The inconsistency of Rap albums

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No other genre can put filler on an album like rap: they are usually 20+ tracks long, including ridiculous interludes, skits, etc. It seems that as a result, this music tends to be better suited in the single format. I think the same could be said for a lot of pop music actually. Every year, our favorite singles list differs completely from our favorite albums, rarely does our favorite album have one of our favorite singles (not always true, this is a generalization, chastise at will). I am jsut wondering what people think of this. For example, I love the singles from Nelly's Country Grammar, but the rest of the album is lame and mindless. Do these musicians just focus on putting together a few top-notch singles and then filling up the rest of the album with drivel? It seems that rock albums tend to have less filler than rap albums overall. I guess the commercial prospects of certain artists leads them to be more single conscious than album conscious, or is the album as a complete artform dying in all aspects? Forgive the generalizations, I just want ILM to love me.

John S., Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Give this chump a banana now! What insight!

Julio Desouza, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

But it asks a decent question, namely: Why must hip hop albums be so long!?!

I don't think I own a single hip hop album that clocks in under 60 minutes (wait, Iron Flag does, doesn't it?). I don't understand the "fill the whole cd" obsession in hip hop. Does anyone have a decent explanation?

Miranda, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Yo Julio, this wasn't meant to be some profound insight...I was just asking the question what's up with all the filler on rap albums. Got an answer chump?

John S., Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

If certain types of rock records seem to have less "filler" than certain types of hip-hop records it's likely because it's rock listeners who are obsessively concerned with the idea of "filler" in the first place, having been initiated into the whole mythologizing of "classic" "seminal" rock records that are "less a collection of songs than a considered and coherent statement about the alienation of man etc. etc."

Whereas hip-hop records are looser and more personality-based: enjoying the "ridiculous skit" means dropping the arms-crossed "I am highly critical so please impress me with your art" stance and basically inviting the MC as a person to goof off along with you. Same goes for rock listeners detecting "bad tracks" everywhere, as we're casting about for tight blazing winners but resisting the possibility of just, you know, liking the MC's persona and being interested in what he/she has to say.

Also note that the rap "market" -- by which I mean not the actual buyers of the records but the central group that the artists perceive the records to be sort of aimed at -- consists of a whole lot of kids who are (a) quite young and (b) not wealthy. A lot of them would rather get an album + extra crap than pay the same amount of money for just the album. Rock albums do the exact same thing, except the extra tracks are "important" "revealing" demos, live versions, and unreleased intended b-sides from 1973.

nabisco%%, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, it's a pretty airtight argument that you'd rather have more there, even if that means some of it is less good. Hip-hop fans are less susceptible to the idea that the album must be this tight solid-structured "work of art," having been told from the beginning that hip-hop isn't "art" or even "music" anyway.

(The indie difference-splitting on this one has been to include a separate disc for the extra crap, mainting the idea of the album itself as form-fitting and inviolable: environmentalists should hate this, though.)

nabisco%%, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Its the 'more value for money' thing, you know. It's the same reason that there are double albs in rock, or triple concept alb LPs in prog days. The band in question is indeed testing it's ability to produce quality w/quantity.

Julio Desouza, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

The inconsistency of baseball games

No other sport can put minutes of nothing definitive happening in a game like baseball: they are usually 4+ hours long, including ridiculous interludes, stretches, etc. It seems that as a result, this sport tends to be better suited in the highlight format. I think the same could be said for a lot of sports actually. Every year, our favorite plays differ completely from our favorite games, rarely does our favorite game include one of our favorite plays (not always true, this is a generalization, chastise at will). I am jsut wondering what people think of this. For example, I love the plays from Boston-New York game 2, but the rest of the game was lame and mindless. Do these athletes just focus on putting together a few top-notch double-plays and then filling up the rest of the game with drivel? It seems that basketball games tend to have less filler than baseball games overall. I guess the commercial prospects of certain players leads them to be more spectacular-play-conscious than game-conscious, or is the team game dying in all aspects? Forgive the generalizations, I just want ILM to love me.

Tracer Hand, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Afetr this post, Tracer gets our unconditional love.

Julio Desouza, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

translation --> I like the filler, because it means i don't have pay attention for like 45 uninterrupted minutes. i like baseball for the same reason - i.e. you can do other stuff and relax and then when something good or exciting happens it's a nice change and you can focus on it.

Tracer Hand, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

god i make music sound like behavioral therapy, or farting or something

Tracer Hand, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i think what i mean is that, uh, i agree with nabisco%%

Tracer Hand, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Got to remember: hip hop is so much more about personality than "rock". If a guy wants to spend 20 minutes of my time on a rap album playing his pizza order at double speed six times, that's going to make more sense to the context of the album than it will on any rock album.

Dom Passantino, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

As though we should restrict this argument exclusively to Hip Hop. Let's make a sweeping, yet correct, statement: All contemporary music is in essence all filler. A mere capatist medium to chanel our aggression into something less damaging than, say, war.

Adorno, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

B-but Teddy, don't THEY *want* war? o-or do they?

Sterling Clover, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

heh, wiesengrund said "chanel"

S. Krakauer, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

But adorno- certain forms of music can begin to question the capitalist system.

For instance, when Paul Rutherford goes through a solo in the 'Gentle Harm of the Burgoisie' I can see through the media lies. He is like a madman shouting as I walk to Euston station every evening, he has more 'sense' than the thousands who go, sheep-like to work and back every day.

JUlio Desouza, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Tradition dictates that a playa who's made it big has to share his wealth with his friends. Hence, filling up that CD with sub-par tracks featuring his brother/cousin/girlfriend/labelmate/whoever in his posse makes sense for the artist. Artist happy, friends happy, marketing department happy.

Siegbran Hetteson, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

No other sport can put minutes of nothing definitive happening in a game like baseball: they are usually 4+ hours long

Ever watched a game of cricket Tracer? I think you might like it.

OK, so I might have publically gone on record as favouring 30 minute albums, but the filler thing on rap records doesn't really bother me. It just makes me reach for the program button that little bit earlier. I mean, there's only about 25 or so albums that I always listen to all the way through anyway.

RickyT, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

heh in the pre-CD days no one would put on as many skits as are on, say, Doc's Da Name by Redman. you'd have to get up too much.

Tracer Hand, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

heh it's not funny cause it's TRUE (last night was a get up and change the track FIESTA at Chez Hand, just ask my neighbors)

Tracer Hand, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

in the pre-CD days, there wasn't fucking ROOM to put ANY skits on records unless you were Todd Rundgren or something. skits are purely CD-age; they didn't exist before, and for the most part they shouldn't exist now, either....

M Matos, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, and: "is the album as a complete artform dying in all aspects" is a tilted question to begin with, insofar as who's to say the rock conception of "the album as a complete artform" is any more workable than the hip-hop one? (Use of the word "complete" is funny: "they're not complete if they lack filler!")

This goes back to what I was saying about inviting the MC into your space: you are getting a different and sort of more improvisational or experimental completeness, in which the MC has to keep producing text on loads of subjects in loads of settings, has to work with loads of different collaborators to various extents, has to find interesting proteges to introduce you to, etc. ... It's the director's cut, wherein the sub-par extra footage gives you a better and more interesting and actually more thorough and coherent sense of the filmmakers than the tightened-up version -- plus you think they're cool and are happy to see what else they tried, even if it didn't work so well.

nabisco%%, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with what a lot of Nabisco%% says, but let me add a couple things to his earlier post. One, plenty of hip-hop fans are attached to the "complete album" idea; I think it's reductionist to say they're not, just as it's reductionist to say that all rock fans expect "the great album" all the time. I realize you're trying to delineate the difference between rockist and non-rockist ideology, but I think that could have been clearer.

The other thing is that I don't think hip-hop fans not expecting perfect album has so much to do with their being told hip-hop isn't art or music--at this point, a lot of the time they ARE being told that, and this has been the case for years (at least if they're into music discourse, which you pretty much have to be to give this stuff any thought at all). I think the difference is that hip-hop operates, like dance music, under what you might call a mixtapist ideology; albums are mere carriers for songs that DJs define in clubs, on the radio, on tapes etc. (and by the way, Nabisco%%, did you get the email I sent you last week?)

M Matos, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

As simple but for me true point -

When I listened mostly to rock and guitar pop albums, even though I liked other genres I tended to dismiss a lot of non-single tracks as filler. Nowadays I listen mostly to those other genres and lo and behold I have the EXACT SAME REACTION to almost all the guitar pop or rock records I hear, or even buy - loads of the non-singles strike me as lame, thrown-together, indulgent, hookless, etc. etc., all the criticisms levelled at "filler". This leads me to suspect that "filler" is the stuff you pass over when you're listening to stuff you're not used to (or you've forgotten how to be used to).

Tom, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

When bands sell recs, they get really confident, think everything they do is gold, etc. That's when they come out with double alb (CD or LP) and therefore you inevitably get filler and I find that the more popular the band is, the worst the alb is (eg Mellon Collie by smashing pumpkins).

Julio Desouza, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

this is not true to other bands like husker du, who came out w/Zen Arcade as they weren't popular on the scale of the pumpkins (who sold far more).

Julio Desouza, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Something that I haven't seen adressed here:

Hip-Hop had its switch from a singles medium to an album medium just like Rock did. I mean, albums by the likes of Grandmaster Flash, Afrika Bambaata, The Funky Four + 1, Spoony Gee or Kurtis Blow are at times surprisingly good (much like albums by Little Richard, Buddy Holly, etc.) but we in general truly remember them for is pretty much the singles.

But that's changed- if we're talking about De La Soul, Public Enemy or The Wu Tang Clan, the first thing that springs to mind (for me at least) are albums like "Three Feet High & Rising", "It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back" and "Enter The Wu", not singles like "Me, Myself & I", "Bring The Noise" or "Method Man" (great as those are).

I think that many of today's Rap artists DO strive for albums in the coherent artistic statement, rockist definition of the term. Heck, many Rap albums from the past ten years are *concept* albums ("Only Built 4 Cuban Linx" and "A Prince Amongst Thieves" come to mind), and what's more "rockist" than that? Skits aren't detrimental to that mindset, either- remember, Styx opened the concerts for their Kilroy thang with 15 minutes of dialogue!

Of course, this doesn't apply for all rappers- Nelly is no more likely to be interested in showing a "flowing" artistic statement than, say, The Cars were. But I do think that alot of the rappers today at least strive to make albums in the traditional sense.

Which is not to say that their approach is identical to that of Rock artists- the obsession with guest stars, for instance, is a major difference (unless ya wanna compare that to early 70's "supergroups" a la CSN&Y)

Daniel_Rf, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Styx opened the concerts for their Kilroy thang with 15 minutes of dialogue

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes just thinking about it makes the universe seem to radiate goodness - Tommy Shaw and Dennis DeYoung in the oppressive heat of the Texas summer before an audience who'd come mainly to see Ted Nugent - going through with the opening sketch anyhow and getting roundly booed - in robot costumes & skintight suits - "But Mr Roboto," as Shaw remembers ruefully, "What about the music?" God thanks for bringing it up, it is the single greatest thing ever in the history of music

John Darnielle, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah yes, "Behind The Music: Styx". Possibly the most entertaining 40 min (or whatever it is) I have ever experienced on TV.

Remember the righteous Rocker member's comments? "It used to be like, yeah, Styx, buy the t-shirt and rock on!" Or when he joined the Ted Nungent band and The Nuge smashed his guitar while he was playing (I think) the intro to "Babe", and the rest of the band found that hurtful? Or how happy they were that they got a revival, courtesy of "South Park" and "Freaks & Geeks"?? Shit, we need to start a thread...

Daniel_Rf, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

What's this talk of "inconsistency"? All rap is filler.

Flava, Monday, 1 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

How do we, as listener, decide what is filler?
Bandmate to other bandmate: "Let us make some filler so our fans can push the forward button."
Other bandmate: "Good idea, let us just do some free form improv ditty."
"Oh no, let us do a deep meaningful track about not serving the capitalist beast but with nonsensical lyrics. This way our fans can remain asleep.... or something, dude."
"Yeah dude, makes sense. Let's have a beer."

Adorno, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Albums aren't really the 'proper' format for hip-hop anyway. Singles is where it's at, or if you insist on 60 minutes +, mixtapes/cd's. Find a dj you like and get his shit, narrimean?

tyler, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

All hip hop records are lacking by dint of the lack of the welcome moderating presence of Sophie Ellix-Bextor with her golden stream of vocalise.

Sophie #1 Phan, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

The last three hip hop albums I bought - Mystikal's Tarantula< /i>, Wu-Tang Clan's Iron Flag and Foxy Brown's Broken Silence - all have slighty stronger and slightly weaker tracks, but there's hardly a singles/filler divide. Even the albums you'd expect to be like that - Dirty South stuff being a prime candidate - is often the exact opposite. What frequently frustrates me about dirty south stuff, for example, is how consistent it is, with a surprisingly high amount of solid tracks but few absolute mindblowers.

If anything the perception of a hits/filler binary arises from a) use of multiple producers, where one or some clearly beats the others (this is equally true of R&B); or b) highly divergent musical styles (this is more true of R&B; or c) the appearance guest rappers who you like/don't like. Rarely though do I find it to be the actual "songs" (if you can call them that) to be the problem.

Tim, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

dammit.

Tim, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

May I point out that underground hip-hop album contain much less filler. May I also point out that they're much, much worse.

B-Rad, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I really like skits.

Dan I., Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I really like this thread.

zebedee, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I really like Skitz, but I haven't got his new album.

Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I really like Skitch Henderson. was never the same after he left The Tonight Show, though....

M Matos, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

All hip hop records are lacking by dint of the lack of the welcome moderating presence of Sophie Ellix-Bextor with her golden stream of vocalise.

Yes, more rappers need Sophie to come down to the studio and piss all over their tracks.

Dan Perry, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)


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