this year is turning me against the idea of women making electronic music — help

at least in the uk, it seems like overhyped female synthpop artists have turned into the new overhyped blokish rock band, sharing with their precursors a devotion to having no interesting sounds or songs ever

itt plz point me in the direction of some women making interesting electronic music in 2009

Bachelorette

cooly g

otm

Fever Ray

ikonika

Dinky, Ellen Allien, Kate Simko

haha lex i was just googling to see if ikonika had released anything lately

here is a youtube embed of 'please' at any rate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvpgiiotL0U

jessica rylan

she released 'millie' (named after her cat!) (actually that might have been late last year), plus a really great rmx of 'township funk'

i know what you mean re: the thread title - though it's not so much women making electronic music as self-consciously quirky girls making 80s-fetishising synthpop.

oh yeah and check ikonika's vice mag mix from this year too - it's really great stuff

i know what you mean re: the thread title - though it's not so much women making electronic music as self-consciously quirky girls making 80s-fetishising synthpop.

OTM. Dunno about an early 90's revival, but we need some new nostalgia quick.

Ikonika and Cooly G seconded

The Doubtful Guest and Syntheme added

Props to Cooly G but I reckon the most exciting and promising female funky producer is Royal P (odd that the names sound so similar). Check the amazing amazing "Between Us" (you can buy it off ukfunky.com too, though they're a tad expensive for mp3 purchases). It's like Aaliyah's "We Need A Resolution" meets 808 State circa 90, only with awesome cut-up vocals as well.

(for the sake of clarity let me stress that this is not about saying "there can only be one" good female funky producer worthy of attention. Miss Fire is also v. good - see her "Lost In Your House" with Van Kleef)

"It's like Aaliyah's "We Need A Resolution" meets 808 State circa 90, only with awesome cut-up vocals as well."

say whaaaaa?

Here's a preview tricky:

http://www.uk-funky.com/ukfunky_previews_129.htm

'lost in your house' is on the footloose disc of the MoS comp too - it's brilliant, yeah

btw cooly g played one of the best sets i've ever heard in my life at tactile last week - so deep and summery, and the moment she dropped âme's 'rej' out of nowhere was incredible

Did the overhype of crap male rock bands make you think that males shouldn't make music?

I'm guessing that the subject title is supposed to be 'provocative'

"It's like Aaliyah's "We Need A Resolution" meets 808 State circa 90, only with awesome cut-up vocals as well."

say whaaaaa?

^^^^

As a woman *in* electronic music, this question just really turns me off ILX in general.

Can you imagine if the question was "this year is turning me off the idea of black people making electronic music"?

This kind of thing is just *SO* unneccessary.

Did the overhype of crap male rock bands make you think that males shouldn't make music?

Kind of

Can you imagine if the question was "this year is turning me off the idea of black people making electronic music"?

I think it has a bit more relevance, and isn't really a like for like deal, cos there honestly are a painfully small number of visible female electronic producers right now - I don't really go in for the 'ooh edgy' approach of the question but I'm happy to talk about Ikonika on ILX, y'know?

You're really missing the point, aren't you?

There wouldn't be a thread entitled "this year is turning me off the idea of black people making electronic music" because it would be shouted down in a barrage of people saying "that's racist!"

I long for the day when overt or subtle sexism is treated as just as unacceptable as racism in supposedly liberal communities like ILX, but that really isn't going to happen, is it?

the question was poorly phrased b/c what the thread starter seems to be objecting to isn't women in electronic music in the sense of any of the producers/djs listed here, but the specific industry/chart trend of quirky girls with no substance to their music. and i'm pretty sure most people on this thread - including kate - have made much the same criticisms of them.

not sure that gender is really relevant there though - frankmusik and calvin harris should also be bracketed with la roux, florence & the machine, micachu et al when it comes to wackiness as a substitute for talent, inability to sing or dress themselves &c &c.

would be quite happy for this thread to either turn into another pile-on of hate towards the electrodribble synthpop hacks, or to be a love-in for cooly g, ikonika et al.

Just keepin' it positive 09 was all - I mean what thomp poster is saying in his actual post isn't really backing up the sentiment "this year is turning me against the idea of women making electronic music". Just playing a numbers game here, apart from anything "this year is turning me off the idea of black people making electronic music" would be laughed out of town because there are really obviously shitloads of black ppl making good and respected music across a wide variety of 'electronic' genres, most of which were also basically invented by black ppl

xp

Actually to some extent I think the thread does make some sense if you put "women making electronic music" in quotation marks.

In much the same way as a thread in 2001/2002 titled "this year is turning me against the idea of boys with guitars" would have made sense.

Undeniably, the idea of "women" in music is something that is culturally coded. When it comes to popular electronic music, female producers who are celebrated as females are invariably "individuals", purported iconoclasts, usually halfway revivalist, almost certainly "eclectic" and reluctant to be too intimately associated with a particular sound or scene.

In 2001/2002 the apparent rock revolution was often dedicated to the opposite of the above values (well, apart from revivalism) - bands did well critically if their sound was purist and focused to the point of tunnel vision, band names were workmanlike and functionalist albeit usually a little bit nudge nudge wink wink provocative (compare "The Strokes" and "The Hives" to the more enigmatic/evocative/meaningless "La Roux" and "Ladyhawke").

It seems pretty clear to me that that era had a very masculinist, hard gigging, "cut the crap" vibe, whereas the (surreally tardy) celebration of La Roux etc. is very much about image, mystique etc. all of which are associated with the feminine for better or for worse.

i get the impression thomp isn't a pop fan anyway, partly due to the "interesting" requirement.

It almost goes without saying women are hindered as much as helped by this kind of marketing push. Female artists who aren't identifiable with a particular hairstyle aren't going to find it easy to make it work for them.

Similarly there were heaps of male artists and bands who wouldn't - couldn't - have benefited from 2001's male rock revolution.

What prevents this from being a bigger problem is the extent of fragmentation - no particular "idea" of what popular music is or should be at any given time can stitch the whole field together e.g. 2001/2002 was ground zero of electroclash and the art-phag renaissance at the same time people were falling over themselves to praise The Vines.

What does their gender have to do with their being shit, though?

They are shit because they have little or no obvious talent, not because they're women.

(However, this opens up the kettle of fish that women in the music industry world are judged first on appearance, and on discernable talent second. So is it any wonder that these women are hyped on their marketability, read: looks, image, etc. first, and talent is a minor consideration, if at all.)

If you are a producer or electronic musician who happens to be female, you'll always be treated as a kind of talking dog, and your gender will always be an issue discussed before any of your music ever is - in a way that men don't ever have to deal with. And then people turn around and go "wow, why are there so few female electronic music producers? how weird is that?" and the cycle turns around yet again.

Maybe I'm taking this more personally than most, because I *AM* a female electronic musician and producer, and Shimura Curves are finally going to be releasing our much-delayed first album this year, and I'm looking at this and thinking "this is the shit that we're going to be facing" and it makes me want to shelve the album for the rest of time.

(Does this mean that we'll be facing shit, meaningless, completely inappropriate La Roux comparisons this year instead of facing shit, meaningless completely inappropriate Pipettes comparisons? Oh god, I hate fashion in the music industry.)

(Not to mention that female artists are held somehow accountable or spokespersons for their entire gender in a way that males never are.)

"(Does this mean that we'll be facing shit, meaningless, completely inappropriate La Roux comparisons this year instead of facing shit, meaningless completely inappropriate Pipettes comparisons? Oh god, I hate fashion in the music industry.)"

Yes.

I think everyone agrees that shitness of a musician has nothing to do with their gender. I think the entire point of this thread is how, because gender is always turned into a bigger issue for female artists than male artists, it's a lot harder for them to just "do their thing".

To put it reductively, quite often female artists are signed, hyped and marketed on the basis that their expression of gender expresses an agenda.

This happens with guys too but male artists also have the option of simply ignoring their gender to some extent.

fragmentation notwithstanding, what marks the current quirky-girl trend is that they're all being v quick to lay claim to being "pop" - pop as a specific aesthetic rather than what happens to be popular obv - this is done by both la roux, little boots et al themselves, and on their behalf by most of the coverage they get. so whether or not they're particularly resonant in the wider popular culture, they've cleverly hijacked the word "pop" to mean stuff like...synths, quirkiness, hairstyles, the 80s, a certain DIY/amateur tendency.

xps

and obviously none of the producers or DJs in this thread would be called "pop"

"I think everyone agrees that shitness of a musician has nothing to do with their gender."

Actually this isn't quite true. Probably more correct to say that any relationship between a musician's work and their gender is as liable to produce brilliance as it is awfulness, and that most awfulness in music has very little to do with gender.

La Roux IS really popular tho - talk about self-fulfilling prophecy

"synths, quirkiness, hairstyles, the 80s, a certain DIY/amateur tendency."

Actually I think this is a lot of what pop is about right now. The funny thing about, say, Little Boots, is that her big song could easily be an anonymous chart-topping commercial electro-house hit along the lines of The Ian Carey Project's "Get Shakey".

Really the main difference is in the photoshoots, the press releases, etc. and this filters down to the way in which she gets talked about. Now on the one hand this means that skeptics can be all "emperor's new clothes" about her risque star quality, but the flipside is that I think she probably is closer to "pop in 2009" (whatever that means) than you're suggesting, Lex.

Ha X-Post!

If you are a producer or electronic musician who happens to be female, you'll always be treated as a kind of talking dog, and your gender will always be an issue discussed before any of your music ever is - in a way that men don't ever have to deal with. And then people turn around and go "wow, why are there so few female electronic music producers? how weird is that?" and the cycle turns around yet again.

I recognise all this but also don't think it's impossible to feel pleased for someone like Ikonika (who btw I think is as much a square peg in dubstep for the fact that she comes from a punk/metal background and doesn't have a longstanding background in the genre) without it being a semi-fetishization of gender or tokenistic or 'ooh, didn't she do well'

i think what irks isn't so much whether she's popular or not as a lot of the "finally, these retro synthpop acts are bringing proper pop back" rhetoric

re: ikonika, i've met lots of people who had no idea that she's a girl

My position on this may be influenced by the fact that all of this stuff has been popular in Oz for like the last four years, only it's been presented under the banner of homegrown commercial dance-pop rather than vaguely indie electro-pop.

Ladyhawke's "My Delirium" is one of the most ubiquitous radio songs here (also I actually really like it).

""finally, these retro synthpop acts are bringing proper pop back" rhetoric"

Oh, I haven't seen any of that. Surely everyone knows that this same line has been repeated throughout the entire decade, increasingly tenuously?

It's endlessly circular and self reinforcing and pisses me off - but I recognise this is an issue that affects me in ways it simply doesn't affect you.

I wish female artists were given the option of ignoring their gender because stuff like this:

without it being a semi-fetishization of gender or tokenistic or 'ooh, didn't she do well'

makes me actually want to physically assault people who say things like that.

So this is a discussion I rather have to bow out of. WHich makes me sad on another level. :-(

Kate are you having some discussion that the rest of us are simply not having? I don't see anyone in this thread disagreeing with you.

Did you not see the post I was answering?

I recognise all this but also don't think it's impossible to feel pleased for someone like Ikonika ... without it being a semi-fetishization of gender or tokenistic or 'ooh, didn't she do well'

The definition of "proper pop music" that is being brought back changes about once every two years, that's the thing. Two years ago it was 60s girl groups, now it's both 80s synth-pop and late 90s Billie-Britney chunky-dance pop. (xpost - what Tim said).

I think Kate is right in her objections and the thread starter is a bit on an idiot. At the same time the notion that there wasn't as much style-over-substance pop froth surrounding The Strokes and The Hives as there is surrounding Little Boots and La Roux is a very curious one. They strike me as being flip-sides of the same coin - objectivied, very conscious distillations of a particular pop aesthetic.

Did you not see the post I was answering?

I recognise all this but also don't think it's impossible to feel pleased for someone like Ikonika ... without it being a semi-fetishization of gender or tokenistic or 'ooh, didn't she do well'

― Violent In Design (Masonic Boom), Tuesday, 30 June 2009 11:56 (1 minute ago)

It's a bit clumsily worded, but I'm reading it the other way to how you are Kate.

In other words:

It is possible to feel pleased for someone like Ikonika without it being a semi-fetishization of gender or tokenistic or 'ooh, didn't she do well'

^^^^

Unless Kate you're talking the position that any expression of approval for a female producer beating the odds and actually prospering in their given niche on their own terms is patronising sexism that must be stamped out.

I mean, you could argue that drawing attention to it somehow reinforces it. But that would be like when Momus told everyone they should "move past" discussions of racism and racial disadvantage because discussing these things would only reinforced them.

hey kate, why dont u quit flappin ur dicksuckers for a few minutes and let the big boys talk about electronic music in peace

I guess I'm reading that double negative as a kind of... "Well, it's not IMPOSSIBLE... (oh, and maybe pigs could fly out of my arse...)" - I don't know. Like, it's not *impossible* but it's certainly not the norm or anything. It does make it sound patronising.

The very premise of the thread makes me feel like I'm on the defensive to start with, so everything is going to be coloured by it.

okay fair enough but I didn't read that sarcasm at all, I think he was responding to your own post that implied that such a thing kinda was highly unlikely!

it would be deeply absurd and depressingly backwards if Ikonika, Cooly G or were having more made of their gender than the likes of Kemistry & Storm and DJ Rap were 15 years ago - i get the impression they are sometimes. but if this were the case it's not the only example of how staggeringly backwards things seem to have gone compared to 20 years ago when Neneh Cherry's 'Manchild' was a considerably more "interesting electronic" yet hugely popular record than anything current AND the charts featured the likes of The Bangles (all girls, all with instruments - this concept seems almost irretrievably unmarketable at present) and even Fuzzbox, Voice Of The Beehive, Shakespeare's Sister...all the "proper pop" of its time.

maybe The Veronicas play guitar/synths and I just hadn't noticed tho

Have you not heard of this little thing called "the Backlash" ?

Now I don't know if it's because I moved country in the middle (I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the UK music scene actually is more sexist than the US) or what, but it FEELS like things have actually got worse, since I started making music in the late 80s/early 90s.

Something else that bothers me - why has synth player/producer Ben Langmaid not been held equally responsible for the shitness of La Roux?

Surely this means that men should equally be kept away from making electronic music, que non?

"quirky girls with no substance to their music."

...

"Something else that bothers me - why has synth player/producer Ben Langmaid not been held equally responsible for the shitness of La Roux?"

Probably because La Roux's bizarre vocals crowd out any memory of the competent (but only competent) synthesiser playing.

this year is turning me against the idea of women

http://weblog.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Logo_ncod_lg.gif

oyy

did the overhype of crap male rock bands make you think that males shouldn't make music?

... yes? (okay i see tom d already did this)

kate i'm genuinely sorry if the thread title caused offence; tim f is doing a better, more articulate job of deserving it than i would, or than it deserves

i was hoping that people would get into how ideas of gender play into the hyping of la roux etc; i also would like if it could continue being celebratory of ppl who are making good music in the '09; sorry, again, to anyone who feels such celebration is irrevocably tainted by tokenism

also mad props to the guy who said i'm "a bit on an idiot", it makes me sound like some kind of unappealing growth

In other words:

It is possible to feel pleased for someone like Ikonika without it being a semi-fetishization of gender or tokenistic or 'ooh, didn't she do well'

― Chewshabadoo, Tuesday, 30 June 2009 12:00 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^that would be it yes - there were quite a lot of negatives in the post and some big galumphing parentheses so it was confusing I guess

Pretending that vapid comparisons to current pop hits or marginalizing other group members in favor of the singer when criticizing a group is a female artist-only thing is kind of disingenuous, though. Yes, I am sure new press on female-led groups/individual artists/all-woman groups will get some comparisons to whatever is charting. Much like a local group who plays somewhat mopey guitar rock got a lot of Coldplay references in their reviews a few years back, despite any resemblance being fleeting. And sticking with that theme, where's the thread about rappers (and the general public) referring to one person as "Coldplay" and ignoring the rest of the group?

"overhyped female synthpop artists have turned into the new overhyped blokish rock band"
I think part of the rise of female synthpop artists is due to disgust with overhyped blokish rock bands, so yes, people do get tokenistically tired of all music made by youngish dudes with guitars.

You're seriously missing the point.

When a (female) artist is bad, her badness is held up as systematically representative of her entire gender. See thread title, please.

When was the last time that, say, someone male and bad - like Coldplay - was held up as being systematically representative of ALL men?

i like coldplay

i fucking told you not to start this thread, thomp!

what a clusterfuck.

this thread came from another one?

La Roux - In For The Kill (Skream's Let's Get Ravey Mix)

just fyi the title isnt "this year is turning me against women making electronic music" its "this year is turning me against the idea of women making electronic music" which is i think rather different

what a clusterfuck.

The bits where people mention musicians they think are good and then talk about it are quite nice

yes but you have to wade through screeds of shite to get to them.

i almost wish Tim hadn't mentioned 90 because i immediately thought of the Royal P track out of the fairly rigid 4-beat template and with punchy TR snares etc. i will cop this anyway.

no-one wants to KIP :(

someone please lock this thread so that people will stop trying to defend it

When was the last time that, say, someone male and bad - like Coldplay - was held up as being systematically representative of ALL men?

For me, this was mid-80s hair metal, and it was specifically the idea of white American men making music that seemed completely and utterly hopeless because they all sounded like Poison.

Poison rocks, you are all women

Actually, I take that back; 90s nu-metal was the last time I really hated white men in music (although there were a few exceptions); it's no surprise that that period of time coincided with when I bought the most hip-hop.

if this is going to become a thread where everyone shares when they thought a race and/or gender should stop making a type of music ("after OMC I decided all maoris...") why not change the thread title to "Rolling Musical Internment Camp 2009" or something.

shut up

HI DERE otm

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wZiBGrJIAIk/SfI-Jg-BvJI/AAAAAAAAC74/RXaPYGgQXQ0/s320/delorian_jordy.jpg

1993 is turning me against the idea of babies making crappy French one hit wonder music — help

French babies, they are a menace

shut up

― he is substituite by Crime Club (HI DERE), Tuesday, 30 June 2009 14:30 (1 minute ago) Bookmark

I think it would be a really good idea to lock this thread with its ridiculous title, because this really is going to become a war, and if you want to talk about amazing women making good electronic music, go here:

Women in electronic/dance music

Jordy is still making records today. his LP 'Toys Out Da Pram' was released late last year to mixed reviews.

This thread should be kept open at least until Geir gets equal time.

Not sure where Geir stands on women... in music

the thread and the thread title are really not about women being bad at making electronic music

shit, really?

kate i think this:

When a (female) artist is bad, her badness is held up as systematically representative of her entire gender. See thread title, please

is a fairly wilful misreading — you'd have to ignore that we're in a current spell of "LOOK AT ALL THESE WOMEN WHO ARE MAKING SYNTHPOP, ISN'T IT NOVEL" which i did not invent nor originate

i was really sad about the "a bit of an idiot" part of this thread.

i am kind of amazed how THREAD POLICE several ppl are getting abt this tbh

i am hoping it will die down so i can come back in a day or so and post links to ikonika mixes and talk about kevin blechdom's new album (which is, er, acoustic, what's with that)

is a fairly wilful misreading — you'd have to ignore that we're in a current spell of "LOOK AT ALL THESE WOMEN WHO ARE MAKING SYNTHPOP, ISN'T IT NOVEL" which i did not invent nor originate

WHY.

THE FUCK.

ARE PEOPLE.

STILL.

SAYING THIS.

IN THE YEAR TWO THOUSAND AND FUCKING NINE?

Back to the horrible desire to punch people again. "Ooh, I'm not being sexist, I'm just quoting (ridiculously sexist) stuff in general society"

for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it

wilful misreading v wilful provocation

only one can win

for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it
for future reference - if you're truly amazed, thomp - when someone titles a thread "this year is turning me against the idea of (race/gender) making (musical genre)" some people will get THREAD POLICE about it