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Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy - Hypocrisy is the Greatest Luxury

Life these days can be so complex we don't make the time to stop and reflect, I know from first-hand experience one can go delirious seriously it can be like that, But before I put my foot in my mouth, 'cause that what I'm about to start talkin' about, please let me confess before all the rest that I'm afflicted by this addicted lime most in the U.S., It's tough to make a living when you're an artist, It's even tougher when you're socially conscious. Careerism, opportunism can turn the politics into cartoonism. Let's not patronize or criticize, let's open the door and look inside, pull the file on this state of denial. Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury, raise the double-standard.

Public Enemy - Don't Believe the Hype

Back, caught you lookin' for the same thing, It's a newthing--check out this I bring. Uh Oh the roll below the leve 'cause I'm livin' low next to the bass, C'mon turn up the radio, they claim that I'm a criminal, By now I wonder how some people never know the enemy could be their friend, guardian, I'm not a hooligan. I rock the party and clear all the madness, I'm not a racist. Preach to teach to all 'cause some they never had this Number one, not born to run. About the gun...I wasn't licensed to have one. The minute they see me, fear me, I'm the epitome--a public enemy. Used, abused without clues, I refused to blow a fuse, they even had it on the news. Don't believe the hype. Okay, so maybe not positive in the flowers and kittens sense, but it's certainly saying a hell of a lot more than "bitchez hoes and blunts", know I'm sayin'?

I think it's pretty clear that that list bit from "Okay..." onward ain't PE, but just thought I should say.

I'd love to hear Chuck D freestyle about flowers and kittens. That would bemuse.

I note idly, neuromancer, that you say:

"I own no rock albums that I've purchased that are anywhere near this violent and/or ignorant."

I trust you're not presuming that that means there aren't any rock albums *at all* which could fit into that category. Because if you are, get stuffed.

As for rock -- "Are You Ready For The Sex Girls" by Gleaming Spires -- given the title the lyrics hardly need reproduction. "I'm a Man" by Bo Diddly (one of the fathers of rock) featuring "all you women get in line. Do you all in an hour's time". Anything from the s/t L.A. Guns album, including the smashing song "We Shoot For Thrills (into the night)". A great deal of the first album from X, incl. "Sex and Dying in High Society"

Kid Rock, from "American Badass" sings "I'm an... American Bad Ass/Watch me kick/You can roll with rock/Or you can Suck My Dick, I'm like amazing grace/I'm gonna fuck some hoe's after I rock this place" Granted he's a sort of rap hybrid, but still.

You want mysogeny -- "Under My Thumb" by The Stones, of course.

You want racism -- that notorious Guns & Roses tune, plus every other word out of Axl Rose's mouth.

You want violence -- Folsom Prison Blues, or half of the rest of Cash's catalogue.

You want negativity -- "Bodies" by The Sex Pistols, "Dragged on a table in a factory/Illegitimate place to be/In a packet in a lavatory/die little baby SCREAMING !/Body screamin fucking bloody mess/it's not an animal /it's an abortion"

You want devience -- "The Plan" by Richard Hell and the Voidoids, which details a nefarious incest scheme.

Keep 'em coming? Howabout (gasp) Pink Floyd from UmmaGumma, Corporal Cleg -- a song about war, dismembered limbs and drinking: Corporal Clegg had a wooden leg/He won it in the war in nineteen forty four/Corporal Clegg had a medal too/In orange and in blue, he found it in the zoo/Dear oh dear, oh are they really sad for me/Dear oh dear, oh will they really laugh at me/Mrs. Clegg, you must be proud of him/Mrs. Clegg, another drop of gin/Corporal Clegg, umbrella in the rain/He's never been the same but no one is to blame/Corporal Clegg received his medal in a dream/From Her Majesty the Queen, his boots were very clean"

Sex again -- "Brown Sugar" by The Stones.

More sex -- "Fiddle About" from Tommy, by The Who.

General decadance -- most stuff by Gary Glitter, notably "Do You Want To Touch Me There"

Tommy James and the Shondells -- "Hanky Panky" as in 'my baby does the'

Bryan Adams -- "Run to You"

Glorification of Death -- "Ballad of Billy Joe"

Every folk rock revival band who covered "Stagerlee" or "Tom Dooley".

Bobby Darin's version of "Mac the Knife"

Okay, I'm getting bored now.

Why not Death Metal, the lyrics are way sicker. Best example from the mighty Slayer, in it's full glory I give you Angel of Death:

Auschwitz, the meaning of pain The why that I want you to die Slow death, immense decay Showers that cleanse you of your life Forced in Like cattle You run Stripped of Your life's worth Human mice, for the Angel of Death Four hundred thousand more to die Angel of Death Monarch to the kingdom of the dead Sadistic, surgeon of demise Sadist of the noblest blood

Destroying, without mercy To benefit the Aryan race

Surgery, with no anesthesia Fell the knife pierce you intensely Inferior, no use to mankind Strapped down screaming out to die Angel of Death Monarch to the kingdom of the dead Infamous butcher, Angel of Death

Pumped with fluid, inside your brain Pressure in your skull begins pushing through your eyes Burning flesh, drips away Test of heat burns your skin, your mind starts to boil Frigid cold, cracks your limbs How long can you last In this frozen water burial? Sewn together, joining heads Just a matter of time 'Til you rip yourselves apart Millions laid out in their Crowded tombs Sickening ways to achieve The holocaust Seas of blood, bury life Smell your death as it burns Deep inside of you Abacinate, eyes that bleed Praying for the end of Your wide awake nightmare Wings of pain, reach out for you His face of death staring down, Your blood running cold Injecting cells, dying eyes Feeding on the screams of The mutants he's creating Pathetic harmless victims Left to die Rancid Angel of Death Flying free

Strangely this one of my favorite songs of all time. And no this is isn't an incident (say the Stones in 'Midnight Rambler' is as oppressing). Anyway the argument isn't really that interesting, both rap and metal have great sick lyrics, for every 'Angel of Death' there's a 'Mind of a Lunatic' (ace Geto Boys track). Bless 'em all.

Right. The usual suspects. I totally expected Under My Thumb and Guns N' Roses. When either of these artists makes an album that centers around women-hating, I'll say you have a valid point. I don't think either brags about how many shorties they've got. "Stupid Girl" is another Rolling Stones no-no. I think we know, there' s hardly a comparison.

Death metal, like I said, isn't rock.

Not much of a comparison, really.

Public Enemy was maybe the first to play the blame game. And, if you gotta hate Axl, you gotta hate Public Enemy for being racist. I believe they were all along, they just were wise enough to avoid writing it directly in their lyrics, but the us vs. them attitude conveyed it well enough.

Sad, really. You should be able to come up with a lot more. I know I could come up with a few books worth of violent, women-hating rap lyrics. You know this. You just don't want to admit it.

Neuromancer, your continually belligerent stance towards other posters strikes me as odd given that your problem with rap centres on its posturing and attitude. As always with online arguments, the thing to remember is that nothing said here matters and that nobody's mind is going to be changed.

I am perfectly happy to admit a lot of rap lyrics are violent, incidentally. A fair few are misogynistic too - though misogyny is an easy finger to point but a slippery thing to define. Rock is perhaps misogynistic too in subtler but no less influential ways - the first chapters of Joy Press' and Simon Reynolds' 'The Sex Revolts' are very interesting from this p.o.v.

There are volumes of interesting topics struggling to get out in these threads and the constant hostility doesn't seem to be doing them justice. I still think we'd be better off addressing them one at a time and rather more calmly.

tom, i agree regarding the belligerent stance of neuromancer (unfortunately i'm sure this kind of thing will increase as ILM gets bigger)

i'm not sure about people not changing their minds about things though. many people on ILM (and of course many of the sites/blogs) have given me a fresh perspective, and i've changed my mind about things

i think the unfortunate situation is when people get entrenched, or aggressive or whatever, and that kind of stifles the possibility of fresh perspective/changing mind/learning something.

i guess thats discussion vs argument for you

Tom, I don't know if you don't see it, but my beligerent attitude toward posters only appears once they have been beligerent to me. This previoius post in this thread is not beligerent. It's about a topic. Just as my first post about rap was. It was on topic. Then, if you didn't notice, people began making assumptions about me, personally.

It turns out, as you just admitted, rap has a lot of violent, selfish, misogynist lyrics. I believe that's what I said in the beginning. And they are more violent, more misogynist and more selfish than most other music that's ever been made. The scales are largely tipped.

And, if you understand memetics at all, you may understand that seeds have already been planted where they previously were not.

This is not selfish of me.

Why is Death Metal not rock? This would put a new revolutionary spin on rock history. I'll put foward the suggestion (in the kindest possible way) that you discounted death metal for rethorical purposes only (with death metal in the rock camp your argument falls flat, doesn't it?).

Omar, I'm not sure you know what my argument is, since from the beginning I've mentioned the likes of Slayer. It's fantasy vs. reality. Death metal is violence of a completely different sort completely unrelated to reality. I've said this.

Also, if death metal isrock, then why is rap not rock? Are you telling me that the grumbling yelling of death metal is somehow more like singing than rapping? They are both very mathematically rhythmic, rhyming and there is no singing involved.

I'm starting to think that this format - the unthreaded ILM one - is a really bad one for back and forth arguments, even compared to Usenet.

Tom, I really don't want to ruin your site for you. So, if you think I am, let me know and I'll leave. And I won't come back with a different name. IP #'s are easy enough to track, after all. I actually am just airing my views. Then, I'm being attacked. Then, I'm showing why the attack was stupid. I enjoy doing it, but I'll stop, if you want.

I'm not in a mood for a long discussion (nothing personal). If you want to make that interpretation of death metal as fantasy that's okay with me. I'm not sure though that I agree, what with the oft- mentioned 80s hype surrounding metal&violence or Slayer-fans carving the name of the band in their arm. (not to mention the other way around: most playa-fantasies are just that, fantasies).

I'll say that I totally disagree (again in the kindest way ;) with you on the death metal isn't rock music. Death Metal uses guitars/bass/drums that makes it rock (shouting lyrics isn't a factor, that's still singing ;). Also one can easily trace a line from Chuck Berry to The Stones to Black Sabbath to Iron Maiden to Slayer. That spells rock&roll in my book.

Then again 'Angel of Death'*was* released on Def Jam ;)

No, I didnt mean that. Posters here can come and go as they want, of course. I was just thinking aloud that when you get big arguments stretching over 2 or 3 different threads that it becomes very difficult, because a lot of the argument *now* is based on people thinking other people have misunderstood something they said 20 posts ago in a different thread.

To return to the original question:

Wu-Tang Clan, "A Better Tomorrow" In the housing, thousands seen early graves Victims of worldly ways, memories stay engraved All my live brothers, is locked down with high numbers The young hunger, blind to these lies, they die younger In this New World the Order slaughter men, women and children Ten feet gates surround the building keep us sealed in The projects, lifeless like a Vietnam vet Constant war, sever threats of enemy conquest Crooked cops comb my building complex that's in the rumble Streets are like a jungle, can't let my cypher crumble Vivid thoughts, Devils resort to trick knowledge They kick garbage, lust for chicks and quick dollars I know the pain the game bring, I did the same thing Spaced out in the staircase, performing a sting It's hard to keep control, I bless those who seek a scroll Trying to reach a whole nation and break the sleeper hold Not a role model, I walk a hard road to follow I sold bottles of sorrow then chose poems and novels The gospel was told, some souls it swallowed whole Mentally they fold, and they eventually sold Their life and times, deadly like the virus design But too minute to dilute the scientist mind

You can't party your life away Drink your life away Smoke your life away Fuck your life away Dream your life away Scheme your life away Cause your seeds grow up the same way

A voice cries from the wilderness of the North A representation of the families that lost one all victims of incarceration Or other divisions of the family structure Youths are injected with serums that leads to skin irritations, babies being born with disfigurations, experimentations On their faces they bear world relations of mothers that carry the pain of blood-stained streets where sisters mourn and wail Fifth brother's been slain from hails of gunfire It lightly begins to rain, screams of terror are hidden by the passing trains This can't be little Hussein, his uncle cried As he drops to his nephew's side, holding his cane Just give me a name, of who has inflicted this Bitter sickness, and left us to witness

five things:

1) those lyrics are really wrong. 'MZA'? who the fuck is MZA? like, the female rza?

2) this argument could go on for hours with any kind of art because there's nothing inherently violent about any STYLE of music that makes it violent on not, it's the choice of the artist. rapping instead of singing included. all styls of art contain 'positive' and 'negative' material. if someone came across this maybe they would dismiss, i don't know, music forums forever. 'they're full of obscene loudmouthed idiots who scream at each other and don't know how to use bold correctly!'

3) you use the term 'rap retard'. that's sort of negative, eh? seeing as how none of the people on that list are actually mentally retarded, and i'd wager all of them, especially some wu members and redman, are above average intelligence. making violent art doesn't mean you're retarded. kubrick, anyone?

4) you actually took the time to post the lyrics to songs that i'm sure half the people here have heard in one form or another. what are you trying to prove, anyway? rap has violent lyrics!? oh! and then you say 'this is the kind of rap retard i can't stand'. well gee, thanks for clarifying, i'll take them off your fucking christmas list.

5) a few weeks ago i accused mark pitchfork of having an agenda against rap.

One Public Enemy lyric I think needs quoting before I let the Neuromancer drown further in his kneejerkery. Personally I don't buy into *everything* implied here, but it isn't exactly the Neuromancer's stupid assumption of brainlessness.

"Who Stole The Soul"? Once again, this is it Turn it up Here we go But this time the rhyme Gonna ask who did the crime Then let's get down to the nitty-gritty Like I wanna know who Picked Wilson's pocket Afth, he rocked it Fact, he shocked it Same kinna thing they threw at James Brown An what they did to Redd was a shame The bigger the Black get The bigger the feds want A piece of that ... booty Intentional rape system, like we ain't Paid enough in this bitch, that's why I dissed them I learned we earned, got no concern Instead we burned so where the hell is our return? Plain and simp the system's a pimp But I refuse to be a ho Who stole the soul?

Ain't no different Than in South Africa Over here they'll go after ya to steal your soul Like over there they stole our gold Yo they say the Black don't know how to act Cause we're waiting for the big payback But we know it'll never come That's why I say come and get some Why when the Black move in, Jack move out Come to stay Jack mvoes away Ain't we all people? How the hell can a colour be no good for a neighbourhood Help, straighten me out Cause my tribe gets a funny vibe They say I'm wrong for singing a song Without solutions All the dancers answer questions And try to be the best and Let everybody know before I blow For the sake of what's right I wanna know who stole the soul?

We choose to use their ways And holidays notice some of them are better days Invented by those who never repented For the sins within that killed my kin But that's all right I try to do what a brother does But I'll never know if you're my cuz That's why I try my best to unite And damn the rest if they don't like it Banned from many arenas Word from the motherland Has anybody seen her? Jack was nimble, Jack was quick Got a question for Jack, ask him 40 acres and a mule, Jack Where is it, why'd you try to fool the Black? It wasn't you, but you pledge allegiance To the red, white and blue Sucker that stole the soul!

one more point:

it's nice to see everyone jumping to the defense posting positive lyrics, but nothing is getting changed here. neuromancer thinks rap is very very bad, the rest of us (except maybe pinefox) think rap is very very good. more accurately, i think neuromancer looks at the charts and sees a lot of 'violent' rap at the top and a lot of 'non-violent' rock. the fact that he thinks kid rock and limp bizkit are rap and not rock only adds to this. you see, neuromancer, the reason why rap seems to be more about crime and 'living in the streets' and so one (and the subsequent glorification of having money when one becomes a success) is because very often rap artists are VERY POOR. and being VERY POOR usually (but not always, of course) can be marked by crime and violence, which is a tradegy of course. and so music is made ABOUT their lives, which being 'honest' about builds on the male, young, poor mindset of violence, which is undeniable (see: wrestling, videogames, action movies, etc. dumbass heavy metal OR 'gangsta' rap fit right in). certainly a lot of poor can rise above this state, and i think the wu represent that, achieving a sublime abstraction unlike any artists before them, which you sadly overlooked when rushing to post 'violent' lyrics ('i'm causin more family feuds than richard dawson?' if someone was robbing your house and said that, would you be terrified or laughing?). rap is no different than any other art form in that it has the basis to be about ANY subject matter and has shown that on multiple occasions. middle class white people don't want to hear about black urban angst (unless they're 'laughing' at it, as you and thousands of dumbass teenagers do), hence the HUGE POPULARITY of artists like lauryn hill (from a few years ago) with mainstream middle-class white audiences. i'm not turning this into a racial issue, but seeing as most music is about some sort of conflict or angst, your incredible disturbance at this 'rap' music as opposed to other forms can only mean a gap of some sort between you and these artists, and sadly i think it might be race. your argument that 'rap artists' should stop being lazy and 'smoking so many blunts' to get out of poverty and crime sounds awfully like the old kkk argument of genetic inferiority. just please, stop. you're not a bad person, but you're misinformed and need to think more about dismissing an entire vital genre of music. ever. thank you.

It all goes back to my personal reasons for disliking rap: it's violent and egocentric. So you've proven that my "bad rappers" write nice lyrics, too. Still, the majority of the lyrics are negative. I still haven't seen this huge list of 100% nonviolent, nonegocentric rappers. I don't think I ever will, either. Try for, oh I dunno, 50%. That'd even be nice to see.

And Stanley Kubrick does not embody his movies. He makes movies about subjects. I don't think he's ever been the star.

I can't remember if this has been touched on in this or the other related threads on this, but: while I agree that there is an awful lot of violent, misogynist and self-congratulatory rap and hip-hop out there, and whereas I think that neuromancer agrees that there are hip-hop artists out there that don't sound like this, why is it that the stuff that embodies the values that run counter to society sell so many copies? I think part of the reason for the proliferation of this stuff is that people are buying it, either for the shock value of it (piss off your parents, just like your parents used to do with their loud rock) or because they also feel disenfranchaised somehow (and for this I'm thinking of the First Nations population back in my hometown, who literally cannot get a break no matter how motivated they are)?

And it also begs the question: what does the target audience buy this material for? I saw a stat recently that the majority of the hip-hop-buying audience were white and middle-class. Does anyone have any official numbers on this? If the record industry pumps out stuff because of demand, and the majority of the audience for this are young white suburban males, shouldn't that be the target of derision rather than the genre itself? There have been attempts to release positive material, like Arrested Development, but even when they catch on, they're generally spit upon shortly thereafter as novelty, on for the sin of not being "authentic". So, who's really to blame?

Also, there seems to be a deliberate avoidance of the obvious: 95% of rap centers around rappers who are "hard" and demand respect (or fear, not sure which), with the exception of the "hippy" rap acts like PM Dawn and De La Soul.

Funny how you can play semantics, isn't it? Fact still remains: I'm right.

Ethan, white kids like rap and smoke blunts, too. A lot. I guess I am racist against white people, too, huh? Way to cop out. Matter of fact, all of the popular white rap acts I know of disgust me (except Beasties, I guess).

The reason there hasn't been a deluge of positive lyrics posted is because the people you're arguing against don't particularly care about proving you wrong.

facts, schmacts. you can use "facts" to prove anything that's remotely true. 75% of people know that.

i am SO TIRED of talking about this. can we just get back to naming our favorite wu members or something? but i felt the need to make one final point: practically any music genre will be purchased by a majority of middle class whites because that is the majority in the nation's music- buying population. rap/r&b (industry shorthand for 'black music') is officially the most popular music in american, and since the people who buy the most music in america are white people who have enough money to buy music, they make up the majority. that doesn't mean you're not racist if you dismiss 'black' music and all it's fans with a wave of your hand.

Ethan, I didn't dismiss black music with a wave of my hand. I dismissed rap music. There is a difference, so get a grip.

Dan, I'd say the outpour of posts proves people do want to prove me wrong. There's simply not enough rap acts out there to make an opposing argument. Hell, I can find "hard", egocentric behavior in RunDMC and Beastie Boys, too, but I'll forgive them because I think it's in good taste.

Interesting to note: DMX is from Yonkers and was the self-declared bad influence of his neighborhood. If you've ever been to Yonkers, you know that he was not some poor kid who never had opportunity. He's simply a selfish prick. And we all know Vanilla Ice was from da streets, aight?

As I said, rappers who suddenly turn "positive" usually started out proving how "hard" they are. When the positive vibe fails to produce $, they reminisce about how hard they had to be to get where they are or move to some other harder record label and mutate again.

And, yes, after much circling, we're back at the beginning and you've gotta admit I proved I have grounds for preferring rock over rap on a majority vs. majority basis. Or else, where's the list of positive rappers. No lyrics, just rappers who haven't shown themselves to be violent, egocentric or misogynist. Thanks a pantload.

Personally this fiasco has again proven that discussions are overrated and never lead to any change of viewpoints. Boring ego- games, tactical avoidance of counter-arguments and what a waste of some brilliant reasoning. It's classic or dud for me from now on.

I've given you a couple of lists, you know. Or are you looking for a list of current top 40 artists? Because I'll run down the current top 40. I don't know much about City High other than that their current single "What Would You Do?" decries the type of lifestyle you're against. If you count ranting against a woman who you've caught cheating on you, I guess Mystikal's rap in "Stutter" fails. Nelly's looking for an easy woman out at the club he can take home in "Ride Wit Me". Crazy Town's "Butterfly" is a full-out heart-on- sleeve love letter. Ja Rule's "Put It On Me" is another heart-on- sleeve love letter, this time begging an ex to take him back. Missy Elliot's "Get Ur Freak On" is so lyrically devoid of meaning that it boggles the mind. R-Kelly and Jay-Z's collaboration on "Fiesta" is about getting dressed up and going to a party. Outkast's "So Fresh, So Clean" is another ode to the weekend party. QB's "Oochie-Wally" is a ridiculous ode to easy women.

That's 9 songs on the US top 40, out of which 1 is meaningless (could be considered egomaniacal, I guess), 2 are about partying (which could be stretched to be misogynistic), 1 is out-and-out nasty, 1 comes right out and says, "Stop wallowing in your situation and find a positive way to help yourself," 1 dumps a woman for cheating (not misogynistic by any stretch of the imagination), and 3 are simple, traditional love songs. Even allowing for wide definitions of "violent" (which, by the way, none of these songs are), "misogynistic" (1 definitely, with 2 more if you bend over backwards and squint), and "egomaniacal" (1, assuming that you decide the lyrics are actually talking about something), the majority of the rap on the top 40 is NOT what you've described.

Okay, so I can't count. The Nelly song is mislabelled as a love song in my final tally when it clearly isn't (although, looking through the lyrics again, it's much more focused on partying in general than using women). So, it really depends on if you label all raps about going to parties/nightclubs and meeting women to be misogynistic.

I mentioned Mos Def before, but here's a link with a "pantload" o'lyrics. I'm sure you'll find stuff in here that is dubious, but I find the overwhelming majority of the content on the Black on Both Sides album to be thoughtful, intelligent, and coming from a positive place:
http://www.ohhla.com/YFA_blackstar.html
It may not change your mind, neuromancer, but at the very least I'd like to thank you for forcing me to rediscover how much I like this album. Thanks!

What about Mystikal's "Aint' gonna see tomorrow"?
How about Nelly's 'Greed Hate Envy"?
How about Jay Z's "Big Pimpin'"?
We are not trying to figure out whether or not they can make a song here and there that are exceptions, but whether the artists themselves are exceptions, since they make entire albums that represent their entire character.
You lose.

After all, what does it really prove when a love song is countered with a pimpin' song and a song about faith in god is followed by a track about drug dealing, greed and violence?

Neuro -- go and pick yourself up a copy of "Black Star" by Mos Def and Taleb Kwali. And then some KRS-1.

Sterling, what I've heard of Mos Def does not bother me and I remember thinking he was intelligent. KRS-One is sorta rasta, isn't he? Religiously motivated, yet not hypocritical like DMX, Snoop, etc.? Given that you've actually suggested some that are exceptions, I'd be willing to believe you know what you're talking about. I'd also be willing to believe you know what I'm talking about, which is nice. I'm glad there are positive rap artists, I just wish there were more. That doesn't mean I like "rap" more than "rock" as a whole. Despite the fact that KRS-One is positive, it still centers around negative subjects, which is one of the things I don't like about rap. It's kind of like if you're not part of the problem you're part of the solution... know what I mean? I'd rather avoid songs about "the problem" altogether, if the problems are thieves, drug dealers, people with guns, or playas and pimps.

i *like* violent and egotistical lyrics, whether in n.w.a., odb, morrissey, or big black. not all the time but in their place, done with humour and creative music, they can be fun, exciting, intense, and cathartic. violence is part of our consciousness and emotional life. why deny it? heavens, music is an *imaginative* activity. why should characters in songs to which i listen act with the morals to which i subscribe in real life?

Neuro asks what it proves when a love song is followed by a hateful one, when a religious song is followed by one about drugs, and killing, etc. Well, it doesn't prove anything. Which I think, is sort of the point. Art shouldn't have to prove anything. That very range is what I'm talking about -- the ability to take multiple perspectives and encompass a range of society. This is a very Bakhtinian idea of what great art is -- dialogism. Also, Neuro raise that he didn't want to here "the problem" discussed from any perspective. This is, I guess, what I mean by a broader range of social depth. That it actually addresses those elements of society which other music does not. And some are put off by this, but I find it important. Big Pimpin' by the way is a great track, with Timbaland bringing in early-90s flute samples etc. and really showing off his stylistic range. Snoopy Track, off Vol. 3 as well, seems to be so OTT as to be tongue-in-cheek.

Sterling, if a "wack rapper" makes a "sweet song", why would I want to spend money on someone who boasts of murdering people on the next track? I might as well support Charles Manson.

I guess I can sum up by saying in order to compare rap to rock on equally negative terms, death metal had to be invoked. This is saying something, since death metal is also a joke made by retards. No rock music ever speaks of murder so flippantly, frequently and descriptively, unless you include death metal.

However, if you want to consider anything made with a guitar "rock", then rock has got to win over rap, hands down. There is just more options with actual music and singing. Hell, you can even combine rock and rap, as someone joked, and make a real kickass breed of shitrock!

but charles manson was a rock musician...

Actually, he was a folk musician. Oh wait, folk requires a guitar, doesn't it?!

Just a few questions for the neuromancer. I'm not trying to get in a big argument with you, so don't bother having a go at me in your reply. I am genuinely interested in this. You say that you don't want music to discuss "the problem" (I'm assuming by this you mean the negative aspects of society, culture, whatever). Do you extend this to all art forms (high and low, if you like)? At what point do you draw the line? At what point in the scale of angst/negativity/anti-social behaviour between, say, the "Help" and "Fuck Tha Police" (or either side of that scale if you like)? If, as you say, you'd rather avoid that, don't you think that you might be missing out on music (or literature, films, paintings, etc.) which might be valuable from an entertainment or artistic perspective? If you're assuming that none of this product (whatever medium) is fiction, aren't you being pessimistic towards the artists?

If audiences are actively searching for thuggishness in their hip hop artists, why aren't the Lifers Group a household name?

As a side note, I'd always be suspicious of statistics on racial/social backgrounds of record buyers. How many times when you've bought a record have you been asked what class you come from? How many times have you seen record shop assistants noting down the colour of your skin?

(On a positive note, if there's one thing I've learnt from these threads, it's that you're not the 14 year-old kid I took you for, Neuromancer. I'm surprised.)

I have to say, I agree with neuromance and think you can't really fault his reasoning. He's even kind of hero or something to care about misogyny & hate in any music. So few do it seems. And hating rap isn't racist any more than hating stupid women's magazines is sexist - it's goofy reasoning. Like rap defines what it means to be black! Not all black people love rap, for christ sake. If a bunch of white people went out and created a whole art around racism would it be racist against whites to hate it? Having said that though, maybe all rap isn't hate-filled sexist, shallow crap. Maybe that's just the kind we hear because that's what's being sold down our throats. Maybe we need a rap revolution. Like when grunge challenged cock rock, or something. I didn't read this whole thread, but it seems interesting. Hope I'm not repeating.