The Uses of Pastiche

And an answer: whatever pastiche does for the listener, it might be a resource for the artist. I think that writing ackknowledged pastiches may be a lot easier, in some ways, than writing stuff that somehow feels the need to claim originality and authenticity.

Problematic words, maybe. Maybe pastiche can be just as 'authentic' as anything else. Maybe, in a different way, it can be as 'original' as anything else.

I've got nothing against pastiche per se, but it often results in records that are soulless. Not that that soulless records are bad per se either , at least when that's the intent of their creators. Where pastiche sucks is when it's done for some kind of misplaced cool kudos that ends up making the record just irritating. Like some more recent Belle & Sebastian tracks.

You can play with genres but if it's done in either too reverential or smug a way it ends up dud. The worst tracks on 69 Love Songs are those which fall too well into the smug category.

Generally, reverential - bad; referential - sometimes good.

I do like hearing pastichey records a few years down the line, though. It's like watching costume dramas made in the 70s. Evidence of one's own time is pretty hard to shake off.

Pastiche is a vital tool in any artists box (?). Many musicians I know have tried to write a song in the style of, either to 'make it big' or flex their 'chops'. A friend recently tried to pastiche Timbaland's production style and was told - 'ugh, whats that, the new '80s revival' - so had he failed ? - IN HIS EYES HE HAD even though the listener like all the rest of us, was hemmed in by a frame of reference. If Starsailor want to write Verve songs are they successful in their execution ? My greatest adversary maintains that nowadays originality comes with utilisation of new technology ahead of everyone else -eg. early jungle and that anyone grappling with existing tech is involved in pastiche.

Nick - very interested in your answer. I think the point about the historical character of pastiche is especially acute - but what examples do you have in mind? Phil Collins' 'You Can't Hurry Love', maybe? I saw the video of Bowie's 'Absolute Beginners' recently, and that looked like dated pastiche (but - as I think you imply - charming with it).

Your view on the B&S stuff is fairly unusual - I *think*. I'm not sure - I mean, you don't like 'Dirty Dream #II', do you, when lots of other people do. I think I side with you on this one, for what it's worth. But it's not easy to express, this problem of people doing pastiche to be cool (hey, cross-reference with Cool thread. Pastiche to be Cool is Uncool).

69 Love Songs - what's smug about it?

If pastiche is just a matter of copying elements from other artists or genres, then I think it's inevitable, in a medium like pop which is vital and opportunistic, that people are going to be doing it all the time. The Stones pastiched John Lee Hooker, Eminem pastiches rap, Ladytron pastiche Kraftwerk, etc.

It then becomes a question of whether the pastiche is sterile, just a bad photocopy of other people's work, or whether there's some sort of interesting fusion going on that makes the resulting work more than the sum of its parts. To me, Tom Lehrer is more interesting than the folk songs he pastiches, and 'Hair', a pastiche-filled satire on the hippy movement, is a lot more interesting than The Grateful Dead.

I think there's something in that last point - that a pastiche can be *more* interesting than the 'raw material' on which it draws.

My greatest adversary maintains that nowadays originality comes with utilisation of new technology ahead of everyone else -eg. early jungle and that anyone grappling with existing tech is involved in pastiche.

I disagree so virulently with your adversary's analysis, geordie. I sense that kind of outlook popping up every so often on ILM in more half-hearted forms. In the pure form in which you've stated it, it seems so crazy as to be almost attractive.

pf - I agree with josh's thoughts on the worst crimes of 69 Love Songs. 'Love Is Like Jazz' everyone seems to dislike, but I don't like things like 'The Night You Can't Remember' either. Can't remember what josh said about that one.

Nick: Josh who? I'm afraid I don't know what his thoughts are. I don't even know what *your* thoughts are as much as I'd like.

I'm not sure that there are any crimes on 69 Love Songs. (Stevie T is the most adept at making the necessary arguments here.) 'Love Is Like Jazz' is a lot better live than on record (but I'm prepared to admit that that's irrelevant). Actually I think that 'The Night You Can't Forget' is overrated too. Maybe we agree a bit after all.

re. your little debate with Geordie - what is it about his argument that you find so preposterous? I'm not sure I've grasped the issues here yet. Where I think I do disagree with Geordie's pal is re. the idea that anyone who's not up to date is making pastiche. But now I come to think of it, even that (insulting) idea has a kind of logic to it.

Wait a minute, we're both differently wrong about the title of that song. It's called 'The Night I Can't Forget', isn't it? Can it be merely coincidental that the title that no-one can ever remember is about (not) forgetting?

Pastiche - not inherently bad, but often abused. Like cliches, it can succinctly describe something that otherwise might have taken too much explanation. Or on the flip side, be glib and meaningless, leaving the audience feeling short-changed.

Pinefox: it is "The Night You Can't Remember". And no I don't like it that much, either.

How can I respond to this thread in symbolic terms?

OK: one genre, British glam-rock.

good pastiche: The Auteurs' "Your Gang, Our Gang"

bad pastiche: Morrissey, "Glamorous Glue".

Pinefox, I think Nick might be referring to my Magnetic Fields love-fest, which occurred during February and March on my blog.

As for the song in question - at the time I wasn't really thinking of it as a pastiche, probably because I'm mostly unacquainted with whatever genre it's supposed to be (as I take it from what Nick wrote) a pastiche of.

My definition of pastiche would include a kind of sterility: I take the word to mean an empty facsimile of an earlier style. If an artist achieves an interesting fusion of styles or contexts, I would tend to think of that more as referencing, or having been influenced, and no longer pastiche.

The point of pastiche, by this definition, would be intellectual / technical exercise or (perhaps more interestingly) to allow some kind of engagement with the emptiness.

To pick up Nicky D's point about Belle and Sebastian, I can't bear the French pop pastiches on that last LP. Dirty Dream #2, on the other hand, doesn't feel like pastiche to me, but rather a pop song heavily influenced by northern soul.

there's also the times when pastiche is attempted but fails, or hits wide of the mark.

i'm thinking here of The Primadonnas 'She Had Alien Written All Over Her'. The Primadonnas were/are Texans who pretend to be British, from Sussex to be specific, with faux-accents and the rest.

i don't know exactly what aspects of Britain they're trying to pastiche. britpop? but ends up as the odd hybrid of The Seeds, Gary Numan, Depeche Mode and Blur. god, i'm making it sound really bad, it is a great single. whatever they were trying to do doesn't really work, but the single does.

has anyone here heard the single and could make a better job of describing it?

the ruben & the jets doo-wop pastiche is remarkably reverential but this doesn't detract in the slightest from a very good album.

van dyke parks. discover america. thoughts?

Personally, I love VDP's "Be Careful" and "Ode To Tobago" at least partially because they sound *meant*; of course pastiche is there, but it is not all those tracks are.

I take your point, Tim - but 'empty' is a difficult word. I suppose that I don't quite agree with you: I think that a very deliberate attempt to emulate something else can result in significant work. Or maybe you think that too?

I do think that, yes. Although I can't think of many times that I'd enjoy it very much.

It can also result in a rubbish country song which only one person likes. Generally a bad thing. Stick to what you're good at is what I say. But then I'm not very good at anything, so what shall I do? Which night was it again?