Arguing vehemently over music: classic or dud?

How is neuromancer like Gondola Bob? Why?

More importantly, why does Ally avoid solid arguments? Or why does she come to irrational conclusions based on what was actually written? Why must she resort to doubt in order to make her points seem less doubtful?

Gondola Bob must've been a real swell fella

On the whole, I prefer Flat Eric.

Gondola Bob was the prince of playas. In his own sad mind.

Oh, of course it's classic. How could this forum exist otherwise :) ?

Arguing politely over music: classic.

Arguing aggressively over music: dud.

"Vehemently" sounds like it falls into the second category.

It's a shame the rock/rap thread ended up like it did because these are important questions - very important ones. But we've discussed important questions here before without calling each other morons and fuckwads, too. So something was different, and it was mostly the tone of the posting. If we want to talk about this kind of stuff, might I suggest leaving it a couple of weeks and then not being so belligerent about the questioning? Or the replying for that matter.

Rap differs from rock primarily in vocal delivery and construction of music. Other than that... it's music.

The important thing here is that, while all music comes from the same foundation (ie, sound waves), it can sound vastly different and inspire vastly different emotions in the people who listen to it. That's what makes it worth discussing.

At any rate, I don't think the point of the rap thread was that rappers are better than rockers. It was that rappers are not worse than rockers. It's also dangerously simplistic to isolate music as the only external influence on a person's behavior.

I prefer discussion to argument and yes, there are important questions about the language of violence and its effects, of how it is used out of context, can we devalue it? and there are questions of ego, reputation, expectation, trust, attachment etc. that the nature of net-forums throw up - I juggle with these , badly at times i know and i aint Wittgenstein at the best of times - shit-stirring begets shit-stirring - lets learn from this !

Is this a genuine question? Isn't "Why do you feel justified and victorious when twisting other people's words to endorse your preferred brand of music if all music is inherently the same?" a bit suspect? And just who is Gondola Bob?

DG, it is a genuine question. I think we've all been guilty of at one time or another for reasons we're not entirely sure of. I know a lot of people were jumping all over me for thinking I had said something more all-encompassing than I actually had.

Given the "vibe" on ILM for the past couple weeks, I must confess that my motives in the Rap/Rock thread were not altogether pure. Hopefully this has generated some sort of generalized catharsis. Maybe I'll start the thread again in a few weeks and see if there's a more evenhanded discussion.

Sterling, I recognized it as a bait from my post on the prog section about how I can't stand hip hop culture. I complied by giving my opinion of rap, knowing it would just enrage some people. That's their problem, not mine. I am entitled to speak my piece and as it turns out, surprise surprise, everyone knew what I was talking about. Certainly not PM Dawn or De La Soul.

So, what was the point, really? People who identify with hip hop got to try debating or accuse me of thinking I'm great because I happen to have an opinion that they disagree with. Unfortunately, there is little that resembles rap culture to make a decent comparison. Mm, yes, "Take the skinheads bowling"... what a mighty stir that caused among the youth. I remember it influenced me to buy a bowling ball and grow my hair. Fact remains: posing rap schmucks with pantyhose hats, gold chains and deadly toughguy sidewalk stares are a fucking joke and that sums up most of the rap fans (or are they stars in their own right?) I see in NYC or my television set. Rap for the amusement of the casual listener... well, whatever. I prefer rock. The addition of actual singing is a wonderful compliment to music. And like I said, I'm not familiar with many indie rap artists who are actually positive.

Actually, Neuro, I wasn't thinking about you at all when I started that thread. Furthermore, it wasn't a bait so much as an attempt to spark an interesting discussion. Instead we got a tedious discussion that I could barely pull the occasional insight out of. Furthermore, don't pat yourself on the back for a job well done unless that "job" was alienating everyone on ILM.

The job was as follows, Sterling:

A) Winding up everyone (evidence most likely being the question we are here answering) B) Making generalised statements about varied classes without ever bothering to answer any questions as to why C) Imitating Flat Eric

This was a multiple choice question.

I want to take back my original answer and make it read this: You may ask yourself, why such a big suit? You may ask yourself, couldn't this suit be taken in a little? You may ask yourself, self, why did I buy this suit?

That amuses me far more right now.

I refuse to answer this question seriously until Mr. Wind Up bothers to answer the question as to how the generalised lyrical content of hip hop is any more or less negative than the generalised lyrical content of rock music.

Gondola Bob is, as mentioned, the prince of playas. If you *must* know the details...well, no. Suffice to say that alt.music.alternative left scar tissue. When Google fully puts up all the old dejanews archives, just run some searches and you'll see.

"Rock" doesn't have much of a violent edge. Genres of "rock" do, but that's not "rock" is it? Rock has a negative side, for sure. I've said this before. Rarely is it's imagery as violent as rap. Gangsta rap is over? How come I thought DMX and Eminem were gangsta rap til someone snickered at me? Could it be the violence, the misogynist lyrics? Sounds like the same stupid shit to me, how would I know the difference? "Oh, well, see, Eminem's joking and they're not talking about gangs, per se."

How many rap albums can go straight through without a song about playing someone, getting back at someone, demanding respect, being the best (Queen's "We Are The Champions" is actually positive, as it is "we" not "I", by the way and tries to inspire the listener to greatness, I'd think. I never thought, "Oh that Freddie Mercury thinks he's so fuckin' great!"). Rap's ego-driven tripe is about being harder or better than the rest (this somehow sells more records). How many friggin' rap songs have lyrics like "You play with me, you're gonna get fucked". To me, Queen Latifah is different than Aretha Franklin, although I wouldn't lump her in with Eminem by any stretch. Also, rappers go back and forth. They're bad, then they're good, then they're bad again. I still love Public Enemy's "Fear of a Black Planet", "Fight the power" backed with sargeant jackass's anti-semetic remarks. "I never said that" (but it's on tape) vs. "We apologize for his remarks"---> Public Enemy breaks up. Old news. Whatever the market calls for. Oh, it's all a joke, you can't take it serious... Then why is it delivered so seriously? It takes a nation of millions to hold us back... back from what, exactly?

I think I've made it clear which rap acts I'm talking about. They happen to be mainstream acts. I don't hear much from the likes of PM Dawn anymore. LTJ Bukem raps, but he's more drum and bass, right? I wouldn't say I despise what he stands for: hard drive analogies. Although, he bores me musically.

I'm not racist and I'm not trying to wind you up. As I said, the prevailing NYC rap attitude is that they had to grow up on the hard streets. Like there was no alternative. My frigging boss came from the Bronx, our techie lived all over the place, his friend "Rocky" he's known from childhood. They all make considerably more money than me, a white kid from upstate new york. I lived in The Bronx for 4 months when I was broke. It sucked. I couldn't believe it. Before that, I lived in Port Chester, not a ghetto, but not a nice place (has more violent crime than Manhattan) and there are slums there, too, which is where I lived, next to crack heads. Crack heads are not nice people in any way. It is surprising to realize that you are not safe in your own house.

The attitude that you are hard because you have to be is bullshit. Just like fighting is bullshit. If you have to resort to violence on a daily basis, you are not planning your life very well. Rap has the prevailing selfish attitude of "I'm going to get mine" and "screw you".

And, no, I'm not talking about PM Dawn. You know who I'm talking about.

As I said somewhere else, in NYC, Asians are the only real minority (at about 8%) and they seem to achieve quite a bit. So, I don't accept that societal limitations force people to grow up "hard". A thinking person can get out of a bad situation. A bad attitude and bad influences make the situation worse.

If there is a lot of positive rap out there, hey, I'm all for it! I just wonder why I haven't heard it on my radio or seen it on my television if it's so all-prevailing as the current rap trend. Currently, I hear more songs about being a great playa than violence, but there's still plenty of the b.s. machismo going on, with menacing undertones. What are some great positive rap albums? If I've never heard of any of these artists, then perhaps you would understand that mainstream rap is what I'm against lyrically.

Musically, as I said, rap leaves something to be desired for me. But, hey, maybe these new positive rap artists have come up with new innovations in rap music, too, huh?

But, let's not dwell on the wonderful aspects of violence and racism. The heart of what I dislike about rap, is what I've said from the beginning: the huge egos. The attitude. The jewelry, car, girl, (gun) that goes with the attitude. It's boring.

And none of the rock I listen to so flagrantly flaunts this self-aggrandizing behavior. Mick Jagger may be a pompous snob, and I'm sure he is, but he doesn't write all of his songs about how great he is. You can't always get what you want... and you shouldn't get what you want if your method is bullying and intimidating people. You should suffer until you learn some humility for god's sake.

Of all the threads we've seen over the past few weeks -we have enjoyed the recent triad the most and we have discussed this vehemently over coffee and toast. You have us alienated me as we have no relationship, we HAVE gained insight from all this in a socio- psychological way - which is our intent - keep it up !

or is this just more words on a page ?

- is meant to read - you haven't alienated us as we have no relationship - or have we - What do you think ?

Neuromancer, if you call me a childish, egomaniacal retard again I shall cry.

Pinefox, I didn't realize I did. Are you this sort of rap persona? If you can admit that you are, then you should realize it on your own. If you just misread what I wrote, I've come to expect that.

Sorry, the idea of pinefox as some kind of rap persona is very amusing. Apologies if this counts as an in-joke.

I don't think it's an injoke anymore, Nick.

it makes me crazy to see the history of hip hop collapsed into a single point. everyone's got their opinions but it doesn't seem like anybody's backing anything up.

to answer the question in *this thread* here's how rap is different: it comes from street corners and rhyming contests. the art of the put- down. samplers, turntables, cheap electronics. hip hop is inherently social. it takes a force of effort make make hip hop nonconfrontational. that is very different from any other kind of music i can think of.

there's a lot of wack MC's. anything that can be marketed and exploited will be, and hiphop is a worldwide phenomenon whose moneymaking potential has yet to hit a wall.

as has been discussed the same was true for metal in the 80s. hard men who'd been around the block a few times. same appeal. and the same misogynistic and violent crap was all over the airwaves. there was good metal but you had to look.

p.s. we've just finished a century of english poetry in which hardly anything rhymed because rhyming's kind of, well, "sissy". now it seems the hard men do nothing but. confusing, no?

Excellent points, Tracey. I truly would agree with everything you've said. The only difference I see is the extent of misogyny, violence and boasting. While rock has treated women as sex objects, I wouldn't lump all of rock with the likes of The Mentors' self-proclaimed "rape rock". Rap, as far as I can tell has always been about being the best. I guess this would go with your "art of the put down" point. Being better, being harder. That in itself I don't like. It's cocky and self-centered and stupid and boring, too. Now, heap a steaming pile of violence onto the whole scene, so that even "positive" rappers have had their share of the rough life to brag about, and what you have is something that I find wholly distasteful. And where's the huge list of positive rappers who've never shown themselves to be violent, egocentric or misogynist, anyway?

People act as if I'm trying to abolish it altogether. I'm just telling you why I don't like it. If I'm wrong, point me to these positive rappers.

You know, neuromancer really does have a top comedy value. I can't read his obsessive, repetitive, combative, relentless posts without chuckling.

Thank you, pinefox, you son of a bitch! Just kidding. I'm just interested in the topic. Believe me, if I could run up to a "rap retard" on the street and ask him why he's trying to be such a hardass, I would. This would generally result in injury, however.

It's TraceR. Not Tracey. Though I am feeling a little Thorney.

WTF with the "positive" requirement for hip hop? There are many examples (Blackalicious, Common, Missy, Lauren Hill, De La, Tribe, Black-Eyed Peas, Outkast, Talib Kweli, Prince Paul, Stetsasonic, Company Flow, Michael Franti, etc. etc.) -- but that's not the point.

Would you rather the Velvet Underground concentrated on the positive aspects of their lives?

In fact, I'm hard-pressed to think of any "positive" rock music I like. The Gories are my favorite band though so make of that what you will.

"So I leap through And dominate the microphone I speak through I'm writin' for the people - bite if you need to I can see through And see dat You saw an MC and tried to be dat That MC you saw ME Can you believe dat? And agree dat True lyrics will always suffice? And R.E.A.L. meanin' Rhymes Equal Actual Life Is the true essence and ebony Trace your record sales G Somethings are pure luck others things are meant to be I bet they'll mention me In the next century "KRS-One innovator in early rap poetry" Simultaneously you will be forgotten While in the year 2000 Criminal Minded will STILL be rockin' You waste your time battlin' me I got mine happenin' see You should of thought G You should of thought sooner instead of battlin' me you need to plan your longevity Before you die broke like Sammy Davis Jr. The solar followed by the lunar Followed by the solar Followed by McDonalds and Coke Cola The point is that Whatever the outcome of the battle the battle goes on with more french fries and soda

- KRS1

No, Tracer, I started out saying almost ALL music is negative. I think the degree of negativity in rap music is much greater. And the "positive" rap seems to mostly be about rising above that negativity, which is what I said initially, is still dwelling on it. I don't remember VU bragging about their rolexes and cars or the amount of women they bang or people they've killed or how tough they are or the various ways to kill people and scenarios surrounding earning respect. They were not a happy band, however. I'll give you that. Are you assuming I think VU is great? We are talking about what I find distasteful about rap overall, by the way. I realize that even the most murderous rap star has happy songs.

Wait, why am I replying? Stop it, hand! Unsubmit....!

I like the Gories, too, by the way. I don't see many threatening gories fans or garage rock fans. I also don't see any real threat in their lyrics. Do you?

if you feel threatened by rap lyrics, you should probably stop listening to music for a while

Ethan, once again you're confusing issues. I feel threatened by menacing rap fans on the street influenced by their heroes who write menacing rhymes. The lyrics themselves pose no threat to my psyche.

"menacing rap fans on the street".

Charles Moore would jump at the above phrase ...

Why, Robyn? Are there no menacing rap fans on the street? Are there no menacing rap fans? Perhaps it is only rap fans who are truly innocent. That would indeed be ironic, wouldn't it? I wonder about the "5% Nation"...