and Flintridge. One day I looked in the window of this house we were painting, and I noticed all these gold records lining the walls. I knocked on the door. I asked the lady that answered about them and she told me they were Harvey Mandel’s awards. I was like, Huh, I don’t know who that is.”

When Holmes showed up for his next lesson, he mentioned that he’d been inside the home of a musician named Harvey Mandel. Holmes asked Kilgore, “Who’s Harvey Mandel?”

“He’s a great guitarist, that’s who he is. Next time you’re there working get his phone number for me.”

Holmes says, “I did, and Terry went up there and met Mandel.”

At that time, the twenty-nine-year-old Mandel had already had a career that would be the envy of guitarists everywhere. He’d grown up a blues prodigy in Chicago. Mandel then joined the ranks of boogie-rockers Canned Heat and would perform with them at the Woodstock Festival. Not one to stand still, Mandel then became a member of John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers, a band that had incubated Edward’s guitar idol, Eric Clapton. He also recorded two solo albums, Baby Batter (1971) and Snake (1972).

When Kilgore showed up at Mandel’s home, he asked the famous guitarist for lessons. Kilgore says, “I just wanted to take lessons from him, because I loved the way he played.” He didn’t hide his enthusiasm after his first session and arrived at practice raving about Mandel’s talents. “I was playing with Terry in 1974 and 1975 when he was taking those lessons,” Laidig says, “I know he was really jazzed about taking them from him.”

Kilgore, who always kept tabs on the latest guitar techniques, was particularly interested in learning Mandel’s unique two-handed tapping technique. While playing lead runs, Mandel would use his pick-hand fingers to sound, or “tap,” notes on the guitar neck in a stuttering and meandering fashion.

Mandel, it turns out, had learned the unorthodox method from a former bandmate. In 1972, Mandel had joined a Los Angeles–based blues-rock band, the Pure Food and Drug Act. Mandel shared guitar duties in that group with a wildly creative player named Randy Resnick. During the band’s long live jams, Resnick would often tap notes with his picking hand. Mandel took notice.

In the months that followed, Mandel woodshedded the technique. Mandel told writer Abel Sharp: “Randy was the first guitarist I ever saw tap, and he had his own little way of doing it … After I saw Randy Resnickdoing it, I got on it. I started doing it all over.” On his 1973 solo album, Shangrenade, Mandel showcased a style that featured the two-handed technique as the centerpiece of his lead playing.

After learning it from Mandel, Kilgore started to experiment with the method. Chris Holmes recollects, “The next time I took a lesson with Terry, he was doing finger tapping.” Kilgore also showed his bandmates and his soundman, Kevin Gallagher, the technique. Gallagher explains, “So Terry started showing up with this (tapping) stuff that Mandel was teaching him. I never really met Mandel. But they were pretty tight, and he shared a lot of this stuff with Terry. My understanding is that Harvey started that style of playing and showed it to Terry.”

It didn’t take long for Kilgore to share this novel method with Edward. Gallagher says, “I can recall at least one time when I was doing sound in Jon Laidig’s basement that Eddie was sitting on the basement stairs learning that stuff from Terry.”

Before Kilgore gave Edward a tutorial on finger tapping, it’s quite likely that Edward knew that a few forward-thinking guitarists occasionally used their pick hands in this fashion. Edward, a player who could hear a song once and then play right along, surely heard, for example, when Billy Gibbons offered up a quick tap during his solo on ZZ Top’s 1973 barnburner “Beer Drinkers & Hell Raisers” (a song Van Halen covered frequently in the early days).

But while Gibbons’s technique involved adding nothing more than a single-pinged note to his solo, Mandel’s approach saw him construct entire lead lines around the use of tapping. It was embedded deeply in his compositions, rather than a bit of guitar flash used to spice up a solo, and it opened up Edward’s eyes. Kilgore says, “That’s where, believe it or not, Edward picked up on the second hand style. I said check this out (and tapped), and he went, Wow. He started doing it. I had a lot of ideas that ended up in Edward’s hands. He had a few that ended up in mine for sure.”

Even though Kilgore’s demonstration made an impression, there are only a few observers who can recall Edward using his right hand on the neck onstage before 1977. Guitarist Dennis Catron, who regularly caught Van Halen live during these years, says he never saw Edward use his full-blown two-handed technique “until about the time they got signed (in 1977)” but is adamant that onstage he “did little ones, like one note,” à la Gibbons in “Beer Drinkers,” as far back as 1975. Guitarist Donny Simmons recalls he heard Edward “experiment” with tapping during a soundcheck at the Golden West Ballroom in the summer of 1975: “I’ll never forget. We’d done our set and we were headed back to the bar to get a beer. I turned around, and I was all like, ‘What in the fuck is he doing?’ Think about hearing that for the first time after you’re used to hearing Bad Company. What’s all this [imitates tapping noise]? I was all, ‘What was that?’”

Edward’s occasional single finger taps aside, there’s no evidence that between 1975 and 1976, Edward employed the flowing two-handed hammer-on and pull-off style that would become his musical signature after the release of Van Halen. During those years, Edward apparently toyed with what he’d learned from Kilgore, hitting a few pick-hand notes here and there while onstage or in practice, but wouldn’t unleash his game-changing take on the technique until the early summer of 1977, just months before Van Halen would enter the studio to record their debut.

Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 14 March 2026 18:01 (two months ago)

Kind of regretting not seeing Steve Hackett's tour where he did Genesis songs a few years back.

― Strawmandalorian (Neanderthal), Saturday, March 14, 2026 8:58 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

he tours a lot so you may get another chance - much like Jon Anderson the man is prog rock royalty so he's got an insane backing band, including Nad Sylvan who imitates 70s Gabriel extremely well

unfortunately I don't think he does much from this album

frogbs, Saturday, 14 March 2026 18:17 (two months ago)

Haven't really heard Mandel et al but I'm guessing Hackett was the first tapper to make it sound like a harpsichord!

you're not tarkovsky, get the fuck on with it (Matt #2), Saturday, 14 March 2026 18:26 (two months ago)

just looked up the “Baby Batter” album cover on discogs, eww

Mollusk, Virginia (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 14 March 2026 18:35 (two months ago)

Why, oh why, was this thread not called "Play me Old King POLL"?

play, sideman (SlimAndSlam), Sunday, 15 March 2026 02:40 (two months ago)

i fucking love pure food and drug act as well as harvey mandel, i don't really associate him with tapping but there's this great tape from late '71 of them. pure food and drug act not only featured harvey mandel, but don "sugarcane" harris post don 'n dewey.

Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 15 March 2026 04:33 (two months ago)


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