Eno Vs. Cale (as producers)

Eno produced the unused first album by Television.

JCale produced the first albums by Happy Mondays and Squeeze.

Eno also continues to produce U2.

Devo debut + 2nd-4th Talking Heads albums -- Eno wins.

Dunno, Cale seems more like a laissez faire kinda producer -- does he have a distinctive sound on his productions? Always liked the story of Cale pounding on the door when Eno and Talking Heads were meeting up, yelling at Eno "Don't steal them from me!!" Guess Brian did not pay attention to that one. But it would've been interesting if Cale had worked with Talking Heads. Maybe not better, but interesting.

John Cale also Produced

Nico
The Modern Lovers

And now, using research materials not just my memory...

Cale has produced or collaborated with Lou Reed, Nico, John Cage, Cranes, Nick Drake, Kevin Ayers, Brian Eno, Patti Smith, The Stooges, The Modern Lovers, Squeeze, James Dean Bradfield, and Siouxsie & the Banshees.

yeah can we see some CVs please - Eno's done more crap I think

Dunno, Cale seems more like a laissez faire kinda producer -- does he have a distinctive sound on his productions?

Depends how important distinctive sounds are. I see nothing wrong with a Jimmy Iovine type who acts as overseer.

Eno may be more "innovative" or whatever but Cale's probably actually produced more classic records

I mean c'mon the first Stooges, Modern Lovers, Nico, and Happy Mondays albums?! that's a crazy diverse and seminal run of stuff

I'm thinking Cale on this one, tbh.

Cale in a close one.

Cale's Production CV according to wiki

1974 Fear John Cale
1975 New & Rediscovered Musical Instruments David Toop & Max Eastley
1976 Music from the Penguin Cafe The Penguin Cafe Orchestra
Voices and Instruments Jan Steele/John Cage
1977 Ultravox! Ultravox
1978 More Songs About Buildings and Food Talking Heads
No New York various artists
The Pavilion of Dreams Harold Budd
Q: Are We Not Men? A: We Are Devo! Devo
1979 Fear of Music Talking Heads
1980 Ambient 3: Day of Radiance Laraaji
Remain in Light Talking Heads
1981 The Pace Setters Edikanfo
1984 Dune Toto/Brian Eno
The Unforgettable Fire U2
1985 Hybrid Michael Brook
Wide Awake in America U2
1986 Power Spot Jon Hassell
1987 The Joshua Tree U2
1988 Flash of the Spirit Jon Hassell
1989 Words for the Dying John Cale
Zvuki Mu Zvuki Mu
1991 Achtung Baby U2
Exile Geoffrey Oryema
1993 Laid James
Temple Jane Siberry
When I Was a Boy Jane Siberry
Zooropa U2
1994 Bright Red Laurie Anderson
Wah Wah James
1995 Original Soundtracks 1 Passengers
Outside David Bowie
1998 Nomad Soul Baaba Maal
1999 Millionaires James
2000 All That You Can't Leave Behind U2
Faith and Courage Sinéad O'Connor
Now, Always, Never Sikter
2001 Pleased to Meet You James
2008 Everything That Happens Will Happen Today David Byrne
Viva la Vida or Death and All His Friends Coldplay
Safe Trip Home Dido
2009 No Line on the Horizon U2
2009 Come to Life Natalie Imbruglia

dammit that was ENO's CV!

Cale's Production CV according to wiki - for real this time (looks light to me)

The Stooges (by The Stooges) (Elektra) 1969
The Marble Index (by Nico) 1969
Desertshore (by Nico) 1970
Jennifer (by Jennifer Warnes) 1972
The End (by Nico) 1973
Chunky, Novi & Ernie (by Chunky, Novi and Ernie) (co-produced with Ted Templeman) (Warners) 1973
Horses (by Patti Smith) (Arista) 1975
The Modern Lovers (by The Modern Lovers) (Beserkley) 1976
UK Squeeze (by UK Squeeze) 1978 - in US - Squeeze (by Squeeze) - in UK
Camera Obscura (by Nico) 1985
Squirrel and G-Man Twenty Four Hour Party People Plastic Face Carnt Smile (White Out)(by Happy Mondays) 1987
Louise Féron (by Louise Féron) (Virgin) 1991
The Rapture (by Siouxsie & the Banshees) (Wonderland) 1994
The Boxing Mirror (by Alejandro Escovedo) 2006
Soundtrack for films Basquiat, American Psycho and Smokin' Aces.

sorry, cut & paste confusion

wtf was Eno thinking with Jane Siberry

maybe.

Didn't Cale produce the final Jesus Lizard record?

Anyway, don't forget that Eno produced, um, his own records. So: Eno wins.

didn't Cale produce the self-titled Velvet Underground record too?

i mean the banana one, not the black one

Tom Wilson produced that one except for one track "produced" by Warhol.

yeah, of course.

Someone help me out here. I could have sworn there was a story about Cale barely producing the first Stooges record, and in fact hating the band. The story goes that he more or less wasn't paying attention until the band started vamping on some Zeppelin riff, and then he perks up and goes "that's it! record that!" Am I thinking of Cale/Stooges? Modern Lovers? Or is it some other producer/band combo?

Stooges vamping on Zepellin seems improbable

Tom Wilson's CV ain't too shabby either. There's an Eric Burdon and The Animals comp that has cringe-worthy liner notes by Burdon about how awesome it was having "a real spade" in the studio fot those sessions.

1956: Sun Ra: Sun Song
1956: Cecil Taylor: Jazz Advance
1961 Sun Ra: The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra
1963 Bob Dylan: The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan (4 tracks, uncredited)
1964 Bob Dylan: The Times They Are A-Changin'
1964 Bob Dylan: Another Side of Bob Dylan
1965 Simon and Garfunkel: Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M.
1965 Simon and Garfunkel: "The Sound of Silence" single
1965 Bob Dylan: Bringing It All Back Home
1965 Bob Dylan: "Like a Rolling Stone" single (also on the 1965 album Highway 61 Revisited, otherwise produced by Bob Johnston)
1966 Mothers of Invention: Freak Out!
1966 Eric Burdon & The Animals: Eric Is Here
1967 Mothers of Invention: Absolutely Free
1967 The Blues Project: Projections
1967 The Velvet Underground: The Velvet Underground & Nico (as post-production editor, remixer, and producer of the track "Sunday Morning")
1967 Nico: Chelsea Girl
1968 The Velvet Underground: White Light/White Heat

xpost - I don't know about the Zep vamping, but isn't The Stooges story that they basically didn't have any song-type songs when they went into the studi and Cale kind of made them write the record on the spot? I can't exactly remember.

huh totally never registered that Tom Wilson and Sun Ra worked together! that's nuts

I don't think Cale disliked the Stooges, I think they were just totally unprepared to make an album -- which turned out really well in the end obviously! But the story is that the Stooges just wanted to go into the studio, turn all the way up and GO! And Cale tried to tell them they had to do things differently for recording purposes (a weird thing for the dude who made White Light/White Heat to say, I guess). But in the end, I think he just let them do whatever they wanted and tried to get a good sound out of it. The results speak for themselves!

xpost yeah Tom Wilson is like the unknown legend behind so many amazing artists/records. Even if, as the Velvets would claim, he didn't really do a whole lot in terms of producing their "sound" he still was able to give them the situation where they could create w/o a lot of record company BS.

I know a musician who recently played on a record produced by John Cale. He said he is so laid back and easygoing, and very supportive. Never a harsh word. And after every take, he'd say "That was great. Do it again."

TS: Tom Wilson vs. Tom Dowd (in another thread maybe)

The U2, Coldplay, Imbruglia & James make me doubt the worth of Eno.

Cale's produced less, but his track record is more consistent

I don't know - Eno has higher highs (especially if you include his solo work). Cale worked with mostly better/cooler bands but that doesn't make him a better producer, does it?

Fair point. What's Eno's production like on the 'uncool' records? Is it actually any good, if you get past the hating on the music aspect?

that James shit is unlistenable

His first James production is fantastic wtf – the only interesting thing those janglers ever made.

I'm thinking specifically of Wah Wah

I know a musician who recently played on a record produced by John Cale. He said he is so laid back and easygoing, and very supportive. Never a harsh word. And after every take, he'd say "That was great. Do it again."
He must've mellowed out - here's what Patti Smith had to say about working with Cale.
"My picking John was about as arbitrary as picking Rimbaud. I saw the cover of Illuminations with Rimbaud's face, y'know, he looked so cool, just like Bob Dylan. So Rimbaud became my favorite poet. I looked at the cover of Fear and I said, 'Now there's a set of cheekbones.' ...In my mind I picked him because his records sounded good. But I hired the wrong guy. All I was really looking for was a technical person. Instead, I got a total maniac artist. I went to pick out an expensive watercolor painting and instead I got a mirror. It was really like A Season in Hell, for both of us. But inspiration doesn't always have to be someone sending me half a dozen American Beauty roses. There's a lotta inspiration going on between the murderer and the victim. And he had me so nuts I wound up doing this nine-minute cut ["Birdland"] that transcended anything I ever did before."
(of course, as with most things Patti says, grain of salt, etc.)

marble index and desert shore are some next level stuff, although he was technically the arranger on those, wasn't he? i mean, he totally came up with the sounds, so it doesn't matter what official credit he got imo.

as Shakey points out Cale does have a pretty amazing track record for making amazing debut albums from difficult bands: Stooges, Horses, Modern Lovers, Happy Mondays.

All really odd artists - geniuses, sure, but not the easiest group of people to work with - especially with no existing template for how to translate their live shows into albums.

That's gotta count for something as a producer - you have to be a technician and a football coach too.

All that's holding me back from voting for Cale is Eno's solo stuff and his work on those Talking Heads records. So amazing.

He must've mellowed out

Yes. Cause this guy had nothing but kind words to say about him.

as a solo artist cale >>> eno (cale's probably my favorite musician these days)

but eno prolly has to win on production. I mean, eno IS production. I think cale's impressive production record has more to do with his good taste than anything else. I'm sure cale brought a lot to the records he worked on, but I doubt that he ever had the same importance that eno did in say, 'remain in light'...

Hey has anyone ever heard this? Chunky, Novi & Ernie (by Chunky, Novi and Ernie) (co-produced with Ted Templeman) (Warners) 1973
I've searched around for info on it, but it seems scarce. What in the heck is it!

as a solo artist cale >>> eno...but eno prolly has to win on production.

Yes.

I love that Cale had a job (with Van Dyke Parks!) as an in-house producer at Warner Bros. in the early 70s. Talk about two dudes sure to bring in the smash hits! As Lou said, those were different times.

Cale is so well-loved on ILM (by me too) that I can't imagine him losing to many people in a who's-better-in-music poll, but Eno's really a visionary as a producer - I'd be hard pressed to say what Cale brings to the table as producer. He has good taste, for the most part - great; but Eno seems really to challenge bands to think about their own music & its possibilities. Or he did, anyway. And really, Heroes/Low/Lodger? C'mon, now. even Stooges debut/Horses/Marble Index can't really top that imo

Not to quibble, but he didn't produce Bowie's Berlin Trilogy. Its conceptualist and catalyst, sure, without whom those albums weren't possible, but, really, Tony Visconti deserves his credit.

I think Smith implying that the Velvets had nothing to do with it might have been a little disingenuous, as much as she liked Fear and his cheekbones.

Cale is so well-loved on ILM (by me too) that I can't imagine him losing to many people in a who's-better-in-music poll, but Eno's really a visionary as a producer - I'd be hard pressed to say what Cale brings to the table as producer.

hahaha omg poor eno who will stand up for him!!! c'mon, eno's up there with steely dan/fleetwood mac/james brown on ILM and beat bowie in a vs. boll.

(I mean I agree w/ you on everything...just not the implication that Eno can an underdog on this site)

"I think cale's impressive production record has more to do with his good taste than anything else. I'm sure cale brought a lot to the records he worked on, but I doubt that he ever had the same importance that eno did in say, 'remain in light'"

So true.

cale seems like a dick but there's no arguing with that production discography

Visconti is something of a god to me in all honesty.

x-post to, um, me. I think maybe the Stooges were playing "Smoke on the Water," or some other obvious song, and Cale didn't recognize it and told them to record it!

Don't think Cale's a dick these days - he was taking a lot of drugs in the 70s.

Someone help me out here. I could have sworn there was a story about Cale barely producing the first Stooges record, and in fact hating the band. The story goes that he more or less wasn't paying attention until the band started vamping on some Zeppelin riff, and then he perks up and goes "that's it! record that!" Am I thinking of Cale/Stooges? Modern Lovers? Or is it some other producer/band combo?

It's a story of Cale and The Police. From the liner notes to Message In A Box, referring to the first ever sessions with Andy on guitar:

"Former Velvet Underground bassist John Cale was producing, but he didn't seem to be in quite the right state of mind. So The Police set him a little test. Andy played a well-known Led Zeppelin riff and Cale said, 'Great! You've got it!' The album was promptly aborted..."

Aha! That's where I read it! Thanks.

It was bugging me too, so had to track it down. Tyler was right in the "we only play loud" re: Stooges sessions. There's some great stuff in Please Kill Me, beginning with Ron admitting they weren't good enough to play without extreme volume and ending with Nico giving Iggy the clap.

so glad Cale didn't stain his career by producing a band as fucking horrifyingly bad as the Police

ha! never heard that Police/Cale story, that is awwwwesome.

I love Wrong Way Up.

these types of questions make my head hurt. Cale almost deserves it for Stooges/Horses/Modern Lovers trifecta. did eno really record with Toto? i'm curious what zvuki mu is, too...

Didn't know Eno produced Fear! That's great!
John Cale is maybe my #1 musical idol but really Eno's production is unmatched. He wins for his solo albums alone.

Don't think Cale's a dick these days

Whereas Eno...

I heard/liked "Baby's on Fire" and the arena theme tune, so thought I might like "Another Green World".

But I didn't.

I enjoyed the Live '74 thing though.

^ Crazy man. I love Eno but can never forgive him for U2 (and James)

And really, Heroes/Low/Lodger? C'mon, now. even Stooges debut/Horses/Marble Index can't really top that imo

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Wednesday, 14 October 2009 20:36 (Yesterday)

Visconti produced those albums, not Eno.

Eno's always bugged me as a producer. Sometimes he turns on the Eventide and does amazing things to the drums. Other times he just puts synth pads over everything.

x-post I haven't been able to find the Zvuki Mu album anywhere, legally or illegally (well, not legally for a fair price, at least). It's some weird Russian band, and I assume Eno's production work on it stemmed from his brief relocation to St. Petersburg.

wtf was Eno thinking with Jane Siberry

his work on her record is the most cookie-cutter eno production I've ever heard

Eno's always bugged me as a producer. Sometimes he turns on the Eventide and does amazing things to the drums

ffs any fucker could do this. i could do this. hey cunts, i could produce you better than eno. the sad thing is my name is worthless

Didn't know Eno produced Fear! That's great!
He didn't. He played on it, but isn't the producer ...

those CV's are from wikipedia - probably lots of mistakes

And Cale didn't produce "Marble Index"

Yeah, that's Joe Boyd, right? I mean, I think it's safe to say Cale is a huuuuuge part of that record's sound -- he arranged the whole thing. Boyd wasn't a musician.

marble index was produced by one frazier mohawk, whoever the fuck that is

No, it was Frazier Mohawk, the album was recorded in the US. I think Boyd produced (or co-produced) "Desertshore".

(xpost)!

Frazier Mohawk! That's gotta be a pseudonym, right?

Yeah, check out his Wiki page, it's interesting!

Hm! I think the name Barry Friedman sounds familiar from Buffalo Springfield-type stuff I've read. Interesting (if brief!) career, for sure.

Learnin' stuff on the internet ... IMPORTANT stuff.

And married to Essra Mohawk!

Who also has a wacky career!
http://www.audiophileusa.com/covers400/31679.jpg

the sad thing is my name is worthless

I bet you get a lot of jokes at your expense amirite

but not at his expenses, right?

don't get me started xpost

There are plenty of things Eno does besides process sounds, sing and add synths to songs. Sometimes he holds up signs!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68S9w1gpwCM

Just kidding. The man's done some really great things as a producer.

Also, this NPR piece (I believe) explains that Eno earned his co-writer credit on "Once in a Lifetime" for coming up with the chorus, so ... Eno.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1072131

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

John Cale was also scheduled to produce the Embarrassment, circa 1982. Didn't happen. He did produce an astounding (but unreleased) album by Scottish giants James King & the Lone Wolves about five years later. He was also scheduled to produced the first Pop Group album, but fell out nearly immediately with the band.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

To add to the Canadian content of this thread (besides the Jane Siberry album Eno produced), Cale produced Art Bergmann (ex-Poisoned, ex-Young Canadians), which didn't notice in that listing from the wiki. It was a reasonably good album, but the Siberry one was far better I think, "cookie cutter" qualms above aside.

hmmm..

Eno did very little on that Siberry album, as I recall. Oboe on "Temple"? And produced "Love Is Everything"? I'm pretty sure that album is mostly MPWojewoda. Wasn't it?

And anyone who is "WTF JANE SIBERRY" needs to listen to "The Walking" and apologize.

every mention of jane siberry reminds me of everything reminds me of my dog

Yeah, there's probably as much Michael Brook as MPW on that album, which is kinda Eno-by-proxy really. But yes, there's far less Eno on there than was crowed about at the time of its release. He did produce the single "Sail Across the Water" though, and played guitar and hammond on it. But these slight contributions still outweighed (for me) whatever it was Cale did for Art Bergmann.

NB: I did quite like that Bergmann album too.

just picked up the eno produced zvuki mu album for like 2 bucks. never heard of it before and haven't heard more than the 30 seconds of sampling it in the store. sounded very NDW. i will report back. and maybe eventually digitize the whole thing.