Why does a fretless bass sound different than a fretful one?

?

Also was anyone else ever surprised to find it was an upright bass on those Kate Bush albums and not a fretless or a stick?

fretless is the worst of both worlds imo

i don't know the technical terms for it (i'm sure someone will correct me) but basically with frets you're limited to the notes on the western musical note spectrum (unless you bend strings), with a fretless you can play the "notes between the notes." this also allows for more subtle movement between notes: like if you slide up from G to B, you're not just sliding up G-G#-A-A#-B, you're playing all the notes in between

they probably only used direct sound from the pickups and didn't mic the upright bass at all, which would make it sound more like a fretless electric. hence that thing that appeared in records that delfeayo marsalis produced, "to obtain more wood sound from the bass, this album recorded without usage of the dreaded bass direct"

How do you find the notes on a fretless? Does it have little markers embedded in the neck? Violins don't, that's always puzzled me.

I think there's more to it than that anyway I think. With a fretless one end of the string is formed by your finger pushing directly onto the fretboard, rather than the nice clean edge of the fret; so you should get a blunter, damped sound with a fretless, whereas a fretful bass would have a more pronounced attack phase.

fretless bass is so rad

I wonder the extent to which the timbral difference caused by the fact that frets are metal makes a significant difference.

fretless sounds like a whale humping

xp yeah a lot of its the metal on the frets vs your fingers

fretless is awesome

When you stop a string with fingers against fretboard, the string is motionary at the middle of the stop/fingertip, but as the string vibrates the portion of the string between the middle of the fingertip and the fingers edge rubs against the fretboard with each oscillation. This transmits its own noise, but also excites higher harmonics and slightly mutes the string, leading to a voice much closer to human humming than other strings.

One can adjust the amount of buzz/muting simply by using the fingertip or flat of the finger, and modulate it with pressure.

Then there's all the glissando effects.

The person to speak authoritatively here is Patrick South. IIRC, he currently plays. I just fiddled with one for years.

You find the notes on a fretless the same way you find them on a violin - partly through muscle memory of playing so much, you just *know* where the notes are (even if you play a fretted instrument, you get to the point where you never look at the dots) - and partly because you can *hear* when it's in tune and when it's not.

Ismael, on classical strings as well as fretless, its mostly muscle memory to get very near the right stop, and then one quickly adjusts to get spot on. I suspect vibrato hides a lot of adjustment for the classical players. Intonation can be a bitch for fretless bass players who don't have good mental pitch, as they don't use a lot of overt vibrato.

Then again, there are a lot of bassists like Jack Bruce who prefer fretless simply because the frets get in the way - that's more true after you've played fretless for a while and have to transition to stopping just behind the fret rather than atop.

frets = speed bumps

Would a fretless guitar even be possible? I can't really imagine what chords on such a thing would sound like.

well playing with a slide is kind of like a fretless guitar

a flute with no holes

Maybe a bit like a pedal steel guitar?

a flute with no holes

― am0n, Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:51 PM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is such a sad image

Penny whistle = flute w/o holes.

slide whistles are not sad!

http://www.trivia.se/bilder/questions/10550-20071218001212.jpg

there are a million fretless guitar vids on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjiF4DtDyyA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRBwK8J-5Tw

it sounds pedal steel-ish, but not as cool?

has there ever been a noise punk band that used a pedal steel through a bunch of fucked up distortion and delay pedals? i bet that would be rad.

Would a fretless guitar even be possible? I can't really imagine what chords on such a thing would sound like.

― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:47 PM (11 minutes ago)

Frank Zappa talked in an interview about having one in the mid 70s and fighting to get something useful out of it. I can't remember if his dissatisfaction was in its tone or keeping it in tune or what. You can hear it on "Filthy Habits," possibly one or two other songs.

from what i've heard pedal steel is really, really hard to play well

has there ever been a noise punk band that used a pedal steel through a bunch of fucked up distortion and delay pedals? i bet that would be rad.

― could it be that it was all so shipley? (M@tt He1ges0n), Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:00 PM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i used to DREAM of this in high school

The second clip's got quite a nice sound (not unlike a high bass) but I feel that these guys are taking the easy way out. I want to see barre chords! Power chords! Hammer-ons!

i was also listening to son volt and mmw and happy apple a lot and thought the raddest band ever would be tenor sax, bass, freaky pedal steel, and skittery dave king drumming behind country songs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVNL2Tnv0H4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYc7s7EmtPY

are bar chords easier i wonder

has there ever been a noise punk band that used a pedal steel through a bunch of fucked up distortion and delay pedals?

Ministry, Jesus Built My Hotrod

I take it all back - that AC/DC guy is the worst thing ever.

I would think a fretless gtr wouldn't be all that complicated if you just used an open tuning (a la tons of slide gtr tunes), but it would probably work best as a solo instrument, cuz keeping it in tune with other instruments would be a bitch

hmmm wait I think that Ministry song is just lap steel, not pedal

was gonna say, i've heard a lot of distorted rock lap steel (prob. because it's way easier)

doesn't Tom Carter do this a lot?

http://www.themisunderstood.com/misunderstood-6in.jpg

HI DERE

noise-pedal steel is Heather Leigh Murray's whole schtick.

who dat?

ministry kinda sucks IMO

gbx if we save our pennies we could probably afford dave king's rates!

whaddya know

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1M4ss4yIVA

hell yeah!

ministry kinda sucks IMO

first two albums totally smoke my man

pedal steel noise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bh9US2oikE

ministry kinda sucks IMO

first two albums totally smoke my man

― cialis morissette (goole), Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:44 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ah yeah i don't really know 'em, is that the early stuff that sounds like tuff guy depeche mode or something?

i only really know the shit that was popular in the 90s and i kinda just never wanna hear that kinda music anymore

<3<3<3 heather leigh murray. 'devil if you can hear me' is a fantastic album

tuff guy depeche mode

yes indeed!

I think some of bass on the Kate Bush recordings referred to above were played by a chap called Eberhard Weber who plays a modified Electric Upright and is a solo artist, inna ECM chamber-jazz fashion, he was a big influence on Rothko.

yeah tuff guy depeche mode ministry was great

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIMfdlVGmqM

kinda sounds like whodini fronted by a vampire. not bad!

not to derail the thread but if people are talking about whodini fronted by a vampire I can't help but post this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkE44Axc9vE

vampire whodini is one of the hottest new genres in music IMO

"everyday is halloween" is not familiar to me, is it on one of those albums and i've forgotten?? the fake scratching at 3:20 is great

I have it on a singles comp

lol @ (presumably) fake brit accent

thread needs more Mick Karn IMO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=romEe1ut064

Mick Karn to thread! xpost

what's the scream sample on that ministry song from? super obvious but i can't think of it right now.

Percy muhfukin JONES to thread!

is fretful the correct term? lou reed for some reason can't do anything without a little fretless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmZvzJq9Dms

Ugh I hate fretless as it manifests in Lou.

i hated fretless until i recorded a dude who was an incredible bass player and he coaxed sounds out of this thing that blew my mind

with a fretless, the notes aren't quite as sharp and distinct. Even with a seriously calloused fingertip, you're not pressing the string to the neck as rigidly as a metal bar would, so you get little hints of the notes around the note played, making everything sound a bit vague and ghostly. Right? This is how a music teacher explained it to me once.

distorted rock lap steel
Glenn Ross Campbell of The Misunderstood to thread.

the misunderstood eventually became high tide right? cuz that band owns the zone.

what about slide bass, like morphine

"the misunderstood eventually became high tide right?"

I think they became Juicy Lucy? Or at least Glenn Campbell became Juicy Lucy.

ah it turns out we are both right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Misunderstood

if you haven't heard it, this album is mind blowing:

http://intothemusic.ca/images/uploads/covers/High_Tide_-_Sea_Shanties.JPG

I knew you guys would be able to give me awesome explanations. Thank you! :D

Mick Karn is so awesome! I thought it was funny he played on "Aerial" as, as I noted, I thought it was a fretless on her early stuff.

Basically agree with the first response by Jordan.

mick karn needs a much larger presence on youtube

Glenn Ross Campbell of The Misunderstood to thread.

uh, he already was "to thread" .. that was the pic i posted!

had a conversation with jaxon about kate bush bass just a few weeks back so this thread seems weird! he turned me on to fretless and mick karn and a bunch of rad stuff, including this-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5mVXKiYlmc

I may have mentioned it elsewhere on ILM, but Lou Reed refers to his fretless bassist Fernando Saunders' playing as "Fernandizing." Which always makes me sort of sick to my stomach.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.palomar.edu/kksm/shows/lamont/JACOPASTORIUS.jpg&imgrefurl=http://indicata.blogspot.com/2007/05/links-jaco-pastorius.html&usg=__1PB1xkHuoqAwTbGnyAoD2dPiu8A=&h=354&w=348&sz=27&hl=en&start=2&sig2=_bMBjJ71twagDccOhJFHQQ&um=1&tbnid=kZY3ONcy2nKq7M:&tbnh=121&tbnw=119&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djaco%2Bpastorius%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=dnDeStiYE4HalAfw-pGoAw

the greatest of all fretless bass players

oops, how in the hell do you paste an image? sorry :(

love the image of a fretful bass, just sitting in the corner looking a bit tense and unhappy

while my bass gently, deeply weeps

a flute with no holes

― am0n, Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:51 PM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is such a sad image

― Bobby Wo (max), Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:52 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

~lol

*toot*

**sigh**

http://www.palomar.edu/kksm/shows/lamont/JACOPASTORIUS.jpg

iago- click on 'show formatting help' and it'll tell you how

My bf has a fretless guitar. Tis a modified BC rich copy that he simply knocked the frets out of, and then puttied/sanded up the fretboard .

It actually sounds kind of interesting for a cheapycrap guitar. When you detune it especially youget something akin to a fretless bass sound but not exactly.

slide whistles are not sad!

― Jesus, the Czar of Czars (Shakey Mo Collier),

Depends on whether they're sliding up or down, innit?

Seems like appreciation of fretless is usually tied to whether you think Jaco Pastorius was the greatest thing that ever happened to music or think something else about him.

Glenn Ross Campbell of The Misunderstood to thread.

uh, he already was "to thread" .. that was the pic i posted!

― Plunge Protection Team, Tuesday, October 20, 2009 7:58 PM (Yesterday)

Seems like appreciation of fretless is usually tied to whether you think Jaco Pastorius was the greatest thing that ever happened to music or think something else about him.

Glenn Ross Campbell of The Misunderstood to thread.
uh, he already was "to thread" .. that was the pic i posted!

― Plunge Protection Team, Tuesday, October 20, 2009 7:58 PM (Yesterday)

Oh yeah, so he was, sorry.
― oater to oxidation (James Redd and the Blecchs),

I am not part of some cult of Jaco Pastorius at all, I actually have an aversion to fusion, but come on, that guy was an astonishingly great bass player. have a listen to hejira!

ago- click on 'show formatting help' and it'll tell you how

― psychgawsple, Wednesday, October 21, 2009

and thanks very much, psych! that was very nice of ya

David Gilmour used a lap steel for quite a bit of the slide guitar in Pink Floyd.

Here is another electric solo on a pedal steel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp9852hq0W0

best of both worlds?

http://lordonly.net/Images/John/jt2x99namma2.jpg

when I think of "badass distorto slide guitar" all I can think of is Mclusky's "1956 and All That."

Mick Karn is so awesome!

But didn't he steal all his moves from Percy Jones?

this thread- Fretless bass playing + Japan/Mick Karn/Percy Jones/Ippu-Do/Masami Tsuchiya/YMO/Ryuichi Sakomoto/Bill Nelson- needs much more love